Nightborne Lore

[Amaterasu65]

BFA prepatch onwards destroyed the NB visually and storywise. They are one of the most pretentious and treacherous races around right now. Just an elf thing.

[Mehrunes]

Question, is there at any point a NB who actually says they specifically want to murder NEs?

All of them, obviously

fact is nightborne were the worst race to add to the horde and pre-bfa was the worst time to do it considering the arc that immediately followed. they also picked the worst possible rationalization for it when they showed thalyssra playing back tyrande's question to her like shes been sitting there for months stewing over that one time tyrande who brought half the army that saved her people dared ask her for assurance she wasnt gonna fuck the world over. if thats the scene blizzard chooses to use in the nightborne recruitment quest of course people are gonna think the nightborne have some weird ne hate complex

Aside from an obligatory "nah man you are wrong on all counts" to establish argumentative superiority right off the bat, going from Thalyssra being put off by Night Elven prejudice from the very top of their nation (for which Blizzard already had a perfect example and making further ones would only be redundant, especially given that it was just an introductory quest) to "lel Night Elf hate complex" is an absurd stretch.

No it doesn't make sense to become a race traitor out of nowhere just because one faction is better at licking your boots. That's completely dumb.
It also contradicts the whole "not conqueror" thing.

How can Thalyssra be a race traitor to Night Elves when she's no longer a Night Elf?

[Friendlyimmolation]

No it doesn't make sense to become a race traitor out of nowhere just because one faction is better at licking your boots. That's completely dumb.
It also contradicts the whole "not conqueror" thing.

Pretty sure Nightborne consider night elves cousins, not their same race. Also you don’t automatically side with people just because they look like you if their society is nothing like yours. Blood elves offered a familiar bond and culture, Tyrande offered jack shit.

[Mehrunes]

Pretty sure Nightborne consider night elves cousins, not their same race. Also you don’t automatically side with people just because they look like you if their society is nothing like yours. Blood elves offered a familiar bond and culture, Tyrande offered jack shit.

And even if they were still the same race, which they explicitly are not as described by a plethora of sources, there's still the part of them being separated from the Night Elves for 10000 years. And that amount of time would create rifts no matter what. Add to that the cultural shift the Nightborne had to go through because of living in a cramped space for that amount of time and them having to be reliant on the Nightwell for so long. Or, I dunno, the part where from Nightborne's perspective they were the ones that have been abandoned. Because the very reason why they put up a shield in the first place is because after they sealed the second Legion portal and assured Azerothian victory, the only help they got against the punitive Legion army was from Ashamane.

[Zuben]

After the civil war the nightborne needed support to recuperate from all the stress and damage. They also wished to check out the world after 10 000 years of isolation, which is easier to do with an infrastructure provided by a world-wide faction. Since they couldn't join both Horde and Alliance Thalyssra opted for the one that invited them over the one that ignored them. Had the Alliance been more inviting it would've been a tougher call, though I think blood elves understand the problems nightborne are facing better than kaldorei.

[Varodoc]

BFA prepatch onwards destroyed the NB visually and storywise. They are one of the most pretentious and treacherous races around right now. Just an elf thing.

Quite literally!

[ravenmoon]

Before Battle for Azeroth? Absolutely. The only interaction between Tyrande and Thalyssra was the former politely pointing out to the latter that they have no way of knowing she won't become as bad as Azshara and Elisande. Of course, all of this was before Blizzard suddenly started painting Tyrande like a dumb version of Satan and Thalyssra like a poor mistreated puppy.

I do wonder why Thalyssra even rebelled against Elisande. I mean, Elisande looks like a kitten next to Sylvanas, so it's not like Thalyssra doesn't want to serve genocidal tyrants.

You had me roflmao..but there is a sense of that, Elisande really is a kitten compared to Sylvanas,

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Night Elves helped them a lot? Ermh. I guess, if you played a Night elf, yea. But that's a reach.

How is it a reach, the night elves are helping their nightborne kin throughout and 7.0, and when the Darnassians come along in 7.1, they help as much as the blood elves. Tyrande is more annoyed at her kin from the kun for addiction and letting the Legion in, so at first appears a less willing participants, but let's not forget she helps them just as much, and Iis proud of them for standing up to fight for her city this time round when they failed to 10,000 years ago, choosing to hide themselves and the last remaining city from everyone and all the survivors.

Let's also not forget all the other night elves that help throughout the campaign in 7.0 and 7.1, and you will get why he says the night elves help a lot more. Its night elves that help with the arcan'dor, night elves in Shal'aran with the nightfallen resistance.

