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  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Theoris View Post
    Man, Valeera's got some huge... shoulderplates.
    I was gonna say Hair... myself. xD

  2. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    Nathrezim and Dreadlord are the same thing. Also, contrary to the Eredar, the Nathrezim always were demons.
    Legion introduced a Good Holy /lightforged Model for the Nathrezim in the Paladin / Priest Class hall stories.

    Edit: found the name. Lothraxion and is a Pally Combat ally.
    Last edited by Shadowsgrace; 2019-08-02 at 06:31 PM.

  3. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    -snip-
    Almost took the bait, but the third paragraph gave it away.

  4. #124
    Scarab Lord Frontenac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsgrace View Post
    Legion introduced a Good Holy /lightforged Model fo the Nathrezim in the Paladin / Priest Class hall stories.

    Edit: found the name. Lothraxion and is a Pally Combat ally.
    I know that. He remains a Nathrezim and a demon nonetheless.
    "Je vous répondrai par la bouche de mes canons!"

  5. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Kralljin View Post
    Almost took the bait, but the third paragraph gave it away.
    Not bait. (Well someone was baiting I guess.) Why do you think back in the day people would bust a nut over seeing a women's ankle? Valeera clearly would had a profound impact on his budding sexuality.

  6. #126
    The Unstoppable Force Friendlyimmolation's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by qwerty123456 View Post
    Not bait. (Well someone was baiting I guess.) Why do you think back in the day people would bust a nut over seeing a women's ankle? Valeera clearly would had a profound impact on his budding sexuality.
    unfortunately for Anduin, Valeera's last name isn't Windrunner.
    Quote Originally Posted by WoWKnight65 View Post
    That's same excuse from you and so many others on this website and your right some of threads do bully high elf fans to a point where they might end up losing their minds to a point of a mass shooting.
    Holy shit lol

  7. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Firstly, boring and bland don't mean the same thing. You can think something is boring, which is an opinion - but that doesn't make it bland. Anduin objectively is not bland. Secondly, your argument is based off a false premise, Anduin can do and has done wrong. He is not perfect and the story has never painted him as such - and the whole "bad actions hurt his bones thing" is another example (human potential being another one) of very minor lore details and lines being completely blown out of proportion from screechers who need to feel constantly incensed for some reason.
    Firstly, your argument is built on non-existent foundation.

    Bland: lacking strong features or characteristics and therefore uninteresting.
    Boring: not interesting; tedious.

    Hmmmmmmm...

    And for someone supposedly making mistakes, those supposed mistakes of his are weirdly enough never acknowledged or addressed by people around him. Instead everyone fawns over him and treats him like the best thing since sliced bread.

    Also, the whole magical bones thing has been mentioned multiple times throughout Before the Storm. It has been acknowledged by multiple characters around him throughout that story, all of whom were making a big deal out of it. It played a pivotal role in Anduin's decision in the culmination of BtS. Your claim that it's a very minor detail is flat out bogus, making your further remark about "screechers" rather meaningless. And even if it was a minor detail, which the story clearly does not treat as such, that still wouldn't have any bearing on whether or not a character that always knows what's the right thing to do because his bone spider sense will tingle to warn him if he as much as sneezes without covering his mouth is as bland as it gets.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Anduin shouldn't be able to move from Garrosh in 5.1 - he was saved by Velen's magic, in a way, he is held together by the Light - is it so unreasonable that actions or thoughts adverse to the very force keeping him alive and mobile causes him some level of discomfort? Now - you don't have to like that or think it's interesting, and that's fine - but that doesn't make it bad writing or 'bland'. It just doesn't.
    Most of Anduin's healing came from local Mistweavers and the waters of the Vale. Velen only performed the initial healing. The idea that Light is keeping him alive has nothing to stand on. If that's the case, why does no one ever claim that in BtS when his bones are often the topic? Not even the Light users around him? And why are you interjecting whether this is unreasonable or not (which it's not, because your premise is flawed to say the least)? That wasn't the topic. The topic was that a character who can do no wrong because he has an in-built moral compass is shit as hell.


    Quote Originally Posted by Bennett View Post
    Your opinions =/= objective truth
    I wonder if you realize that this works both ways...
    Last edited by Mehrunes; 2019-08-02 at 06:51 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Frontenac View Post
    I know that. He remains a Nathrezim and a demon nonetheless.
    By that logic then, are Draenei still Eredar?

