Dungeon finder for Mythic Keys, but with an ELO system or based on Raider IO

[SirCowdog]

No, the problem with MatchMaking is that you have no Control over with who you get grouped.

If you have any kind of system, people with find a way to abuse it.
Even if you have a system that somehow magically can find people with in theory proper skill level, you would still get the problem that so many people will just leave if it looks like it could go something wrong.

I mean even now people leave if they think the dungeon might not be "in time", at a point where they dont loose anything if the dungeon takes 2minutes longer. Imagine they could loose their precious Internal "Skill Rating".

That's what pre-made groups are for. I'm not suggesting to replace the existing LFG tool. I'm saying to implement a system along side that which would rank or score players based on some combination of completion, times, disconnects, lack of completion, etc.

People leaving before time? Their rank gets dinged. People rage-quitting? Their rating drops. This is, in many ways, what happens in arena ranking. You want your rank to go up, you stay until you finish or accept the penalty for quitting.

What this would do is add accountability, which is something that's EXTREMELY lacking under the current system. There's no risk outside of having to spend the time to find another group.

The upside of this is exactly what you said in your first sentence: You don't have control over who you group with. This evens the playing field and eliminates the rampant elitism and over-emphasis on the meta to the exclusion of all else. This is also something the M+ system BADLY needs.

And most of all, if you don't want to deal with the matchmaker at all, you could always form your own team without any of the rules or limits of your matchmaking rank, exactly how you can with any other piece of content. Any sort of ranked matchmaking would be in addition to the current setup. It would not detract from it or hurt it in any meaningful way that I can think of off the top of my head.

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Blizzard matchmaking system would match you with way lower rated player after certain amount of time because the pool is so low (has been this way in all of their game, HOTS and WOW Arena), which is dumb, i'd rather stand for 30 min for a good run than the system forced me to play with rats.

Add a simple slider to the matchmaking to set the lower limit of your group. Or just form your own group. If you don't want to deal with matching, and set your own very specific criteria, then just don't use matchmaking and take advantage of LFG. There's no downside.

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A pairing system based on ilvl would be stupid, but I don’t think that the OP is suggesting a system like that.

It would need to be based on some kind of initial set of factors. Your first 5 or 10 runs in a season to get an initial ranking. Combined with successful completion, timers, deaths, wipes, etc. All of that measured against the iLVL you had for the run to give context of difficulty.

It seems like this should be possible. All these sorts of stats are the kinds of things that blizzard would want for their stupid e-sports push anyway. And Blizzard has more access to and accuracy for this kind of data than any addon like Raider.IO

[Up The Gary]

Nope you elitist players can keep RaiderIO and choke on it for good measure, leave LFD to us noobs.

[The Butt Witch]

Lol, there aren't bad players in raid finder, there are afk-ers because the difficulty is so low, and no one gives a shit that you do, that it's simply impossible to give a shit about putting in any effort, especially if melee.

When I play a ranged character, I honestly do try, but when I play melee, I don't care for running after a boss when nothing matters at all.

[dragnipur]

I'd prefer a system that shows raid progression and dungeon work this season for a player when hovering over his name in the party search. If you can see quickly the number of runs a person has done with each dungeon and how many in-time / depleted keys he completed for each dungeon with the max in-time and max depleted he's done.

That's really what's important here, to be able to tell how much experience a person have and if it's relevant to the dungeon we're trying for or if he/she will be able to adapt thanks to what he/she's done in other dungeons. Having the max depleted key number for each dungeon can tell you what mindset the person can have, something raider.io fails to do.

I thought RIO already has everything you described?Well not when hovering over their names but it is at the site when i go look at it.

[Alkizon]

So, rio and "social" stuff are on discussion table again ...Oh, and some M+ too. I see

5. About dungeons&requirements also M+/modes (+RNG+g.tokens+t/wf) +(+/+)+(+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+)
8. Servers type/org (WM&MMO+changes'soc.psycho.res+auto/subscr) +(+/+/+/+/+)+(+)+(+/+/+/+/+/+)+(+/+/+/+)

All your "rankings" should be in your head and contact list, crutches for making imaginary visibility in working various types of automatic "mixing" systems of "social activity" won't help you anyhow. It doesn't exist in nature of what you're asking for, there're too many unaccounted variables, especially considering that everyone has own its list, you say nonsense. I understand that game puts you in conditions that in every way interfere with social activity, trying to completely replace it with automation and alternative in form of your individual comprehensive separateness (resembles certain form of prison organization), but you need to have strength and courage to insist on your own way, you're not in prison and are mature and educated enough to demand adequate conditions... aren't you?

ps. It may be even, in some sense, is beneficial for them of community being as сongestion of divided individualists, otherwise there could happen that all will demanded same, and then it will be difficult to turn nose out of this fact. And since everyone asks for own stuff and there is no united front, so opposition either doesn't exist, or completely powerless.

from here
God.. You know what? I'm Sorry! Excuse me that got into your discussion! You can continue it until the second coming of Arthas! <url> Until you start read=listening to each other, understand each other, you won't get anywhere. While community won't come out more or less as united front with their wishes - all this is useless.

from here
you can't please everyone, or...ither..., so you just play off of players with each other and this is one of main reasons why community is toxic.

