Necromancer vs Tinker: Which class would be better for the game?

[Magical Mudcrab]

And Kel'thuzad was mcmurdered as a further deterrant against anyone wanting to go down the necromancy rabbit hole. Sure it caused Kel'thuzad to rise to power but he was also struck down pretty violently. Had it not been made illegal, it would have emboldened more spellcasters to fuck with necromancy and likely have led to many more problems. Risking ONE Kel'thuzad is better than allowing DOZENS.

It should be put out there we still don't know *what* happened to Kel'thuzad, he kinda just buggered off after Naxxramas.

That said, you're sort of downplaying how bad Kel'thuzad rising to power was and playing up the minimal risk of people using Necromancy. The fall of Lordaeron can be solely attributed to the Kirin Tor's banning of Necromancy and extreme aversion to it. This led to Kel'thuzad going to Northrend, being taught Necromancy by the Lich King, and returning to Lordaeron. After this the Cult of the Damned was formed (backed by Kel'thuzad, who was described as having a fortune) and the Plague of Undeath was spread, with the Kirin Tor being unable to do anything -- even countering the plague was outside of their ability. There's nothing to show that this scenario would have played out if the Kirin Tor hadn't banished Kel'thuzad and shunned all knowledge of Necromancy.

That said, there's already a tacit acceptance of Necromancy in the Alliance and Horde because of Death Knights, and there's not been a massive increase in usage of Necromancy since Wrath. We're in the situation where we're hypothetically risking dozens of Kel'thuzads, and the only active Necromancers are the remnants of the Cult of the Damned that Kel'thuzad founded. Other than that, there is Sylvanas, but plot armor stops her from facing consequences.

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Well not really since DKs are a class and Engineering is a profession.

Classes compete with one another. Professions do not compete with classes, and a character could be a Tinker class and of the Engineering profession at the same time.

Sure, but the idea that Death Knights could lose abilities to Necromancers when their only overlap is thematic and not in terms of actual spells (there was no Necromancer hero class in WC3 to go off of) is the same concern that Engineering could be removed or lose patterns because Tinkers share the same, loose theme (but nothing else). The point is that both concerns are completely absurd.

[Teriz]

Sure, but the idea that Death Knights could lose abilities to Necromancers when their only overlap is thematic and not in terms of actual spells (there was no Necromancer hero class in WC3 to go off of) is the same concern that Engineering could be removed or lose patterns because Tinkers share the same, loose theme (but nothing else). The point is that both concerns are completely absurd.

That would be because the Death Knight was the Necromancer hero unit.

The idea that Engineering would lose schematics because of a class is nonsense. The class wouldn't use schematics because its not building items. It uses abilities.

[FelPlague]

Thats not how it works. Death knights were strong against undead and plague (since they are technically dead), demon hunters were strong against demons, monks were... wat, tinkers are strong against old gods shenanigans.

Do you forget that one of the new azerite essecens is a laser beam from mother, a giant machine, which does extra damage and stuns old god minions? And can even instance kill them?

The whole point of the titans were to battle old gods, so yeah of course a class based on constructs will be good at it, also dk's were not "super good against undead" they were literally part of the undead and joined us, only demon hunters were "good against x"

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BTW I fucking love all the people here going "lol imagine an alchemist class, tinkerers would be that bad." But then in literally the next post. "One of the specs would be chemical, or alchemist and that wouldn't overlap with anything, that why necromancer perfect."

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A dark shaman theme does not fit in the current shaman's theme or its 3 specs, so I bet with enough creativity, a witch doctor/dark shaman class is possible. Even then, such a class could fit in my mad scientist/blood healer/undead turning Necromancer theme

Mad scientist theme? Hmm... Scientist... Sounds a lot like.. A tinkerer...

[Teriz]

Honestly a Tinker spec based on the alchemist hero from WC3 makes more sense than an "alchemy" spec created just to avoid overlap with DK diseases.

Also it would be a lot more original.

