1. #45581
    Maybe I'm missing something from the conversation, but wouldn't a system where you can press whatever the fuck you want in whatever order be very shallow?

    And if you don't like the combo system then Bard, Summoner, and Black Mage are all 100% combo free. Red Mage's combo is only a finisher that you use infrequently. Machinist's combo generally isn't spammed repeatedly and can be interrupted with other abilities.

    There's definitely options if you don't like combos.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Hotshot/Air Anchor, Reassemble, Gauss Round, Spread shot, Hypercharge, heat blast, rook/queen, rook overdrive/pile bunker, wildfire/detonator, richochet, auto crossbow, barrel stabilizer, flamethrower, bioblaster, tactician

    14 without tact or the combo, 15 with tact, 18 with all of it.
    You generally don't want to ever use Pile Bunker manually since the Queen will fire it off on her own when the duration times out. You'd only do it if the boss was going to transition or something.
    Last edited by Wyrt; 2019-08-04 at 10:46 AM.

  2. #45582
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post


    You generally don't want to ever use Pile Bunker manually since the Queen will fire it off on her own when the duration times out. You'd only do it if the boss was going to transition or something.
    You do, whenever raid buffs are about to run out if you missmanaged the summoning.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-08-04 at 12:18 PM.

  3. #45583
    Bloodsail Admiral Sharby's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    As someone that just plays both WoW and FF14 (and see flaws in both) I always find the silly little fights both communities have since apparently you're only allowed to play one game or something even if half the complaints about 1 game can apply to the other just as much.

    See I agree with you, my only issue is that most of the criticism I see for FF14 is just stupid in my opinion, nobody ever talks about the multitude of issues the game has that are actually valid to critique.

    Some that come to mind:

    -The game's horrible UI and accessibility issues
    -The 1-50 experience being so terrible I rarely ever tell someone to play the game without dumping a ton of warnings on them
    -ARR
    -Classes being borderline unplayable until a certain level (Looking at Dragoon which doesnt get its first aoe until 45)
    -The transmog system



    Nobody ever said the game was perfect, its just hard to ever have a constructive conversation about it because most ppl just say shit like 'lul its anime', 'lul the story isnt that good its overrated.'
    Honorary member of the Baine Fanclub, the only member really.

  4. #45584
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Dunno what you mean by Dragon Sight being clunky and requiring addons to use, nothing more to say besides I disagree with that.
    Having to, whilst in combat, target another player, use Dragon Sight, then switch back to your original target whilst also remaning within 12y of the other player while you will be moving around for positionals (And potentially so will they) is a lot of actions required for a simple +10% damage buff.

    It wouldn't be as bad to activate if Mouseover Macros were more functional, but as things stand even activating the skill can be something of a chore, especially in chaotic boss fights where you're probably not keeping a close eye on other players.

    There are simply too many button presses required to activate it, and the ability itself has conditions that are too restrictive for it to be anything but clunky. It's just not a well designed or thought out skill.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    I think its very refreshing to have actual impactful utility because it gives more avenues of value to the game instead of just how fast your class kills the boss which is something WoW is seriously failing at.
    I don't consider Battle Voice or Chain Strat etc to be impactful utility. They're just damage buffs. Very good ones mind you, but all they add to your group is overall damage. They don't enable new stratergies or aproaches that you couldn't do without them.

    I think of impactful utility as being skills like the Warlocks Portal in WoW. It offers a unique solution to potential problems that only a Warlock can bring. Or a Rogues Shroud of Concealment, which is a solution to problems that only a Rogue can bring. A Druid's Stampeding Roar is extra utility, so is a Paladins BoP etc etc. Those are utility skills outside of just damage that affect how you want to approach certain mechanics and problems. FF14 doesn't really have anything comparable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Honestly, the false, sickly sweet stench of acceptance of bad play coupled with "you mustn't criticize anyone because that would cause bad feels and is so toxic!11" has been my #1 pet peeve with this games community both ingame and in the forums since day 1.

    You know WoWs dudes may go over board now and then but at least they are honest and say it to your face if you're doing sth wrong.
    It's partly why I miss DOTA sometimes. People would call you out on your mistakes. None stop. I realise to some that may have seemed like a very hostile environment, but I generally found that things were delivered with the best of intentions and the worst of language. The rest of your team wanted to win, and if you were constantly dragging them down they'd make sure you knew about it.