  9. #129
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsgrace View Post
    By that logic then, are Draenei still Eredar?
    They're of the Eredar race, yes - but they don't like the label of "Eredar" anymore, as the Eredar are to a one a demonic species corrupted by Sargeras' power. Not too dissimilar from the High/Blood Elf split, really - both sets of people are High Elves, but one has changed their name to Blood Elves and joined the Horde while the rest maintain the old name and continue to associate with the Alliance. In this case the Eredar also became demonic, to boot. I guess it might be more technically correct to say the Draenei are what the Eredar were, before Sargeras came along.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  10. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    They're of the Eredar race, yes - but they don't like the label of "Eredar" anymore, as the Eredar are to a one a demonic species corrupted by Sargeras' power. Not too dissimilar from the High/Blood Elf split, really - both sets of people are High Elves, but one has changed their name to Blood Elves and joined the Horde while the rest maintain the old name and continue to associate with the Alliance. In this case the Eredar also became demonic, to boot. I guess it might be more technically correct to say the Draenei are what the Eredar were, before Sargeras came along.
    Yes I get this, but I was using it as an example, when I brought up Lothraxion, the other person said "He remains a Nathrezim and a demon nonetheless." even though being the complete opposite end of the spectrum from Nathrezim, just as Draenei are to Eredar.

  11. #131
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsgrace View Post
    Yes I get this, but I was using it as an example, when I brought up Lothraxion, the other person said "He remains a Nathrezim and a demon nonetheless." even though being the complete opposite end of the spectrum from Nathrezim, just as Draenei are to Eredar.
    The Nathrezim are one of a handful of races who are naturally demonic, born in the Twisting Nether out of the chaos of Light and Void energies and capable of reincarnating or resurrecting there if slain outside of Nether. In the WoW universe "demonic" is more a template than a race - there are several naturally demonic races: Nathrezim, Sayaad (presumably), Shivarran, Annihilan (Pit Lord), Mo'arg, Overfiends (presumably), and Void hounds. Natural demons that serve the Legion do so after being enthralled by ease of access to (and addiction from) Fel energies. Lothraxion is a demon, a Nathrezim, but he doesn't serve the Legion and has had his addiction to Fel supplanted by being infused with the Light instead. Eredar weren't originally born demons, they were made into them, which is where the bulk of the Legion's current demonic stock hails from - their demonic state being a "gift" bestowed upon their races or species by the Legion's commanders or Sargeras himself.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  12. #132
    The Insane Thage's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by RangerDaz View Post
    Calia's model is inspired on Jaina Pre BfA model with a new HD hairstyle and some recoloring. Check the eyes:

    ...

    My bet is on a recolored Jaina
    Er, no. Calia visibly uses the new female human model as her base model. Jaina's pre-BFA model was designed in MoP, and was itself based off her WotLK model, both of which far predate the updated models from WoD.
    Be seeing you guys on Bloodsail Buccaneers NA!



  13. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    The Nathrezim are one of a handful of races who are naturally demonic, born in the Twisting Nether out of the chaos of Light and Void energies and capable of reincarnating or resurrecting there if slain outside of Nether. In the WoW universe "demonic" is more a template than a race - there are several naturally demonic races: Nathrezim, Sayaad (presumably), Shivarran, Annihilan (Pit Lord), Mo'arg, Overfiends (presumably), and Void hounds. Natural demons that serve the Legion do so after being enthralled by ease of access to (and addiction from) Fel energies. Lothraxion is a demon, a Nathrezim, but he doesn't serve the Legion and has had his addiction to Fel supplanted by being infused with the Light instead. Eredar weren't originally born demons, they were made into them, which is where the bulk of the Legion's current demonic stock hails from - their demonic state being a "gift" bestowed upon their races or species by the Legion's commanders or Sargeras himself.
    Fair enough, but couldn't one surmise that the light that supplanted the Fel addiction, is a "gift" also. Making him a new classification, if he is the 1st "light Demon"?