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Be careful. Ravenmoon may come here soon with his 20 paragraphs of reasons why night elves and nightborne are the same.

Not the same, but more similar, biologically, and historically, also the nightborne are kaldorei arcane culture, they are a night elf sub race, an off shoot far closer to the original than the high elves are.

I dint need a paragraph. Matrix ×D

[eurojust]

Pretty sure Nightborne consider night elves cousins, not their same race. Also you don’t automatically side with people just because they look like you if their society is nothing like yours. Blood elves offered a familiar bond and culture, Tyrande offered jack shit.

Elves are the same species.
You usually side with people you are close to. Nightbornes are Nelves citizens of Suramar. There's way more chance for them to have family ties with the Nelves than with any other group (Tyrande was borned there, Jarod was part of the Suramar guard, etc). Same way Shandris looks immedialty for her family in Nazjatar. Yet for some (artificial/gameplay balance) reason, Nightbornes and Night Elves don't communicate/exchange with eacher other except that moment where Tyrande was "mean" with 0 lore explanation.
Again, they should have remained neutral. 0 tactical avantage of joining Horde. If logic was part of WoW lore, they should now fear the wrath of the Alliance and be angry at Thalyssra making such a stupid decision.
What's next? Kul Tirians joining the Horde because Anduin was mean to Jaina?

[Powerogue]

Ultimately while they're on good terms with the local night elves, who were instrumental in growing the Arcan'dor and who they gave shelter in their basement, the Darnassian night elves showed up, fought the Legion, and booked it, leaving the nightborne to clean up the mess. It was the blood elves who stayed and called upon horde support to help them rebuild afterwards, since they had been through a similar experience.

Essentially,
darnassian night elves: So these highborne who deserted during the last world-ending cataclysm they caused and hid in a bubble are now selling out to the Legion again? Typical magic addicts. We'll help beat the Legion, that's it.

blood elves: So you guys had your leader sell you and your celestial body themed well of magical energy out to the Legion too? Man, small world. Of course we'll help you!

[ravenmoon]

tbh the idea that tyrande was mean to the nightborne is a way overblown meme repeated by people with no critical thinking abilities

she asks thalyssra how she knows she wont be the next elisande or azshara which is offensive but reasonable and ended up being a very smart call as thalyssra literally did become the next elisande by pledging her race to a genocidal tyrant's war on life and hope.

the other thing people always point to is when tyrande says the more nightborne fighting the fewer night elves will die in the fighting. there are 2 things to keep in mind with this one. 1 is that she doesnt say this to the nightborne themselves so you cant use it as a reason the nightborne would be upset.

2 is that as you may remember the nightfallen rebellion had you summoning their own people into suramar as withered husks in suicide attacks against nightborne nobles. so if you are gonna whine to me about how the nightborne cared about their own people and didnt want to be treated as cannon fodder im afraid you will be correctly laughed at and ignored.

but beside all of that, nightborne simply fit better in the alliance with the night elves or without them, because they are a civilized people and have their heartland intact. their thematics are 100% alliance based. they look ridiculous alongside the horde races. they are a bad fit for the horde because they cannibalize the magical elf niche the blood elves previously filled. note they are also a bad fit for the alliance because they would diminish the night elf thematics so really ideally they should never have been playable or been pandaren style neutrals with most of their civilization staying out of faction wars.

the biggest mistake they made with the nightborne though was having them willingly let the nightwell die. because doing that aligns them with the night elf and alliance outlook . they should have wanted to keep the nightwell. that would have driven a far more convincing wedge between the night elves and nightborne than "oh remember that 1 time tyrande said a thing i didnt like?". it would have shown us they are more like the blood elves after all. but thalyssra letting the nightwell die is what tyrande wanted her to do and makes the grudge against tyrande that follows really weird

but they have basically fucked up completely with the nightborne and ruined their race and lore and they look terrible too. easily the worst allied race and worst race added to the game.

And, the nightwell draining I've long counted as further evidence that the nightborne were intended to be part of the continuing night elf story, but were changed after most of the story was written and programmed in to go horde. I believe the nightborne were going to play a role in night elf lore after Teldrassil for the nightnelves, I suspect they were also going to be healed into night elves bit people loved their forms so much blizzard canned it, I also feel blood elf hordies wanted Suramar and high arcane dark elf race so bad, they try to diminish the obvious night elf connection, rather than embrace it, blizzard did end up giving it to them even in contradiction to most of the story.