    I know the preconception is that even the tinyest mistake in DOTA leads to a torrent of rage spewed in your direction, but usually it's more constructive. Like "Buy Dust!", or "Ward the rune" and other short little instructions. Just small corrections to how someone is playing a lane, or a match up ect are enough to help put your team back into winning shape.

    FF14 on the other hand doesn't really take much to "win" at. As a result people tend to keep that same kind of feedback to themselves, so people who really need to know that they're dragging the rest of your group down often go without being called out on their big mistakes. Because no one is willing to challenge them small mistakes, they just keep going further and further with their bad habits until they baloon into an outright bad player.

    When these players do eventually get called out on their bad play, they automatically go into being defencive. Afterall, they're max level and have successfully completed all of the hard content, they're obviously doing something right. They don't realise that they've often got where they are in spite of their play, not because of it.

    As a community, FF14 needs to realise that helping to correct another player isn't some boundry you can never cross without ending up being toxic. We need to be willing and able to help fellow players without being afraid of the backlash. Do it early enough and you avoid all the hurt feelings and ego bruising that go along with doing it later on in a players career.

  5. #45585
    Quote Originally Posted by Wyrt View Post
    Maybe I'm missing something from the conversation, but wouldn't a system where you can press whatever the fuck you want in whatever order be very shallow?

    And if you don't like the combo system then Bard, Summoner, and Black Mage are all 100% combo free. Red Mage's combo is only a finisher that you use infrequently. Machinist's combo generally isn't spammed repeatedly and can be interrupted with other abilities.

    There's definitely options if you don't like combos.



    You generally don't want to ever use Pile Bunker manually since the Queen will fire it off on her own when the duration times out. You'd only do it if the boss was going to transition or something.
    You end up using it a lot on trash honestly because you can get that last big hit on the mob before it dies.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    See I agree with you, my only issue is that most of the criticism I see for FF14 is just stupid in my opinion, nobody ever talks about the multitude of issues the game has that are actually valid to critique.

    Some that come to mind:

    -The game's horrible UI and accessibility issues
    -The 1-50 experience being so terrible I rarely ever tell someone to play the game without dumping a ton of warnings on them
    -ARR
    -Classes being borderline unplayable until a certain level (Looking at Dragoon which doesnt get its first aoe until 45)
    -The transmog system



    Nobody ever said the game was perfect, its just hard to ever have a constructive conversation about it because most ppl just say shit like 'lul its anime', 'lul the story isnt that good its overrated.'
    Good lord this games UI needs a full rework, all the times you can't do something because you're doing something else is annoying. For the love of god let me accept a party invite while I'm in my retainer!
    I honestly though don't find 1-50 to be so bad, we just had someone run through it and they also really liked it (it can be a bit slow until level 15ish but that's like a couple of hours), to me it's the post 50 quests that need some help, and I assume that's what you mean by ARR.
    I don't know what to say really about the classes thing, it's like the opposite problem wow has, they give you too many abilities too early and then you have nothing to look forward to. Maybe if all classes got aoe around 8 like the physical ranged classes it would be better for dungeons.
    FF could definitely take a page from wow's transmog book, but I do have to remind everyone that that WoW's system was complete ass for a few expansions too, so there's hope.

  6. #45586
    Quote Originally Posted by StrawberryZebra View Post
    Having to, whilst in combat, target another player, use Dragon Sight, then switch back to your original target whilst also remaning within 12y of the other player while you will be moving around for positionals (And potentially so will they) is a lot of actions required for a simple +10% damage buff.
    You're not wrong that Dragon Sight can be clunky. I have a macro set up for the specific party position that my static member who gets my tether (our MNK) is in, and a mouseover macro on another keybind in case we oopsie and I can't/ shouldn't give it to him.

    To me, the biggest issue is how it doesn't go off if your target isn't in range, but a quick talk with my Monk and we always enter a fight the same way, so that problem disappears as well.

    If a PUG in a raid or dungeon outranges the 5% buff I'm giving them because they're ranged and want to be in Egypt, that's their loss tbh. And if I can never reach them, and I mention it nicely, and they don't adjust? Well, I'm always in range to tether the tank :P

    Again, not that I disagree with you, because it's definitely clunky. But thought I'd offer a few suggestions that help make it more bearable for me.

  7. #45587
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Usually what frustrates me the most is that XIV fans are REALLY big fans. Even around here, a lot of discussions that contain any critique at all turn into people accusing you of "just hating" and "why don't you just leave".

