How exactly is Necromancer too similar to Warlock DK?

[AwkwardSquirtle]

Gazlowe has been in lore since WC3.

As have necromancers. I'm on the "necromancer is in the game" side of this argument, but Necromancer is one of the WC3 units too.

[Villager720]

Comparing Arthas to average necromancer is like comparing Tirion to average priest.

Fair. But how about all the other DKs?
When was there a necromancer with the strength to rival a DK? Even KT went ahead and began a Lich rather than rolling necromancer again.

[Teriz]

As have necromancers. I'm on the "necromancer is in the game" side of this argument, but Necromancer is one of the WC3 units too.

Of course, but if you look at the Necromancer WC3 unit, all of its abilities are in the DK and Warlock classes.

[redfinale]

Yes, Necromancer is possible, there is plenty of room to fill their kit with unique mechanics and cool spells.

You can't argue however, that THEMATICALLY their fantasy is already covered. Dark cloth caster? Warlock/Spriest. Death magic and summoning undead? DK. Edgy evil-but-not-really-evil character? Warlocks,Spriests, Demon Hunters, Death Knights...

Blizzard could try and make them unique, but at the same time, why would they do it, when there is Tinker, who has strong lore background and is unlike any other class we have atm. You could argue engi prof and maybe hunters, but that's nothing compared to how Necromancer theme is already covered by 4 claases.

I wouldn't say definitive NO to necromancer, especiLly if next expansion is about Shadowlands, Helya, Sylvanas, Death Knights etc., but atm Tinker just appears as a more intersting and unique addition.

It's all in the aesthetics of the classes/specs. True that one could look at a priest as a holy paladin in cloth (or a holy paladin as a priest in plate), but the two have different aesthetics. The priest is your traditional, stereotypical healer. They are the squishy white mage-ish healer that serves their deity through faith and prayer. Bringing peace to others through non-aggressive means, like a warm, comforting light. A paladin as a whole is like the priest in their faith, but more militaristic, the soldier of the light. They serve by fighting those that wish to bring harm to the innocent. They essentially "weaponize" their faith, even their healing feels more aggressive so to speak than a priest's does.

A necromancer is usually seen as a dark, robe wearing caster using dark necrotic magic to cause harm (not unlike much of the current warlock spells) and are usually seen in the company of undead servants (as a playable class, exactly what unholy death knights have right now). The current live warlock has affliction, spells that cause pain and suffering over a time to torture the victim; destruction, causing the same pain but instantaneously, the more "agent of chaos" type; and demonology, the master of demons, summoning swarms of and a variety of demons to do their bidding. While demonology did have the ability to transform in to a demon, a power they stripped from them and gave to havoc demon hunters, I personally feel that making them a "summon a swarm of demons" type versus a "transform into a demon" type was more fitting to what one might thing a demonology warlock is, similar to a beast mastery hunter having the more rare and exotic tames vs the more simplistic survival hunter or the less pet dependent marksman. The problem, however, is that in the very descriptions I gave, the necromancer is close to a warlock in almost every way. The only difference is that instead of fel and fire, a necromancer uses shadow and poison, and instead of demons, they have undead. The shadow magic would lead to what warlocks currently have with destruction, the poison element is affliction to a T, and a the mass summon of undead is to similar to not only the demonology spec's use of demons, but the fact that unholy death knights have both a singular undead pet for normal combat, and their Army of the Dead ability as a cooldown. With the way warlocks are currently, it's all but impossible to put in a necromancer without it being a carbon copy of a warlock.