[LanToaster]

What this would do is add accountability, which is something that's EXTREMELY lacking under the current system. There's no risk outside of having to spend the time to find another group.

This is something I agree with you. Sadly I dont know any way to create accountability without opening the door for even more Toxicity, abuse and exploits.

[owbu]

I think Blizzard has learned over the years that players are willing to accept a whole lot more failure if they have control over who is and isn't in their group.

They also learned that putting content into the lf interface means that LF-only players will find it and then expect it to be achieveable with whoever gets put into your group. Or else they complain until its nerfed. See "Dungeons are hard!"

So I think there is a very good reason why we are looking for groups the way we currently are.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Add a simple slider to the matchmaking to set the lower limit of your group. Or just form your own group. If you don't want to deal with matching, and set your own very specific criteria, then just don't use matchmaking and take advantage of LFG. There's no downside.

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With 1m playerbase left this is not possible, HOTS playerbase were asking filtered matchmaking and the devs cant respond because its just not possible, DOTA2 playerbase is 100 times bigger than Hots thats why they can pull this off.

Armchair developer like you think everything can be fixed with filters and option.

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Add a simple slider to the matchmaking to set the lower limit of your group. Or just form your own group. If you don't want to deal with matching, and set your own very specific criteria, then just don't use matchmaking and take advantage of LFG. There's no downside.

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With 1m playerbase left this is not possible, HOTS playerbase were asking filtered matchmaking and the devs cant respond because its just not possible, DOTA2 playerbase is 100 times bigger than Hots thats why they can pull this off.

Armchair developer like you think everything can be fixed with filters and option.

Raiderio is better because all of the players option is on your hand, rats playing disc priest with 900 io wont get queued with you over 1200 resto druid because "its his turn"

[Qnubi]

Players refuse to get better at the game yet want the gear when they don't need it.

Wrong, people don't get better because the game does not force them to be. To fix "bad players" you need to force them to use their abilities. There needs to be leveling content that one shots you if you don't purge/interrupt/stun, not once along the way, but constantly so it turns into muscle memory. Every class has one of the 3 ways to stop a cast/skill, but they are not required to get to max level nor to get gear. The game is not actively punishing players that ignore these skills. Instead, the game makes healers and tanks WAY TO STRONG so that dps simply can mindlessly AoE and DPS with little consequence unless you go to the absolute high-end content mythic raiding and m15+ keys. Sadly you can indeed finish a m10 dungeon without any stuns, interrupts etc. and just brute-force your way to the end, if it's not in time, who cares, still 2/5 people will get 430 loot guaranteed regardless if they earned it or not. And after a couple weeks or months even the worst player will slowly accumulate gear that makes him look "decent", when in reality he is still as good as he was when he started leveling his class, and why? Because Blizzard is to blame for the state of the game/players, they make the rules, they need to act.

Once Blizzard tried to encourage the use of interrupts by rewarding you with +10% damage on some classes, or resources for others. Wrong approach, a lazy player will ignore it and just think "will do without, no need for minor DPS increase". They need to PUNISH players with death, over and over and over again. Humans remember pain/sadness extremely well, and will try to avoid it if possible in the future. Also, Blizzard needs to introduce personal interrupts so it ONLY punishes the person not interrupting. So, for example mob X does a cast, everyone but lazy bob interrupts it (the cast is personal, so the cast bar is personal for everyone), lazy bob dies, the others survive. Trust me, lazy bob will soon realize that interrupting is a better idea than being lazy. Blizzard can also, when introducing this mechanic, increase repairing by x10 from deaths that are avoidable (interrupt are personal) and your own fault. Lazy bob will soon understand that being lazy is unsustainable.

[The Butt Witch]

Wrong, people don't get better because the game does not force them to be. To fix "bad players" you need to force them to use their abilities. There need to be leveling content that one shots you if you don't purge/interrupt/stun, not once along the way, but constantly so it turns into muscle memory. Every class has one of the 3 ways to stop a cast/skill, but they are not required to get to max level nor to get gear. The game is not actively punishing players that ignore these skills. Instead, the game makes healers and tanks WAY TO STRONG so that dps simply can mindlessly AoE and DPS with little consequence unless you go to the absolute high-end content mythic raiding and m15+ keys. Sadly you can indeed finish a m10 dungeon without any stuns, interrupts etc. and just brute-force your way to the end, if it's not in time, who cares, still 2/5 people will get 430 loot guaranteed regardless if they earned it or not. And after a couple weeks or months even the worst player will slowly accumulate gear that makes him look "decent", when in reality he is still as good as he was when he started leveling his class, and why? Because Blizzard is to blame for the state of the game/players, they make the rules, they need to act.

If you're taking after Asmongold, he's an idiot when he says the game should be more hardcore. Wildstar was more hardcore, and it died because most players wanted none of that shit.