    I love the game, but dear lord does it have some issues. Surely we can talk about them sometimes!
    I feel like half of the conversations going on here are always complaining about the same few things for the last thousand pages. Some people also don't even care to try to see it from both sides and just think their way is the only way.

    It aint much of a conversation when one side just tries to pound their idea relentlessly into someone else without even trying to understand their side.

  8. #45588
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Weee E1s down. ^_^

  9. #45589
    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    See I agree with you, my only issue is that most of the criticism I see for FF14 is just stupid in my opinion, nobody ever talks about the multitude of issues the game has that are actually valid to critique.

    Some that come to mind:

    -The game's horrible UI and accessibility issues
    -The 1-50 experience being so terrible I rarely ever tell someone to play the game without dumping a ton of warnings on them
    -ARR
    -Classes being borderline unplayable until a certain level (Looking at Dragoon which doesnt get its first aoe until 45)
    -The transmog system



    Nobody ever said the game was perfect, its just hard to ever have a constructive conversation about it because most ppl just say shit like 'lul its anime', 'lul the story isnt that good its overrated.'
    Yea the games UI is terrible and I dealt with a bunch of people in my FC acting like I was some monster for saying it's annoying how I need to click 'yes' to every little inane thing. I also wish the game had proper modifier macros since that'd go a long way to cleaning up my bars. I mean sure I just set a hotbar button for alt+1 but it's far better if I can just use a macro for that.

    The 1-50 leveling is also just atrocious and I would really hope anyone that says it's ok is just trolling. Hell I've been playing since ARR and I actually first ended up quitting the game around level 40 since I was just getting so tired of the overly drawn out questing.

    I keep wanting to hope they eventually will work on making the glamour system like WoW and/or GW2. Hell I found it more like a joke that they only boosted the dresser by a whole 200 slots in ShB and even the dresser itself is terribly organized with zero way to sort things. Like I should be able to just hide/gray things out my current class can't wear so I don't need to hover over every icon. I love how detailed FF14's armors can get but the annoyance of the dresser and the fact that a lot of older content beyond ARR even unsynced is near impossible to solo makes it not as fun to try and collect appearances.

    Beyond those things the primary thing that makes it so I personally always get bored of FF14 is the end game systems. I just get bored of grinding tomestones and FATE's just aren't exactly a fun thing to grind and PvE wise that's about all I have to do in FF14 until patches that add new systems that may or may not be good (I finished Eureka but I can't say I enjoyed Eureka). I don't do housing since I don't like being forced to stay subbed for a house and gathering/crafting, while pretty well done, just isn't my thing so I tend to just level those things with Grand Company turn-ins/the eventual beast tribe. I'm someone that actually likes World Quests and I love being able to go out in the world and do my emissaries and other activities on my alts. Though that's where my issue with BFA comes in since Azerite just isn't as fun of a system as artifacts and essences require far too much grinding for me to bother on alts. That and Legions Mage Tower was a great motivator for me to power up my alts which allowed me to unlock a lot of the appearances.

  10. #45590
    Quote Originally Posted by leviathonlx View Post
    Yea the games UI is terrible and I dealt with a bunch of people in my FC acting like I was some monster for saying it's annoying how I need to click 'yes' to every little inane thing. I also wish the game had proper modifier macros since that'd go a long way to cleaning up my bars. I mean sure I just set a hotbar button for alt+1 but it's far better if I can just use a macro for that.

    The 1-50 leveling is also just atrocious and I would really hope anyone that says it's ok is just trolling. Hell I've been playing since ARR and I actually first ended up quitting the game around level 40 since I was just getting so tired of the overly drawn out questing.

    I keep wanting to hope they eventually will work on making the glamour system like WoW and/or GW2. Hell I found it more like a joke that they only boosted the dresser by a whole 200 slots in ShB and even the dresser itself is terribly organized with zero way to sort things. Like I should be able to just hide/gray things out my current class can't wear so I don't need to hover over every icon. I love how detailed FF14's armors can get but the annoyance of the dresser and the fact that a lot of older content beyond ARR even unsynced is near impossible to solo makes it not as fun to try and collect appearances.