A Tinker/Tinkerer class would make infinitely more sense. While the engineering profession already exists, a tinker class would be more in line with what a Diablo 3 demon hunter does. An assortment of tricks and gimmicky devices to deal damage on the battlefield. Weapon wise, sharing guns, bows, and crossbows with hunters wouldn't be out of the question. As for how they do things, less traps like a hunter and more mechanical devices. They could deploy a turret or two that while following pet AI as far as how it attacks, would remain stationary, allowing them to keep a set area more on lock. In a boss fight in a raid, there are sometimes adds that spawn from particular locations, unlike other pet classes that have to wait for their pets to move to the new target, a tinker's turret could just rotate and fire, not unlike a ranged dps. In pvp, this turret could keep an eye on flag rooms, even if they get smoked fairly quickly, the tinker now has more situational awareness as to what is going on at base. For a mobile pet, if they were to make the class a pet class, or at least one of the specs a pet spec, they could have a modular robot. You can use a class specific menu, like the death knight's runeforging and apply different mods, like a flamethrower for a dot or azerite munitions to apply a damage debuff. For cc, they could have a cryo bomb/mine that freezes like a hunter trap, or a bola that hard immobilizes like druid roots.

The point of this is that by aesthetics, necromancers are too similar to existing warlocks and somewhat so like unholy death knights too. Whereas the tinkers, other than a slight draw from survival hunters with tools, would be an entirely new thing. Any similarities to other class abilities would be so spread out as to the source (tesla coil lighting like a shaman's lightning bolt, flamethrowers from fire mage's dragon's breath, gimmicky tools like a hunter, a grapple hook that could either pull a target toward like death grip or pull you towards more like a warrior charge) that they're more able to exist without being a copy of something else.

[CrawlFromThePit]

Oh wow, so you have bad opinions all around. Got it.

Okay, in that case:
1.) Class design is bad now
2.) Even when classes were "whole," class overlapped still existing which negates the ridiculous point you tried to make in your previous point

Lol, "opinions".

[matrix123mko]

Fair. But how about all the other DKs?
When was there a necromancer with the strength to rival a DK? Even KT went ahead and began a Lich rather than rolling necromancer again.

Gothik had command over death knights, he could raise multiple death knights after their deaths. Noth talked to death knights like his equals. It is suggested that necromancers are overall equal to death knights in terms of power.

[Wildberry]

paladin is close to priest, we dont need a third holy class.
death knight is close to warlock, we dont need a third death/shadow type class.

get it?

Death Knight isn't close to Warlock, though. Stop trying to force a parallel where there's not one.

With the DK, you can start with the Necromancer's abilities from WC3:
Raise Dead
Unholy Frenzy
All Will Serve (Skeletal Archer)
Magus of the Dead (Skeletal Mage)
Glyph of the Skeleton (Skeletal Warrior)

The Warcraft III iteration of Raise dead is fundamentally incomparable to DK Raise Dead considering one summoned two temporary skeletons (that were Death Pact/Dark ritual fodder most of the time), and the other summons a permanent ghoul. Name change one, and you're done.

Similarly, WCIII Unholy Frenzy and the modern WoW Unholy Frenzy are completely different, again. It's almost like the mechanics could stay for both, and one of the names could be altered again.

Arguably "All Will Serve" goes. That's fine by me. Magus of the Dead is an Azerite passive, not an ability, so please stop padding your list I know you're prone to doing that. I also see you're scraping the barrel by trotting out cosmetic glyph options. Would you like to trot out the super impactful corpse explosion, too?

Abomination

It might make sense, but it's not necessary. I'm glad we're starting out strong on... PvP talents though.

Reanimation

Another PvP talent, and one that barely sees use. Unlike Abom, this one actually would have to go. Fortunately, it'd see much more use elsewhere.

Dark Transformation
Bone Shield
Bone Storm
Lifedrinker
Frostwyrms Fury
Bloodworms
Defile
Necrotic Aura

None of these are necessary and a Necromancer Class could easily exist without them

Life and Death

Arguably it would be scrapped if the Necromancer "DoT spec" were magic based. I tend to prefer concepts which focus on the alchemy angle, though.

Soul Reaper

Are you really trying to tell me that a melee range ability which involves ripping out an enemy's soul with a runeblade belongs on a Necromancer and not a DK?

All DK diseases

Considering the amount of bleeds in this game? No. You're just trying to make an arbitrary distinction here to pad the list.

Deathbolt

Could easily be given the Mortal Coil treatment.

Life Drain
Soul Drain
Haunt
Soul Harvest
Soul Leech
Corruption
Agony
Unstable Affliction
Siphon Life

Pretty much none of these are necessary

Soulstone

We'd need to steal Soulstones? Why? Necromancers should have phylacteries.

