would horde players have accepted a more sincere rebellion

[KaPe]

When you burn down the capital of your enemy it's a huge victory. You won't think "ho no, what did we do? They'll be stronger than ever!" They'll be angry, not suicidal, and way weaker.

Night Elves have lived through their leader betraying them, *summoning the Legion and nearly bringing Sargeras himself to Azeroth*. Who in their right mind would think that killing thousands of civilians and burning their capital would instantly bring them to their knees? They have survived worse - and even Malfurion's death wouldn't be a blow they couldn't recover from.

[Feanoro]

Who in their right mind would think that killing thousands of civilians and burning their capital would instantly bring them to their knees?

Writers like Danuser Cringecaller who don't know or give a damn about anything written before them?

[Tarba]

Night Elves have lived through their leader betraying them, *summoning the Legion and nearly bringing Sargeras himself to Azeroth*. Who in their right mind would think that killing thousands of civilians and burning their capital would instantly bring them to their knees? They have survived worse - and even Malfurion's death wouldn't be a blow they couldn't recover from.

It kills soldiers, destroys weapons, supplies, stronghold, ressources, economy and moral.
The ressources they kept will have to be used to rebuild themselves. And their civilians become a weight for their allies. They'll have to spend food and gold for them while still at war.

The alliance get out way weaker in a non retarded world.
Surviving is a thing. Being more dangerous after losing so much is a joke.

[KaPe]

The alliance get out way weaker in a non retarded world.
Surviving is a thing. Being more dangerous after losing so much is a joke.

In non retarded world, the Horde would be annihilated shortly after starting this conflict. They had a massive civil war only a few years earlier but somehow managed to become equal to the Alliance once again. And, of course, any trump cards the Alliance had were conveniently removed offscreen, like the Vindicaar or dumbed down during crucial moment, with major characters falling to obvious ploys like children or "massive" powerups becoming useless.

In non retarded world, genocide would provoke a brutal, instant response, not "we are better than them" and "they might have killed thousands of civilians, but SURELY they won't use the Blight against us." And if not from the Alliance, then at least the honor worshipping fools should have acted sooner.

[Soon-TM]

In non retarded world, the Horde would be annihilated shortly after starting this conflict. They had a massive civil war only a few years earlier but somehow managed to become equal to the Alliance once again. And, of course, any trump cards the Alliance had were conveniently removed offscreen, like the Vindicaar or dumbed down during crucial moment, with major characters falling to obvious ploys like children or "massive" powerups becoming useless.

In non retarded world, genocide would provoke a brutal, instant response, not "we are better than them" and "they might have killed thousands of civilians, but SURELY they won't use the Blight against us." And if not from the Alliance, then at least the honor worshipping fools should have acted sooner.

Who needs the Vindicaar when you have Jaina deus ex machina Proudmoore...

[KaPe]

Who needs the Vindicaar when you have Jaina deus ex machina Proudmoore...

Well, appearently, a random Blood Elf mage is enough to occupy her full attention during the recent Baine scenario. Not much of a deus ex machina in this case, it would seem. 'Sides, it's usually DEM being used to counter everyone else being conveniently turned into morons and forgetting any military tactics. Or Stormwind nearly burning down from a single torch. Or Nathanos being pretty much the same, except on the other side.

[Brocksley]

Assuming we HAD to have a faction war this expansion, even though it makes zero sense after Legion's efforts to unite us, I don't get why we had to have a stupid rebellion and civil war again to accompany it. Why didn't they just cut all that story out, and leave us with a united Horde under Sylvanas. The BFA trailer was so hype. Horde was getting smashed, then Sylvanas jumps in and rallies the troops and it looked like we were going to have a unified Horde with a leader that could do it. Why not stick with that? We could still have a faction conflict without having a Horde civil war again.

[Zulkhan]

Saurfang being too much of a pussy to challenge his hated Sylvanas doesn't mean that all orcs are like that. Much less all of the Horde.