    Beyond those things the primary thing that makes it so I personally always get bored of FF14 is the end game systems. I just get bored of grinding tomestones and FATE's just aren't exactly a fun thing to grind and PvE wise that's about all I have to do in FF14 until patches that add new systems that may or may not be good (I finished Eureka but I can't say I enjoyed Eureka). I don't do housing since I don't like being forced to stay subbed for a house and gathering/crafting, while pretty well done, just isn't my thing so I tend to just level those things with Grand Company turn-ins/the eventual beast tribe. I'm someone that actually likes World Quests and I love being able to go out in the world and do my emissaries and other activities on my alts. Though that's where my issue with BFA comes in since Azerite just isn't as fun of a system as artifacts and essences require far too much grinding for me to bother on alts. That and Legions Mage Tower was a great motivator for me to power up my alts which allowed me to unlock a lot of the appearances.
    See, I don't mind the constant Yes/No popups really, and you can turn off some of the more annoying ones, especially the selling shit ones. My issue with the UI is a lot of times it blocks you from doing something simple because you're in a menu. Can't join or leave a group because you're in a retainer menu >.>. But I hope they never do that with macros, their macros are far too powerful and the one thing that keeps the "best way to do everything" from being macro it is that macros don't queue, for modifiers to work properly they would have to allow macro queuing.

    I actually like 1-50 honestly, it's the post 2.0 quests that start to wear on you, all those quests and it doesn't feel like you're getting anywhere, they barely even give XP.

    Only thing I have to say about glamour is, WoW didn't fix theirs in an expansion so hopefully FF can fix theirs eventually, since I actually glamour in FF and not in wow.

    Rest is just opinion really, I play FF because I want to grind Tomestones and grind for gear.

  11. #45591
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    I rarely have issues with them too and the few moments were you cant hit them you have buttons like True North which even has two charges now. It comes down to a know how the fight is but I WILL admit that bad tanks can make your life hard. I would never ever do content with random people on my MNK but I freaking love it in organized content.
    The first dungeon I played when I came back after 2 year absence, I was surprised to see tanks running, grouping mobs up, then stopping and facing them away so I could do my job. One thing I get tired of in other games is tanks having less of a clue about the positional requirements of any job that can't simply AoE in a big circle around themselves while running. So maybe these positional requirements make tanks more aware of their group and better tanks?

  12. #45592
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    It's no secret that the UI has weaknesses, esp in the "can't do that right now" department.

    I mean they spam me with the "wanna join grp yes/no" thing while crafting but clicking yes basically brings up "jk, can't joing grp right now lol" dialogue.
    Also: I don't need to click "yes I want to use dungeon item to open dungeon door" every friggin time!

  13. #45593
    Quote Originally Posted by Bovinity Divinity View Post
    Seriously, this is what I mean. I didn't even make any specific complaint and you already felt the need to come running to the rescue.

    Uhm... that didn't happen..?
    You are reading an awful lot into (and felt personally attacked by) something that basically said:

    "for the last 1000 pages, people mention the same thing over and over and neither side is listening"

    Seems like that statement is exactly on point then.
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-08-05 at 08:53 AM.

  14. #45594
    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    I really should give BFA another try though. I really enjoyed it in the first few weeks on my BrM Monk and Protadin but fell out of love with it moment Uldir and M+ came out. I just really really hate the way gearing is these days among some other things. I remember farming my ass off in M+ and clearing Uldir the first two weeks getting a total of two items (both from the cache) that weren't even really upgrades. I ended up being were I couldn't even get into a group because of the item levels people wanted for Uldir after two weeks. So I just stopped playing because I felt dejected.
    It's tough for me because gearing is pretty irrelevant to me in most games (and definitely in WoW and FF14). I just put on whatever the game gives me and glamour/tmog over it. In FF14 gear is super boring, and in WoW it's generally loot city, so I just equip the best and move on. Both games do it differently, but the end result is the same. It's why I used the example of "hunting the necklace powers" because it is actually fun for me to acquire and power them up and then look for ways to combine their effects depending on the content I'm doing. That to me is fun and it's because it's loaded with player agency and depth and also gives goals to work towards.

    WoW still has issues, but the raid is fun (I didn't find Uldir fun at all btw), but was pleasantly surprised with BoD and EP. The mini raid was ok, but nothing special.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Why do you even play the game if you despise it so much you call encounter design "binary and shallow" when its 10000000000000000000000000x better then wow ever was.

    It's like you just hang around here to shit on it.
    Did you even read my quote? Here - I'll snippet for you:
    I love FF14
    I don't despise the game. I have valid criticisms of it and want it to be the best version of itself. I always welcome any and all to actually challenge my statements with good discussion and love anecdotes and personal insight.