[bigbluey]

The only two classes I see as viable.

Blood Mage - Two specs,
First spec dps, The ability to spend ones own hp to do damage.
Second Spec Healing, ability to spend own hp to increase others.

Tinkerer - A proper engineer class
I cant see tank being viable unless it involves bubbles or abilities that reduce the bosses damage and not damage you take like other tanks.
So if they did a tank it might shoot glue to slow the power of the mobs attacks or something, i'm not sure I would like a tinkerer tank.
Dps is simply just bombs and turrets.
Healing could be cool, They could use water bombs or vials and medic bots.

[Amunrasonther]

Okay, give me some examples of "Mad Scientist" Necromancers outside of the Scourge/Forsaken.

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=52053/zanzil#abilities

And you're trying to push goalposts now. You had said it was fine for Death Knights to get powers associated with the Scourge because they were once scourge units. So are Necromancers.

Yeah, all based around poison and plague. Death Knights already do most of that through magic. It's just disease instead of poison.

There are Necromancers who use poison without any relation to plague (Zanzil, Grand Widow, Krick), and I already showed you in a previous thread that there is only one Necromancer in-game who uses a plague spell and its nature-based. Death Knights don't use poison, nature magic, nor alchemy.

Demonic Leap, Chaos Wave, Immolation Aura, Touch of Chaos, Nether Plating, Carrion Swarm

All of which were tied to one ability, Meta, and again never really belonged to them to begin with. As I said, the spec was always regarded as garbage and Blizzard tried to throw in flashy gimmicks to make the spec more interesting.

Healing is rarely attached to a ranged spell caster class as well.

Uh...there's not a single ranged caster in-game who can also tank, and there's what, 3 spell casters who can deal ranged dps and heal? (Priests, Shamans, Druids).

Can you find some examples of a Necromancer NPC using blood magic to heal others?

No need. The playable class version doesn't exist. Blood magic is part of necromancy, blood magic is used to heal, and there is no blood healer niche in-game. It's an open opportunity.

And neither have specs dedicated to Elementals.

It doesn't matter how "dedicated" they are. What matters is they can. Not to mention, Frost mages have the option of making their elemental an important part of their spec, and an Elemental Shaman's elemental is also a major part of their dps and resource system.

No, they just use poison and potion bombs. That's a problem.

Potion Bomb* singular. Not plural, and it being a talent for one spec shows they're not really "dedicated" to poison bombs...lol

Two classes sharing a theme or school of magic has never been a problem, there are countless examples in-game. Besides, Necromancers would poison through magic and alchemy. Rogues poison through their weapons. Poison Bomb isn't even an active ability. It's a passive talent that occurs through their melee attacks.

Except it's growing apparent that you have no basis for these differences. You're just making them up as you go along.

Everything I listed has a basis in-game except for a blood healer specialization. Those are facts whether you like it or not.

[Magical Mudcrab]

That would be because the Death Knight was the Necromancer hero unit.

The idea that Engineering would lose schematics because of a class is nonsense. The class wouldn't use schematics because its not building items. It uses abilities.

Except that's not true. Death Knights, Liches, and even Crypt Lords were all undead hero units -- Death Knights were not the Necromancer hero unit. There were Necromancer units, but there wasn't a Necromancer hero.

Just because you have thematic overlap, that doesn't mean something will be removed -- the only class that has really suffered because of this is Warlocks, but they've also lost abilities to classes they have no thematic overlap with (Death Knights are the prime example, who took Deathcoil). So if you do want to go down the path that Necromancers will steal abilities, then someone can just as easily say that Tinkers will take abilities from unrelated classes (if you can vaguely conceive of some reason they could take it, they could take it). Further, a pattern being removed isn't outside the realm of possibility if the Tinker class were to - for example - be able to craft certain patterns or affix things to their gear as part of their toolkit (such as rocket boots). Anyone with a hint of imagination can conceive of ways that a Tinker class could conceivably overlap with Engineering. But that said, both claims are nonsense, and, again, that's the point. Fear mongering about stealing abilities is silly.