  14. #134
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Shadowsgrace View Post
    Fair enough, but couldn't one surmise that the light that supplanted the Fel addiction, is a "gift" also. Making him a new classification, if he is the 1st "light Demon"?
    You could, but it's never really made explicit. I would definitely say Lothraxion's addiction to Fel has been removed and replaced by the Light in some sense, but I don't know if that goes as far to make him an entirely new species as it were, non-demonic or otherwise. Like the Lightforged are still technically the species they were prior (Turalyon is still Human, Fareeya is still Draenei, etc. etc.), Lothraxion would still seem to be a demonic Nathrezim and probably still capable of resurrection in the Nether, but he's attuned to and an adherent of the Light instead of a servant of Sargeras and the Legion.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  15. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by Lei View Post
    Maybe there is a reason behind why this specific undead form was chosen. maybe they intentionally don't want to wash together this form (Calia's) with the original one. In any way, the regular undead lore will benefit from this, someone sometime will have to explain the difference between Sylvanas' people and this thing (Calia). Just like with Magni.
    The Forsaken only suffer from Calia's presence, regardless of which side she's on. Her very existence rebuffs the thing they were named after, i.e their being Forsaken by Lordaeron and the Light. The least damaging course is to have her lead her own Alliance holy undead, which would still mean offloading Lordaeronian identity to a new race after being formative to the Forsaken until a shitty tie-in book.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  16. #136
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    The Forsaken only suffer from Calia's presence, regardless of which side she's on. Her very existence rebuffs the thing they were named after, i.e their being Forsaken by Lordaeron and the Light. The least damaging course is to have her lead her own Alliance holy undead, which would still mean offloading Lordaeronian identity to a new race after being formative to the Forsaken until a shitty tie-in book.
    I think that's a little much - Calia's very presence or existence being deleterious to the Forsaken? She's not the first non-Forsaken undead to exist, she probably won't be the last either. I would even go so far to say that a "Lightforged Forsaken" variant race would be a problem lore-wise, but I don't think that exists to Calia simply existing in a vacuum, as it were. If Calia doesn't go on to be progenitor of her own Forsaken race then she really doesn't effect the Forsaken on any level, unless she plans on contending with Sylvanas somehow. That might even be a good thing at the end of the day, depending on the story that gets told. Although I think a fight between Calia and Sylvanas is likely to end in Sylvanas' victory in short order, as Calia isn't really any kind of combat-oriented character.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  17. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    I think that's a little much - Calia's very presence or existence being deleterious to the Forsaken? She's not the first non-Forsaken undead to exist, she probably won't be the last either. I would even go so far to say that a "Lightforged Forsaken" variant race would be a problem lore-wise, but I don't think that exists to Calia simply existing in a vacuum, as it were. If Calia doesn't go on to be progenitor of her own Forsaken race then she really doesn't effect the Forsaken on any level, unless she plans on contending with Sylvanas somehow. That might even be a good thing at the end of the day, depending on the story that gets told. Although I think a fight between Calia and Sylvanas is likely to end in Sylvanas' victory in short order, as Calia isn't really any kind of combat-oriented character.
    BTS has already caused inordinate harm to the Forsaken for no benefit except pushing characters that had no prior contact with them and are antithetical to their themes, namely Calia and Anduin.

    Calia is especially jarring because by her core conceit of being the flawless returning queen of a bunch of sad victims she does harm no matter which faction she's attached to. If Calia makes her own defecting holy undead then that makes the Forsaken as a whole a more one-dimensional race because we know that their issues with the Light can easily be resolved and are self-inflicted and likewise that they are not really Forsaken because there's an all-loving figure who will accept them whenever they feel like it. Such an allied race would invariably have to focus on Lordaeronian identity over prior themes to stand out and for the Forsaken to be distinct they'd have to ditch an important part of their identity to see this done. To create such a race, the Forsaken would have to lose out.

    This is magnified if she becomes Forsaken leader because instead of only some themes being removed, leaving two races blander than one would be, we have one that is worse than both.
    Last edited by Super Dickmann; 2019-08-02 at 08:14 PM.
    Dickmann's Law: As a discussion on the Lore forums becomes longer, the probability of the topic derailing to become about Sylvanas approaches 1.

    Tinkers will be the next Class confirmed.

  18. #138
    Moderator Aucald's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    BTS has already caused inordinate harm to the Forsaken for no benefit except pushing characters that had no prior contact with them and are antithetical to their themes, namely Calia and Anduin.
    What exactly are their themes in this context?