    Re-read my post and then read your response. One of us is using critical thinking and logic and the other is frothing at the mouth spouting subjective statements as if they are facts.

    Quote Originally Posted by Baconeggcheese View Post
    Ad hominem then, instead of just acknowledging that you misunderstood what depth in game design is.

    They do what now? I haven't used the official forums because those tend to be awful but that's pretty funny.
    Bingo lol. I've been permabanned from the OF for a while now, the first offense was a joke reason and I couldn't believe it, the thing that got me perma'd I had a feeling would have consequences, but it was worth the risk to point out the blatant misinformation, lies, and hypocrisy of the poster.

    Quote Originally Posted by KrayZ33 View Post
    I actually like the positionals.... I really see no reason to dislike them, they are rewarding and you can and have to plan movement ahead of time (which of course is at some point a completely automatic process) and if you miss them sometimes, it's not the end of the world either.
    How can they be rewarding if missing them is not the end of the world and landing them offers no change in gameplay? I don't like them because as @Baconeggcheese stated it's tedious more often than not to work around them, and in some cases, even designed cases they're irrelevant. Why keep something around that you have to add a button (True North) to help mitigate the frustration of? Or when some of the encounters don't even use positionals, Leviathan for instance, and AOE doesn't use them either?

    It reminds me of TP; Something there that really wasn't needed and then designing stuff around it rather than just removing it and re-engineering the engagement elsewhere in the combat engine. Something I advocated for back in HW and granted it took them a bit longer to come around, but the end result was that they felt the same.

    Lastly, just as an FYI - I actually think weaving oGCD's the FF14's best addition to the combat engine.

    I don't see how the netcode is an issue there either, unless the tank moves the boss around a lot? Or something?
    You do can do minimalistic sidesteps to get the positionals done. I see absolutely no clunkyness in them, nor are they in any way whatsoever annoying.
    I'd rather have them than not and I really, really doubt that the majority (or even a big chunk of the playerbase) would say the opposite.
    The netcode is sloppy. This isn't something really contestable. It's pretty widely accepted. Some encounters require boss movement, but it's frustrating for everyone. If the netcode was tighter, boss movement mechanics could be used more creatively that allow deeper encounter design and less frustrations for tanks/melee players.

    Speaking personally - I don't think the idea of positionals is bad, I simply don't favor the implementation.

    Regarding the majority of the playerbase I can't speculate on that. I know that a large subset of players does find ire with them, and I know that a large subset doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Oh I understand depth just fine, I think the classes have plenty of depth, we just differ in opinion of what depth is. By your "definition" of depth no mmo ever has any depth because there's always only 1 proper way to play.
    Can't really differ on opinion when there's a real definition that exists. That's some "alternative facts" type of shit.

    Quote Originally Posted by Yoshingo View Post
    Its weird. I've noticed, as FF14 gets popular, people who seem weirdly hostile to all parts of it just loudly talking about how much they hate it.

    Same people who will defend WoW against the same criticisms they levy against FF14 despite it being far better in those regards.
    SUPER ironic coming from you. I could literally say the same thing in reverse and it'd be true based on our previous discussion:

    "Same people who will defend FF14 against the same criticisms they levy against WoW despite it being far better in those regards."

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    I personally wouldn't be against the removal of positionals. They were a thing back in ARR when classes were incredibly simplistic but I feel like they don't have a place in the current game.

    The only class I could see it maybe being a thing for still is Monk since I do think they help with the feel of that class.
    I'd probably agree that this would be the way I would take the game. Leave positionals as a MNK thing, but in the same vein we still have the issue where it's irrelevant in AOE, some boss fights, and has ability bloat tied to it (really true north...). I have to believe there's a better way to implement it, but I can't come up with anything exciting myself.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    I'd like to see more positionals and make them even more important to hit honestly, they did the right thing with DRG and the fact if you don't hit that positional you don't get raiden thrust. I want it to the point that your dps is ass if you don't hit positionals, you have 2 stacks of true north for times you can't physically do it.
    You realize this was ARR right? It was widely criticized at that time and incredibly frustrating to play around which is why they walked away from that design methodology.

    But humor me - you say you want to make them even more important - how would you implement that? Give insight and examples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Aruhen View Post
    Also positionals are not bad game design. Just because you don't like it doesn't mean it is. It sucks in FFXIV because like Wreck (I think it was him) said the net code sucks ass and its a pain in the ass because of it. If the net code was like in WoW then I'd be all for keeping them.
    Speaking personally - if positionals are irrelevant in AOE, some boss fights, they've reduced punishment for missing them expansion after expansion, and they've added ability bloat to combat the frustration of dealing with positionals in the combat engine, I have to ask...