[Combatbutler]

#27, and this is more evidence that the nightborne were intended to be part of the co tinuing night elf story, but were changed after most of the story was written and programmed in to go horde. I believe the nightborne were going to play a role in night elf lore after Teldrassil for the nightnelves, I suspect they were also going to be healed into night elves bit people loved their forms so much blizzard canned it, I also feel blood elf hordies wanted Suramar and high arcane dark elf race so bad, they try to diminish the obvious night elf connection, rather than embrace it, blizzard did end up giving it to them even in contradiction to most of the story.

The nightborne always had stronger connections to the blood elves thematically, their culture is very similar, their struggles and experiences. People just make the stronger connection due to the night elves of the past, but ignore the empire way of life was literally rejected and a new one based on some of their most ancient traditions was built in its place, scorning anything empire related, so basically 90% of nightborne culture is disgusting to night elves.

You constantly go on about something the night elves deliberately rejected, the ones who wanted to keep such a lifestyle were all exiled almost 8.000 years ago and made their own Kingdom in the east as a result, with the scorned elements at the very core of their new society.

Just because some outcasts returned to the fringe of night elf society, doesn't magically change their outlook on these elements nor does it make easier relations, the shen'dralar were received frosty and are treated frosty in almost every single interaction we have seen throughout the entirety of the lore material. So why should nightborne be treated any better and why would nightborne in turn accept such a treatment.


In terms of factions the most logical conclusion would have been a neutral suramar and no playable nightborne whatsoever.

[Mehrunes]

#27, and this is more evidence that the nightborne were intended to be part of the co tinuing night elf story, but were changed after most of the story was written and programmed in to go horde. I believe the nightborne were going to play a role in night elf lore after Teldrassil for the nightnelves, I suspect they were also going to be healed into night elves bit people loved their forms so much blizzard canned it, I also feel blood elf hordies wanted Suramar and high arcane dark elf race so bad, they try to diminish the obvious night elf connection, rather than embrace it, blizzard did end up giving it to them even in contradiction to most of the story.

A random (and illogical at some points) post on an unofficial forum is evidence of Blizzard's initial intentions in regards to the Nightborne? Wat?

[ravenmoon]

Must we have even more threads on this?

Evidently we must, shows you people feel strongly about this, and blizzard have created another blood elf situation, easily avoided if theyd just made them neutral with a few joining either side, or share them fully between both factions, or have them continue as part of the night elf story they are thread of.

The Nightborne and Night Elves are opposites.

They are not opposites at all. The most you can say is ling vigil Darnassian night elven culture 8s very different from pre sundering kaldorei culture - that is a far cry from nightborne and jight elves are opposites. You ignore the fact that nightborne are kaldorei culture to, and ignore all the other night elven factions and groups that are not druidic or priestly based cultures, when you boil it down, the nightborne are simply the highborne, moonguard, arcane version of the night elves, this is not a complete opposite at all.

The Night Elves have rejected all the Highborne represented, 10.000 years ago, and have set up a culture based on Nature and Faith.

1 night elf group, did, and they started accepting both their highborne culture kin and the arcane magic they banned - so it is clear they are not like that anymore , stop trying to paint them as some arcane , pre sundering hating, arcane culture hating group they are not. They accepted both highborne and arcane magic back..and that was the only night elven group that had previously not done so.

The Nightborne are Highborne in their most concentrated form. 100% arcane cityfolks that haven't seen a forest for 10.000 years.

So? That doesnt mean druidic and priest night elves who themselves use to live in cities reject city folk and city culture, cos we see them accepting city night elf folk in the highborne shen'dralar, as well as moving into a city themselves when they built tiny Darnassus and quite fine with humans, draenei, dwarves who live in cities and have city culture.

If Blizzard hadn't given them a Night Elf skeleton but a Blood Elf one, no one would even be considering merging them back into Night Elf culture.

Really? And you think that would have made sense telling a story about a group of night elves who continued using arcane, in a night elf city that was home to Tyrande, the Stormrages, Shadowsong and a good number of the night elves in the War of the Ancients war. In a night elf related theme, on night elf pre sundering culture...and you think it would make sense to have them have blood elf skeletons? Wtf?

If blizzard wanted this to be a bloodmelf story, they would have had the location elsewhere, it would be a story based on high elf people, involving them, based on their lore. But blizzard hasn't focused on nightnelves since the introduction in classic, so you somehow feel the first expansion to focus on jight elf lore should have or would have been better to have been blood elves because you feel if the skeletons were blood elf, itnwould make the story bloodmelf.?