    Quote Originally Posted by Super Dickmann View Post
    Calia is especially jarring because by her core conceit of being the flawless returning queen of a bunch of sad victims she does harm no matter which faction she's attached to. If Calia makes her own defecting holy undead then that makes the Forsaken as a whole a more one-dimensional race because we know that their issues with the Light can easily be resolved and are self-inflicted and likewise that they are not really Forsaken because there's an all-loving figure who will accept them whenever they feel like it. Such an allied race would invariably have to focus on Lordaeronian identity over prior themes to stand out and for the Forsaken to be distinct they'd have to ditch an important part of their identity to see this done. To create such a race, the Forsaken would have to lose out.

    This is magnified if she becomes Forsaken leader because instead of only some themes being removed, leaving two races blander than one would be, we have one that is worse than both.
    How is Calia "flawless," or even a returning queen? Even assuming the process that created Calia could be replicated en masse, how does that change or otherwise effect those Forsaken who remain loyal to Sylvanas or the greater Horde? The Forsaken were already somewhat one-dimensional in their nearly monolithic worship of Sylvanas as their Banshee Queen, lacking much in the way of nuance or variety - creating an additional level of nuance beyond zealots loyal to Sylvanas can really only be a good thing for the Forsaken as a whole as it would require the more zealous individuals to actually explicate their rationale for their beliefs and perspectives. Proprietorship of Lordaeron has always been one of their themes, insofar as I'm concerned - as part of the crux of their issues with the living is the idea that Lordaeron belongs to the living, and that the Forsaken (being dead) have no claim on it or anything else, really. I don't think recognition of this state really harms them in any real capacity.

    As for her being a Forsaken leader, that's a pretty big "if." She could never rule alongside Sylvanas, so if she were to become a leader it would need to be of an opposed faction - and just like what happened at the Gathering, I would doubt she would see much in the way of support. Possibly if Sylvanas dies or is otherwise stuffed in the cooler post-BfA, but even that would be a long row to hoe for Calia's ascent.
    "We're more of the love, blood, and rhetoric school. Well, we can do you blood and love without the rhetoric, and we can do you blood and rhetoric without the love, and we can do you all three concurrent or consecutive. But we can't give you love and rhetoric without the blood. Blood is compulsory. They're all blood, you see." ― Tom Stoppard, Rosencrantz and Guildenstern are Dead

  19. #139
    Calia offers a new path for the Forsaken who choose to follow her, which opens up an interesting conflict within the faction. Forsaken are characters that have universally lived two different lives, one as a citizen of Lordaeron (until death) and another as Forsaken. They have bonds, loyalties and memories from both lives. The question of whether they would prefer their current unlife or a semblance of their former life is potentially a strong character building one.

    It seems most of this discussion is really dancing around the idea that you guys don't want them to move beyond Sylvanas or change at all. They're already one dimensional, what's to be lost? The ones that stick with the Horde (if Blizz goes that route) won't change. The Blood Elves didn't suddenly collapse because the Alliance took in the Void Elves, why would it be different for the Forsaken?

    The worry of whether Calia would lead the Horde Forsaken is I think a premature one. If anybody is to lead the Horde's Forsaken in future, my guess is that it's going to be the character they made this expansion to mirror Sylvanas.
    Last edited by Niroshi; 2019-08-02 at 09:21 PM.

  20. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by Aucald View Post
    As for her being a Forsaken leader, that's a pretty big "if." She could never rule alongside Sylvanas, so if she were to become a leader it would need to be of an opposed faction - and just like what happened at the Gathering, I would doubt she would see much in the way of support. Possibly if Sylvanas dies or is otherwise stuffed in the cooler post-BfA, but even that would be a long row to hoe for Calia's ascent.
    She'll become the Forsaken leader once Sylvanas dies or gets dethroned (which she will because BfA is a blatant rehash of MoP) and she's the only undead that could lead them while also fitting the "let's sing kumbaya with the Alliance and worship our human masters no matter how many times they attack us out of the blue" lesson of Pandaria Horde was supposed to learn in MoP. It's not like Blizzard is a newcomer to hamfisting nonsense no matter how nonsensical it is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

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