[Skildar]

I thought RIO already has everything you described?Well not when hovering over their names but it is at the site when i go look at it.

how many people go to the site to check your details when making a group? Whereas almost every one using raiderio does so by using the addon and only visits its own page to check its own progression and points

[Asrialol]

Imagine thinking raider io is a definitive way of determining skill level.

Legit every time I've invited someone with a shit score (below 1k this season) the player has been absolute garbage. Then again, I've seen people with a low 1500 score using their interrupt once in a shrine key. And me beating dps on damage done to explosives as a healer, etc.

The chances of a player with a decent score of 3k+ past season has a 99% chance of having more of a clue than a sub 2k player, though.

[Skildar]

The problem with that is the same with RaiderIO, you dont see what happened in the dungeon. Is the person at fault? Or was it bad luck?
If you do these kinds of Metrics you will have so many people leaving your Group if it looks like it could negativly Affect their score.
Which makes the entire thing more of a Cesspool.

It doesnt really come down to Skill, but to expectation, if 5 people with different expectations come together its the recipe for disaster.
The right and proper thing is, to create (a) community(s) where likeminded people can do their stuff.
A guildmate e.g. does that and he has no Problem with the keys he wants to run.

Thanks and what I've described answers every bit of problem you're exposing.
unfinished key not taken into account, and more information about the number of keys completed (depleted and achieved) to make sure you can party with people sharing a similar mindset as yours.

[Qnubi]

If you're taking after Asmongold, he's an idiot when he says the game should be more hardcore. Wildstar was more hardcore, and it died because most players wanted none of that shit.

So a 4 second cast to interrupt is considered hardcore? Players are simply unaware or too lazy to press it. Many don't even know they have the ability to do so, they never needed it because the game does not show them what happens when you actually SHOULD be interrupting.

[The Butt Witch]

how many people go to the site to check your details when making a group? Whereas almost every one using raiderio does so by using the addon and only visits its own page to check its own progression and points

Tanks and healers do because they know they're rare and special for enjoying such crap roles, so they will only accept to spend their precious time with the best of the best, and if by any chance during the dungeon it seems the timer won't allow for two chests, they instantly bail.

[czarek]

RIO is bullshit. DF for MYTH+ also. DF for MYTH 0 is good idea or just remove heroic diff for 5 mans ><

[klaps_05]

Why would a high level player use an ELO based dungeon finder system at all? Arena matching is based on a preformed team. Good players want to play with good players. Nobody wants to play with a bad player.

Lets say the system is added:

- top players know who the top players are so they will only group with them, just like PvP
- solo rated queue doesnt exist, so you still need to form your groups
- your ELO/r.io can be looked up, so nobody would group with you to queue if its low
- lets say you can queue as 2 or 3 people out of 5 - you will either have to carry the run or get carried, both cases there are people who wont enjoy it
- how would it work - you get grouped and instantly put in the dungeon? then when do you discuss how you will pull, which route, when to hero, etc?
- would you get punished for just leaving groups u dont like? what if you are the class that nobody likes and just everyone else leaves? you aint playing much then

Lower than 10 keys can be easily farmed and you have to be tremendously bad at the game to fail them.
Medium range keys people would prefer to make their own party as it allows them to pick the people.
High range keys are done by people who know each other.

R.io matching also doesnt make much sense. What happens when you get grouped with 3 casters as DPS, one of which is a demo lock? Even a low Shrine would be a nightmare then. What if you get a resto shaman as a healer? Sure, its doable, but its a pain and a moment come when people ask themselves would I rather sit 15 min with deserter debuff and try again or try to finish the run with a resto shaman? What if you get Tol dagor with no rogue or Raging week with no druid/hunter?

[SirCowdog]

This is something I agree with you. Sadly I dont know any way to create accountability without opening the door for even more Toxicity, abuse and exploits.

How would a server-side ranking system be abused? How would it be exploited? What would cause it to increase toxicity beyond what already exists with raider.IO?

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With 1m playerbase left this is not possible, HOTS playerbase were asking filtered matchmaking and the devs cant respond because its just not possible, DOTA2 playerbase is 100 times bigger than Hots thats why they can pull this off.

Armchair developer like you think everything can be fixed with filters and option.

To be fair, you didn't actually provide any reason why it couldn't be done. You just used an example of HotS not being able to do it, and we know for a fact that HotS had its funding and dev team size drastically reduced. HotS is not WoW. The budget, dev team, and experience are all far larger for WoW.

And if it's so impossible, how is it that a 3rd party developer behind raider.IO can come up with a scoring system? Are you telling me Blizzard couldn't do better with a larger team, better data, and more money?

Raiderio is better because all of the players option is on your hand, rats playing disc priest with 900 io wont get queued with you over 1200 resto druid because "its his turn"

Then keep using raider.IO and form your own groups, and stay out of the matchmaking system. Why is this a problem?

[Kumorii]

Even though I love ELO systems because it's one of the most fair ways to determine skill. It will just bring complaints of ELO-hell from retards who don't understand probability and how ELO works.

Doubt blizzard will introduce it since all of their games basically only shows wins, they don't want players to feel bad which means they have their own version.

[MasterMirror]

Raider.IO defines the "skill" of a player? For real?