    What's actually good about them? It's looks like they're moving away from it slowly (think TP) IMO.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    There's a huge difference between "when do I hit my 1 button out of 4" and "when and in what order do I hit my 1 button out of 20 plus that all mean something"
    This is incredibly juvenile analysis. Not only are you assigning more credit to filler combo abilities than they deserve from a depth perspective, but you're heavily discounting the nuance and synergy in some WoW toolkits.

    Here's an example I gave earlier:
    Secondly, while WoW may have much fewer buttons, the gameplay is deep (at least on my Ret Paladin, I know I know). I have a lot of optimizations to make:

    1) Don't cap Holy Power
    2) Spend procs so you don't waste them being overwritten by new procs
    3) Have to spend Holy Power ever 4s to maintain 15% damage buff
    4) Don't let CS sit on 2 charges
    5) Use abilities in an appropriate priority so you don't get stuck with nothing to do/deal less damage (not sure how many classes have this issue, but it's a Ret one since it's a priority based cooldown class with no filler attack)
    6) Priority changes during DPS cooldown with addition of an extra attack

    That's just the baseline stuff. This changes depending on which talents you select, which azerite traits, trinkets, and Necklace powers you use. For instance, due to my traits, during my DPS cooldown, I have to prioritize spending Holy Power over a more fluid rotation because I have an extra generator and button forcing more clashes. Not only that, but the increased crit chance I get from it, props up my other azerite trait that deals DoT on a specific ability crit, but that ability can proc back to back, but I have to delay it so if it crits it doesn't overwrite my Dot (all while trying to not overcap resources/let abilities sit idle). For reference I sit at about 45 CPM on my Ret (50 if I use Crusade).
    Each of these elements on their own are pretty shallow. Don't cap resources, spend procs, don't let abilities sit idle, etc. That's FF14 gameplay in a nutshell too.

    But where it does shine is how they overlap and layer over each other creating that agency that @Baconeggcheese and I were trying to explain to you previously. Each decision points interacts with the others, whereas in FF14 they do not. They're consistently binary (some exclusions, like BRD/BLM come to mind, and an example of why i always say that I feel FF14 does casters MUCH better than WoW does). You will NEVER hit Fast Blade after Riot Blade. You will never hit True Thrust after Disembowl. That's not a choice, that's forced gameplay.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    Just because you don't like something doesn't mean it should be changed to fit into a mold of what you want it to be. If you don't like positionals don't play classes with them, pure and simple. Don't, however, take things from those who enjoy them.

    Should all melee have positionals? Maybe not, Sam could probably do without the one it has, but monk is made to move around the boss
    Most reasonable post I've seen you make. Let me offer a compromise - I'm fine with all melee keeping positionals if they make tanks more interesting. I actually love that tanks are just DPS with extra responsibility and not positionals (it's literally the main reason I play one), but I don't like how braindead their gameplay is.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    It takes zero thought to play wow, I would have believed you more if you had said they were both brain dead. At least that's closer then saying wow takes more thought

    Even if both games are simple like you claim, FF is still a shit ton more fun, and since it's a game that's what counts honestly. The jobs are more fun, the encounters are more fun, hell, crafting, housing, and glamour are all more fun
    Fun is subjective so you can't really state that the way you are if your goal is to have a meaningful discussion.

    I play both games, because NEITHER game offers me completely what I want in one package. Speaking personally I love FF14's graphics, art style, job design, gear design, and EX Trials. I love WoW's fluidity, combat, world design, and difficult content.

    Quote Originally Posted by Onikaroshi View Post
    tanks are irked because they lost a combo, you're literally trying to fight against an entire playerbase.
    Source? Most things I've seen is that tanks are thrilled with the gameplay changes in general. I am not upset over losing my aggro combo, I never used the damn thing anyway.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sharby View Post
    Dunno feels like a lot of what you're saying is opinion based, I will concede on the depth aspect but I disagree with you saying things like Litany aren't interesting. I feel like you're only saying that about buffs because you disagree with them existing.

    Things like Litany and Voice are interesting to me because they add weight to classes that normally are only judged by their dps like in WoW. Debating whether or not to bring an AST or a BRD to a fight not just because of 'do they have the best numbers' but instead having to look at them holistically is interesting to me.
    Most of what I say is opinion based, but I usually provide examples to help you understand my point of view.