Maybe blizzard wanted to give warcraft the first night elf sub race, seeing we had seem blood elf sub races I'm the San'layn, fel elves wretched and darkfallen, but had yet to see one based on night elves.

Tyrande may have been a dick, but she in no way misrepresented how the majority of her people would feel about these Nightborne.

According to who? And what aspect of them? Fortunately i agree with you, nightbelves, including the current highborne ones recently free from addiction, even the Moonguard are not fans of addiction, recklessness of the sort the nightborne had, they are disgusted, but they actually try to help their kin in these situations, as you saw Valewalker Farodin try to do, as well as the Moonguard and the refugees.

Meanwhile the Blood Elves found a kindred spirit in them, and worked hard to build on that friendship.

This again I agree with is correct, but the earlier assertions you made about the night elves are simply wrong. I think, blizzards story here is that the blood elves and nightborne are kindred spirits and the blood elves badly wanted their friendship and got it. It is not that the nightborne and nightbelves are not kindred, or that the nightborne have nothing in the nightnelves or alliance, they do, quite alot, but the Darnassian night elf group didnt approach the nightborne for an alliance like the blood elves did, and the blood elf alliance, doesnt mean the nightborne are enemies with the other broken isle night elf factions like the Val'sharah druids and priests, or the Moonguard or the Azsuna highborne ...groups that worked together with them.

They are just not allied with the Darnassians and the alliance.

The only thing you could say is that perhaps they have more in common with Humans and Gnomes than Orcs and Trolls. But that's not how the Alliance and Horde were represented to them. They met the Alliance through the Night Elves, getting to see them as united but judgemental. And the Horde through the Blood Elves, pretty much a sister race with near identical history and views, representing a side built on cultural integrity and unity among the downtrodden.

But you must remember in all this, the alliance night elves arent the only night elves a

Between conforming to those alien to them, or befriending those just like them, I predicted their choice from the very beginning, when them becoming playable was mere speculation on these forums. From the start, this was the only choice that made sense.

Well, I was convinced with the night elf was the choice that made the best sense, I never felt it was the only choice though.

I felt and saw the need the night elves had was greater, but ideally, both could benefit a lot. J guess we just feel differently on this.

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The nightborne always had stronger connections to the blood elves thematically, their culture is very similar, their struggles and experiences. People just make the stronger connection due to the night elves of the past, but ignore the empire way of life was literally rejected and a new one based on some of their most ancient traditions was built in its place, scorning anything empire related, so basically 90% of nightborne culture is disgusting to night elves.

You constantly go on about something the night elves deliberately rejected, the ones who wanted to keep such a lifestyle were all exiled almost 8.000 years ago and made their own Kingdom in the east as a result, with the scorned elements at the very core of their new society.

Just because some outcasts returned to the fringe of night elf society, doesn't magically change their outlook on these elements nor does it make easier relations, the shen'dralar were received frosty and are treated frosty in almost every single interaction we have seen throughout the entirety of the lore material. So why should nightborne be treated any better and why would nightborne in turn accept such a treatment.


In terms of factions the most logical conclusion would have been a neutral suramar and no playable nightborne whatsoever.

What did the night elves deliberately reject? What does the lore show you.

And you keep trying g to frame the shen'dralar and highborne as outcasts on the fringe of society, when the lore shows and tells they are accepted and shows them having a larger roles, students and followers that are certainly not fringe of society as you put it. You seem to want to colour the night elves current changes and acceptances of the arcane and their highborne in as minimalised a light as possible, and that is not what we are shown or told. If you want to ignore the proportion of night elf representation, lore, story, art assets dedicated to the arcane side of the night elves, it is certainly not minimal, nor fringe, and is quite considersble

[Garymorilix]

How is it a reach, the night elves are helping their nightborne kin throughout and 7.0, and when the Darnassians come along in 7.1, they help as much as the blood elves. Tyrande is more annoyed at her kin from the kun for addiction and letting the Legion in, so at first appears a less willing participants, but let's not forget she helps them just as much, and Iis proud of them for standing up to fight for her city this time round when they failed to 10,000 years ago, choosing to hide themselves and the last remaining city from everyone and all the survivors.

Let's also not forget all the other night elves that help throughout the campaign in 7.0 and 7.1, and you will get why he says the night elves help a lot more. Its night elves that help with the arcan'dor, night elves in Shal'aran with the nightfallen resistance.