[Amunrasonther]

Mad scientist theme? Hmm... Scientist... Sounds a lot like.. A tinkerer...

Nope, Mad Scientists are synonymous with apothecaries and alchemists. Tinkers are engineers - not alchemists. Additionally, alchemy and necromancy go hand in hand.

[Jawless Jones]

We don't need more classes, especially ones that intrude upon themes of existing classes/specs/professions.

Necromancers are already represented by Unholy DK's and Affliction Warlocks, both being DoT specs with minions.
What would Tinkers do that another class with Engineering couldn't? Mechs, turrets, and rockets; why couldn't any Engineer do that? Guns and traps; Hunters already got that covered. The entire classes theme is just the Engineering profession.

[cocomen2]

Teriz is biggest hypocrite i ever seen on this forum. 13 000 posts and 10 000 of them utterly trolling.

[kaminaris]

Teriz is biggest hypocrite i ever seen on this forum. 13 000 posts and 10 000 of them utterly trolling.

I don't think so, seems like people are supporting his opinion. He also makes sense about necro being too familiar to DK.

[Evaddon]

I don't see why people keep splitting them up, the two classes can easily mirror each other if Blizzard was to do such a thing.

Tinker (Alliance) Necromancer (Horde)
[shrug]

But I don't like the idea of Tinker, way to much of a gimmick for me to enjoy actively seeing them around WoW. But I can always be won over by dual pistols

[styil]

Tinkers are essentially like Monks in terms of niche appeal as evidenced by this random MMO champ poll. Necromancers have much more broader appeal as evidenced by the release of DK's, this random MMO champion poll withstanding. From a business standpoint, Necromancers seem like the obvious choice despite the minor logistical issues that would need to be ironed out.

[Dreyen]

The death knight is pretty much a necromancer honestly. I mean, not really, but they'd overlap too much IMO.

I guess it'd be tinker.. Although I'm not too sold on the class concept I guess. I prefer less memeish classes

[Teriz]

https://www.wowhead.com/npc=52053/zanzil#abilities

And you're trying to push goalposts now. You had said it was fine for Death Knights to get powers associated with the Scourge because they were once scourge units. So are Necromancers.

Yeah, but the example you're using here isn't Scourge, and it's highly unlikely that Blizzard would produce a second Necromancer class based on the Scourge.

There are Necromancers who use poison without any relation to plague (Zanzil, Grand Widow, Krick), and I already showed you in a previous thread that there is only one Necromancer in-game who uses a plague spell and its nature-based. Death Knights don't use poison, nature magic, nor alchemy.

Except Zanzil and Widow aren't connected, they're part of two completely different groups, and aren't even remotely the same class. Zanzil is a Witch Doctor and Widow is a scourge botanist. Consider that Death Knights all come from the Lich King, all Monks are trained by Pandaren, and all Demon Hunters came from the Illidari. An expansion class that combines Skullsplitter witch doctors, scourge scientists, Blood Trolls, and god knows what else doesnt seem likely.

Uh...there's not a single ranged caster in-game who can also tank, and there's what, 3 spell casters who can deal ranged dps and heal? (Priests, Shamans, Druids).

Those are hybrid classes. Priest is the only one, and it has two healing specs. Like I said "rarely".

No need. The playable class version doesn't exist. Blood magic is part of necromancy, blood magic is used to heal, and there is no blood healer niche in-game. It's an open opportunity.

In other words there's no example of blood being shown as a dedicated healer. Just another example of creating something that doesn't exist in order to differentiate them from DKs who also happen to use Blood magic to heal.

It doesn't matter how "dedicated" they are. What matters is they can. Not to mention, Frost mages have the option of making their elemental an important part of their spec, and an Elemental Shaman's elemental is also a major part of their dps and resource system.