    I don't like buffs that don't change gameplay. If all a buff does is improve an invisible number then it's not well designed IMO. A cooldown should improve your gameplay, not just an invisible number (I say invisible 1) because no third party tools XD, and 2) because if you're like me you don't have damage numbers turned on).

    A good example of a cooldown from WoW is like Crusade for Ret Paladins. It's a stacking damage and haste buff that dramatically increases your resource generation and spending. It is like being in a speeding locomotive. That is a dramatic departure from the standard Ret gameplay. Back in HW when they added Blood of the Dragon, it was a fun cooldown IMO:

    1) It looked badass
    2) It added new abilities (Gierskogul)
    3) It lengthened your combo routes

    That's a dramatic departure from your normal gameplay. That's the hallmark of good cooldown design in my mind and by making it mindless in SB/ShB ruined a bit of that IMO.

    Another great example is Requiescat in ShB. Not only does it grant instant casts (something you could not do before), but it also allows use of a new ability. That's a fun cooldown. Compare that to Fight or Flight, a flat buff that does absolutely nothing to change your gameplay or allow you to do something you couldn't before.

    I think its very refreshing to have actual impactful utility because it gives more avenues of value to the game instead of just how fast your class kills the boss which is something WoW is seriously failing at.
    With all due respect - FF14 suffers from this issue way more than WoW does IMO. People bring lots of classes for their tools (Spirit Link, Blessing of Protection, Stampeding Roar, Concealment, etc. in WoW whereas in FF14, due to the way encounters are designed everything boils down to damage because there are few unique tools required to help bypass mechanics.

    Dunno what you mean by Dragon Sight being clunky and requiring addons to use, nothing more to say besides I disagree with that.
    @StrawberryZebra said it better than I ever could. I will add that in order to use it optimally you need a third party tool to tell you who is doing the most damage. You can assume, but you won't always be right. In SB I had PLENTY of DRG's give it to me as the PLD because the other DPS was braindead. It made me happy to know he could see the same thing I did.

    As for what is and isn't the highlight of the job I'm going to have to disagree again, I think that having animation locks is very unique to the job because it means you have to pay attention to mechanics and boss timers more than other jobs have to. It can be argued that its clunky but so far I think its cool to have flashy animations and I can't say it has impeded my performance more than my own user error.
    You're arguing that a reduction in gameplay responsiveness is a good thing...?

    Considering positionals going to have to also disagree there, I'm not sure where you are getting that they're rage-inducing to use. They gave us two charges of TN and I haven't had any issues with them either aside from again, user error. I think they are well designed insofar as that the game is designed around them, bosses don't have shit like being needed to tank with their backs or sides against the walls at all times. In the vast majority of content you can reliably and consistently land them.
    I said this above so I'll just echo it here:

    If positionals are irrelevant in AOE, some boss fights, SE has reduced punishment for missing them expansion after expansion, and they've added ability bloat to combat the frustration of dealing with positionals in the combat engine, I have to ask are they really that well designed?

    I am in favor of the current state of tank ability numbers because even though they're similar the fact that you have them opens up numerous possible strats. On my DRK I had a lot of fun finding all the different ways I could solo soak tethers on Titania EX until I found out that with some coordination from the healers I could solo soak all 6 because of all the tools I had at my disposal. That is cool to me, that is rewarding to me, that is interesting to me and I've saved numerous groups from wiping because I had that knowledge, I could never do something like that in WoW because the most optimal strat is always clearcut and found within moments. I personally feel like FF14 has a lot more room for discovering shit because you have so many different ways to use all the tools you have. WoW has too few abilities at the moment.
    Largely in agreement here.

    And for the record tanking isn't supposed to be difficult or mechanic intensive, the complexity has always been fight knowledge and CD usage. So as far as I'm concerned as long as I'm being pressured to use my CD's right I'd say its well designed.
    But why not? Why can't it be both? Also CD Usage is braindead and all jobs have to learn fight knowledge so that doesn't really count.

    See I agree with you, my only issue is that most of the criticism I see for FF14 is just stupid in my opinion, nobody ever talks about the multitude of issues the game has that are actually valid to critique.