Ermh. I dunno what Arcan'dor questline you played but I only remember literally one Night Elf guy there. Not like, a whole racially motivated aid campaign.

In fact, I just checked and Valewalker Farodin has literally no connection to playable Night Elves, as he's a hermit from ancient times from a semi-secret order of proto-druids.

Also, Night Elves and Nightborne are two different species (sub-species if you consider "elf" as a base-species).
So either they are different or every elven race should be called Trolls, as that's what they all are.

You can't simply group stuff you like and ignore the real origins of them.

[Combatbutler]

What did the night elves deliberately reject? What does the lore show you.

The rejection of the arcane lifestyle, meaning great cities and high society. The night elves did a deliberate 180 renouncing the empire and what it stood for.

And you keep trying g to frame the shen'dralar and highborne as outcasts on the fringe of society

Because they are, the lore is littered with evidence that they are treated as outcast by the general night elf population, they are tolerated but barely have any influence.

when the lore shows and tells they are accepted and shows them having a larger roles, students and followers that are certainly not fringe of society as you put it.

I really don't know what lore you are reading , but there is almost nothing to support a great deal of night elves embracing the old way of life or being kind to the shen'dralar.

You seem to want to colour the night elves current changes and acceptances of the arcane and their highborne in as minimalised a light as possible, and that is not what we are shown or told. If you want to ignore the proportion of night elf representation, lore, story, art assets dedicated to the arcane side of the night elves, it is certainly not minimal, nor fringe, and is quite considersble

It is not, I have yet to see the shen'dralar playing a crucial role in anything or even their students being generally accepted in their society, whenever we have an interaction it is quite hostile, yet all you do is saying they are crucial and accepted and now I want hard proof, with night elves deliberately telling shen'dralar highborne they are welcome in their society without any kind of negativity attached. I want books, short stories, Quests with links pages etc.

Go on I am waiting

[Feanoro]

Grats NB, everything unique went bye bye so you could be the purple BElves. Besides, all the effort put into Suramar, the whole campaign, the story over multiple patches culminating in a good raid... of course it's for the Horde. Alliance gets generic space rock #495 and a lazy asspull to justify BElf models.

[Tripzzz]

It is not, I have yet to see the shen'dralar playing a crucial role in anything or even their students being generally accepted in their society, whenever we have an interaction it is quite hostile, yet all you do is saying they are crucial and accepted and now I want hard proof, with night elves deliberately telling shen'dralar highborne they are welcome in their society without any kind of negativity attached. I want books, short stories, Quests with links pages etc.

Go on I am waiting

Elegy clearly states the Night elves current views on mages.

"When a portal whirled open, the normally reserved night elves cheered. The magi who stepped through, who until this moment had only cautiously been made welcome in Darnassus, smiled in surprise. The cheers swelled when they each opened another portal—and reached a crescendo as, over the course of several minutes (and with not a few interruptions), a dozen bears, birds, and nightsabers came through."


That is the most recent interaction and there is zero negativity. Quite the opposite actually.

[Combatbutler]

Elegy clearly states the Night elves current views on mages.

"When a portal whirled open, the normally reserved night elves cheered. The magi who stepped through, who until this moment had only cautiously been made welcome in Darnassus, smiled in surprise. The cheers swelled when they each opened another portal—and reached a crescendo as, over the course of several minutes (and with not a few interruptions), a dozen bears, birds, and nightsabers came through."


That is the most recent interaction and there is zero negativity. Quite the opposite actually.

You forgot the keyword here, which was surprise. Meaning up until this very moment they were not used to positive treatment. Being cheered for in battle also does not mean much, since the most recent example of someone talking about Highborne and their handiwork is shandris in Nazjatar and lo and behold it is once again not positive at all.

[Donald Hellscream]

Because Tyrande was super distrustful where as Lady Liadrin was more sympathetic to the Nightborne's dependency on magic, not unlike that of the blood elves.

[Tripzzz]

You forgot the keyword here, which was surprise. Meaning up until this very moment they were not used to positive treatment. Being cheered for in battle also does not mean much, since the most recent example of someone talking about Highborne and their handiwork is shandris in Naz'jatar and lo and behold it is once again not positive at all.

Sure it took alot for them be be accepted. Whether it was a surpise or not doesn't change that though. That moment still happened. The fact is the Night elves are much more accepting of mages then before. You just want them to stagnate in that regard for whatever reason. Care to provide the Shandris quote? Not that Shandris alone would nullify what the night elves felt when they cheered for the mages that teleported wildlife.