It does matter because it's not remotely close to the same thing. Unholy revolves around summoning undead units, and so would a Necromancer class. UH summoning multitudes of undead minions isnt the same as Shaman summoning an elemental every few minutes, and a mage being able to only summon one thing.

Potion Bomb* singular. Not plural, and it being a talent for one spec shows they're not really "dedicated" to poison bombs...lol

No, their dedicated to poisons.

Two classes sharing a theme or school of magic has never been a problem, there are countless examples in-game. Besides, Necromancers would poison through magic and alchemy. Rogues poison through their weapons. Poison Bomb isn't even an active ability. It's a passive talent that occurs through their melee attacks.

Except no two classes share a theme.

[cocomen2]

I don't think so, seems like people are supporting his opinion. He also makes sense about necro being too familiar to DK.

So you okay with what he said :
DK much superior than Necromancer , because their plagues is magical and dont cost time on preparations and reagents ; All things that can be done by Necromancer, DK doing better.

Image that the same guy saying Tinker is so unique and superior theme class, while all concept of Tinkers is to do things that can be done by other classes but with science - that would work around him do preparations and gather materials and cost a lot more time by inventing new tech.


Not like there anything that Tinker can do, that cant be done by mages,priests,druids,shamans with powers of semi-godlike beings.
OFC if we not headcanon Tinker that would invent delorean-timetravel car and even after that there is timetravler dragons.

[Teriz]

Except that's not true. Death Knights, Liches, and even Crypt Lords were all undead hero units -- Death Knights were not the Necromancer hero unit. There were Necromancer units, but there wasn't a Necromancer hero.

Just because you have thematic overlap, that doesn't mean something will be removed -- the only class that has really suffered because of this is Warlocks, but they've also lost abilities to classes they have no thematic overlap with (Death Knights are the prime example, who took Deathcoil). So if you do want to go down the path that Necromancers will steal abilities, then someone can just as easily say that Tinkers will take abilities from unrelated classes (if you can vaguely conceive of some reason they could take it, they could take it). Further, a pattern being removed isn't outside the realm of possibility if the Tinker class were to - for example - be able to craft certain patterns or affix things to their gear as part of their toolkit (such as rocket boots). Anyone with a hint of imagination can conceive of ways that a Tinker class could conceivably overlap with Engineering. But that said, both claims are nonsense, and, again, that's the point. Fear mongering about stealing abilities is silly.

By all means, name the abilities that a Tinker class would take from existing classes.

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So you okay with what he said :
DK much superior than Necromancer , because their plagues is magical and dont cost time on preparations and reagents ; All things that can be done by Necromancer, DK doing better.

Image that the same guy saying Tinker is so unique and superior theme class, while all concept of Tinkers is to do things that can be done by other classes but with science - that would work around him do preparations and gather materials and cost a lot more time by inventing new tech.

Yeah you missed the point; If you have a class with an alchemy spec used to spread plagues through potion pitching, that plays second fiddle to a DK that can spread plagues instantly through magic.

Not like there anything that Tinker can do, that cant be done by mages,priests,druids,shamans with powers of semi-godlike beings.

Which is like saying Ironman was useless in the Avengers.

[Fred Skinner]

Tinker my ass. If the next expac is about another Scourge and Sylvanas as Lich Queen, Necromancer would be the next hero class to go.

[cocomen2]

Tinker and science has place only like counterpart for weakling beings who dont posses GOD-like powers (druids,shamans,paladins,priests,ect); so its already concept of underdog common folk people who were not luky to have talent or blessings, will of power to attain maybe forbidden power.

Yet someone think that its still unique cool concept that dont has rivals , image asking any engineer in RL would you want to have superpowers of said classes, or we can give you engi-kit tools and send you off in world that full of gods,demons and other horrible shit. Some r@tards gonna say its fair deal and take screwdriver.

[Pebrocks The Warlock]

Some r@tards gonna say its fair deal and take screwdriver.

You can disagree and not like a potential class but there is no reason to insult others for their opinions/ideas.