    Some that come to mind:

    -The game's horrible UI and accessibility issues
    -The 1-50 experience being so terrible I rarely ever tell someone to play the game without dumping a ton of warnings on them
    -ARR
    -Classes being borderline unplayable until a certain level (Looking at Dragoon which doesnt get its first aoe until 45)
    -The transmog system

    Nobody ever said the game was perfect, its just hard to ever have a constructive conversation about it because most ppl just say shit like 'lul its anime', 'lul the story isnt that good its overrated.'
    Speaking personally I don't really argue things that are 100% agreed upon as needing work (and when I say 100% I mean people who can critically think, not fanbois or mouth-frothing clowns). The UI, 1-50 experience, tmog system, and skill accrual curve are all CLEAR and unmitigated offenders and need attention. I tend to focus on areas that are more subjective in nature. I've gone over these examples in pretty substantial depth before.

    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Weee E1s down. ^_^
    Grats my homie. E2S is tough, better hold that Glare down hard if you want to meet the DPS check.

    Quote Originally Posted by MirikhM View Post
    The first dungeon I played when I came back after 2 year absence, I was surprised to see tanks running, grouping mobs up, then stopping and facing them away so I could do my job. One thing I get tired of in other games is tanks having less of a clue about the positional requirements of any job that can't simply AoE in a big circle around themselves while running. So maybe these positional requirements make tanks more aware of their group and better tanks?
    AOE doesn't have positional requirements.
    Last edited by Wrecktangle; 2019-08-05 at 07:59 PM.

  15. #45595
    High Overlord Graeham II's Avatar
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    I'm mostly happy with the state of the game at the moment. There's a few things I'd like to see change for the sake of QoL, though the development team seem to work on at least one QoL feature per patch - sometimes more. My biggest desire at the moment is for the housing system to be vastly improved - I'm hoping that the influx of new players to the game will convince the developers to invest in more housing wards. It's practically impossible to find one on some servers these days - and sitting at a placard mindlessly clicking to see if the timer is up doesn't appeal to me at all.

  16. #45596
    The Unstoppable Force Granyala's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post
    The netcode is sloppy. This isn't something really contestable. It's pretty widely accepted. Some encounters require boss movement, but it's frustrating for everyone except ranged/healers.
    Oh you couldn't be more wrong on that one.

    I friggin hate the UI delay, trying to heal targets that are already dead server side etc.
    I also HATE that when you move, stop and immediately cast, the cast gets aborted 90% of the time because the server thinks you were still moving.

    Trust me, even as a caster there is plenty of frustration to be had here.

  17. #45597
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Oh you couldn't be more wrong on that one.

    I friggin hate the UI delay, trying to heal targets that are already dead server side etc.
    I also HATE that when you move, stop and immediately cast, the cast gets aborted 90% of the time because the server thinks you were still moving.

    Trust me, even as a caster there is plenty of frustration to be had here.
    There's also the parts where you think you're out an AoE but the games slow server tick meant you still got hit. WoW's netcode/server tick is a massive benefit for the game.

  18. #45598
    Quote Originally Posted by Granyala View Post
    Oh you couldn't be more wrong on that one.

    I friggin hate the UI delay, trying to heal targets that are already dead server side etc.
    I also HATE that when you move, stop and immediately cast, the cast gets aborted 90% of the time because the server thinks you were still moving.

    Trust me, even as a caster there is plenty of frustration to be had here.
    Ok - this is fair, will edit. My apologies.

  19. #45599
    I'm 64.5 on Gunbreaker now.

    That's all I have to contribute.

  20. #45600
    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecktangle View Post

    How can they be rewarding if missing them is not the end of the world and landing them offers no change in gameplay? I don't like them because as @Baconeggcheese stated it's tedious more often than not to work around them, and in some cases, even designed cases they're irrelevant. Why keep something around that you have to add a button (True North) to help mitigate the frustration of? Or when some of the encounters don't even use positionals, Leviathan for instance, and AOE doesn't use them either?
    How is that exclusive?

    They are rewarding because they give you something else to min max and the edge over someone else when you do it and they don't- you also min max the use of true noth, just like you min max the GCDs on the boss, you min max the positionals you can do during mechanics etc.
    They will however not remove you out of the game when you miss them like they did when you had to do the positionals to recieve the next stance/combo etc. like they did in ARR.

    Since when is doing more DPS and playing better "tedious", especially for you, and not the fun part about it?

    How are they *not* adding anything to the game when they clearly do - even more so when everyone plays with them in mind and does things differently than if they were not around (so your statement about them "not changing the gameplay" isn't even true)
    Last edited by KrayZ33; 2019-08-05 at 09:27 PM.

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