Soulwell

Definitely not.

Phantom Singularity

Arguable, but probably not.

etc.

Love this bit being tacked on when you've padded this list almost as far as it can be padded.

Not to mention that a Necromancer summoning spec would be very similar to Demonology.

Ah, right, we can only have one summoner class in the game. There's no room for overlap here, unlike permanent pet classes, or dual-wielding agile melee, etc.

In short, you would have to dismantle both the Warlock and DK classes to make a rich and interesting Necromancer class.

Not really, and I know that you know this isn't the case, considering your old Necromancer thread where you explicitly stated the class could exist without trampling much on either Warlocks or DKs (it's sad you deleted the text in that thread, it was a good concept! One of the better ones I've seen.)

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Lol, "opinions".

Yeah, and that's being charitable. Would you prefer I point out that you're just not operating in reality?

Again, you tried to claim that class overlap is bad because classes don't feel whole anymore. You could easily use your entire class' kit back during some of the most egregious examples of class overlap, but hey, I'm sure you'll find a way to deflect from that for yet another post.

[NihilSustinet]

Death Knight isn't close to Warlock, though. Stop trying to force a parallel where there's not one.




The Warcraft III iteration of Raise dead is fundamentally incomparable to DK Raise Dead considering one summoned two temporary skeletons (that were Death Pact/Dark ritual fodder most of the time), and the other summons a permanent ghoul. Name change one, and you're done.

Similarly, WCIII Unholy Frenzy and the modern WoW Unholy Frenzy are completely different, again. It's almost like the mechanics could stay for both, and one of the names could be altered again.

Arguably "All Will Serve" goes. That's fine by me. Magus of the Dead is an Azerite passive, not an ability, so please stop padding your list I know you're prone to doing that. I also see you're scraping the barrel by trotting out cosmetic glyph options. Would you like to trot out the super impactful corpse explosion, too?


It might make sense, but it's not necessary. I'm glad we're starting out strong on... PvP talents though.


Another PvP talent, and one that barely sees use. Unlike Abom, this one actually would have to go. Fortunately, it'd see much more use elsewhere.


None of these are necessary and a Necromancer Class could easily exist without them


Arguably it would be scrapped if the Necromancer "DoT spec" were magic based. I tend to prefer concepts which focus on the alchemy angle, though.


Are you really trying to tell me that a melee range ability which involves ripping out an enemy's soul with a runeblade belongs on a Necromancer and not a DK?


Considering the amount of bleeds in this game? No. You're just trying to make an arbitrary distinction here to pad the list.


Could easily be given the Mortal Coil treatment.


Pretty much none of these are necessary


We'd need to steal Soulstones? Why? Necromancers should have phylacteries.


Definitely not.


Arguable, but probably not.


Love this bit being tacked on when you've padded this list almost as far as it can be padded.


Ah, right, we can only have one summoner class in the game. There's no room for overlap here, unlike permanent pet classes, or dual-wielding agile melee, etc.


Not really, and I know that you know this isn't the case, considering your old Necromancer thread where you explicitly stated the class could exist without trampling much on either Warlocks or DKs (it's sad you deleted the text in that thread, it was a good concept! One of the better ones I've seen.)

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Yeah, and that's being charitable. Would you prefer I point out that you're just not operating in reality?

Again, you tried to claim that class overlap is bad because classes don't feel whole anymore. You could easily use your entire class' kit back during some of the most egregious examples of class overlap, but hey, I'm sure you'll find a way to deflect from that for yet another post.

if you cant see how dk is to warlock as priest is to paladin, i really cant help you.

[Wildberry]

if you cant see how dk is to warlock as priest is to paladin, i really cant help you.

Warlock is closest to DH, not DK. What part about "Fel=/=Death" do you not get?

[NihilSustinet]

Warlock is closest to DH, not DK. What part about "Fel=/=Death" do you not get?

even if thats true, its even more counter to the argument that necromancers have a place in wow.

[Wildberry]

even if thats true, its even more counter to the argument that necromancers have a place in wow.

What? How exactly do you come to that conclusion. Please walk me through your train of thought, I want to see how a person can come to this conclusion and still be capable of using a computer.

[TigTone]

List of necromancer in WoW so far.

Feel free to add any I missed.

Scourge Necromancy, Cultist (ones from island expeditions) Necromancy, legion necromancy, Orc WoD necromancy, Mogu necromancy, Blood troll necromancy, Vrykul stormheim necromancy, Helya vrykul necromancy, Drust / witch necromancy, Bowsanmdi powered troll necromancy, and independent necromancers like the guy in duskwood.

[Maljinwo]

Warlock is closest to DH, not DK. What part about "Fel=/=Death" do you not get?

I think he may be referring to the class mechanic. While the theme is different, there are similarities between the two
Like Soulstones in place of Phylacteries, curses, life drain, etc.


I'm not against Necromancers, but I do think they overlap with Death Knights way more than Warlocks.
That said, I would like to see Blizzard making them more akin to Diablo's Necromancer class to try and make them unique enough

[RangerDaz]

These people who say necromancer too similar to Unholy DK clearly torlling.

Nope. I'm not trolling when i say that.

The truth is... Necromancer becomes a redundant class as death knights and warlocks already exist ingame.

Arthas is the most famous guy that raised the dead in warcraft history. And because of this Blizzard really invested on death knights having the "necromancer" role of raising undead and using plagues and necromantic abilities. Also warlocks have the evil robe guy with a staff role. For me, the two clearly steal the spotlight that the necromancers require to be unique and diversify the current classes.

That is how i see necromancers in wow.

The best necromancer concept in warcraft lore is Kelthuzad and his acrolytes. But still it is a mixture of Warlock and Deathknight (and shadow priest?), nothing original or new to WoW.

Tinker and/or Dark Ranger have different flavours than the current classes, and also fit in the current WoW theme

[BB8]

I support Necromancer.
Want to play a new cloth caster

[cocomen2]

But warriors use different abilities than DKs...
Martial prowess + strength/agility vs necromatic energy and runeweapons.

Oh, i forgot that narrow mind cant hold concept of 2+ classes using "necromatic energy" ITS SOOOOOO Unique , while other classes okay with 2 holy classes, 2 Fel classes BUT NECROMATICCCCCCCCCC there can be only one .


These kids nowdays.

Since when warrior has more Agility than Dk? (or you using gameplay cooldowns as perk in class theme?)
Then by this logic ordinary Joes able outrun Arthas ... and kite his sorry ass.(He is no agile enough for you?) dont forget he fought vs ILLIDAN agility based class -Sarcasm if you gona be too dense to see one.
And still by lore Death Knight has more strength too , so this leaves us with Warrior theme is ordinary people that took weapons in hands and if they born under LUCKY star and only then they would become like (Varian,Garosh,Magni).

[Abysal]

Of course, but if you look at the Necromancer WC3 unit, all of its abilities are in the DK and Warlock classes.

You used to make the same arguments about why Demon Hunters won't be added to the game. Blizzard doesn't care. They will adjust the other classes to fit in their new class whatever it may be. Their #1 focus is on getting people to buy the game. If they think Necromancer does that far better than the other options it will be added next. If not, then it won't be.

Having said that, Demon Hunter was in much heavier demand than anything else back then. I haven't seen evidence that Necromancer is nearly as popular.

[shade3891]

Just remove the pet part from unholy dk. It is anoying anyway, I might even play UH then. But I think many don't agree with me on this.. making a Necromancer hard to pull off. The summoning skeletons etc is kinda essential to them.

I don't see that many similarities between warlock and necro besides they are both a summoner class.

[Murthag]

I say that it's dk unholy spec to similar to a necromancer.

I strongly believe that can be place to a necromancer class, or just another cloth caster in game.

I liked the concept of runemaster in wow D&D, using runes to empower yourself or your basic spells

[lolpve]

The babies constantly crying for new classes are just fotm casuals who want new alt classes to play. Class balance has always been so horrible that anyone at the sharp end of pvp or raiding was always against it.