Saurfang should be the best the Orcish race has to offer, the fact that we are now arguing whether he's a "pussy" or not just shows how hilariously bad Blizzard has handled the character in this expansion.

I'm pretty sure you can bubble against the Blight. So you'd need to be able to keep throwing blight at the paladin until their bubble runs out, like Krosus did to Tirion with his fel attack. Also, how exactly does Sylvanas use Blight in a Mak'gora?

As explained before, by coating her arrows into a determined quantity of it. And again, the difference would be made by the actual potency of the strain used for that kind of weaponry.

We could still have a faction conflict without having a Horde civil war again.

Hell, we could even have inner faction drama without escalating things to "LOL REBELLION" level again. But Blizzard just can't resist from turning everything into an overblown mess.

[Zulkhan]

Wouldn't the blight eat the arrow shafts?

I guess it depends from the technique used to coat them, it could be made in a way that the Blight wouldn't "spread" out of the arrow until the moment of its impact against a selected target. Besides, as @Mehrunes mentioned, this trick was displayed in Stormheim by Nathanos.

[Traveler Voltin]

Wouldn't the blight eat the arrow shafts?

blight only works on organics.

[Mehrunes]

I'm pretty sure you can bubble against the Blight. So you'd need to be able to keep throwing blight at the paladin until their bubble runs out, like Krosus did to Tirion with his fel attack. Also, how exactly does Sylvanas use Blight in a Mak'gora?

If that was the case in-lore Bolvar wouldn't just wait to get melted at Wrathgate. As for Blight in Mak'gora, Blight-coated arrows have been used before by Nathanos and Sylvanas. Whether they can be used depends on whether an archer can take special arrows or just normal ones. Given how melee weapons like Gorehowl and Doomhammer are OK despite being powerful magical artifacts, limiting an archer to standard arrows would seem kinda unfair though. Especially since Sylvanas wouldn't fight a traditional mak'gora and non-traditional ones are flexible when it comes to the rules.

That's really not true against a race of guerilla warriors. If anything, pinning them inside a city and forcing them to protect it instead of fighting across a vast woodland is the best strategic option for fighting the Night Elves.

The Night Elves proved time and time again that they are going to get steamrolled by the Horde in the forests if they don't have human potential to bail them out.

In non retarded world, the Horde would be annihilated shortly after starting this conflict. They had a massive civil war only a few years earlier but somehow managed to become equal to the Alliance once again. And, of course, any trump cards the Alliance had were conveniently removed offscreen, like the Vindicaar or dumbed down during crucial moment, with major characters falling to obvious ploys like children or "massive" powerups becoming useless.

Except even the majority of the Orcs turned against Garrosh. And prior to the Darkspear Rebellion Alliance had its ass handed to it, losing most of its fleet, multiple zones, a city, multiple highest ranking officers and a ton of troops. The idea that Alliance was some unstoppable behemoth after MoP is an unfounded fantasy. And then Alliance got hit harder by the Iron Horde, losing Taylor's entire expedition and prior to that one of their largest strongholds on Azeroth. Arguably they suffered more at Broken Shore as well. They have no capacity to destroy the Horde. If anything, given the faction power balance established by Blizzard itself in A Good War, Alliance should have been destroyed at Lordaeron before they even landed. And the Horde gets dumbed down and forbidden from using its arsenal to full capacity as well.

Saurfang should be the best the Orcish race has to offer, the fact that we are now arguing whether he's a "pussy" or not just shows how hilariously bad Blizzard has handled the character in this expansion.

Is he, though?

Wouldn't the blight eat the arrow shafts?

Maybe they're some light metal. Or perhaps the arrow heads are hollow and the Blight is inside. Who knows how Forsaken ingenuity solved that problem.

EDIT: Checked things out, and judging by the amount of Blight around the corpse hit by Sylvanas, it seems like indeed it was a hollow arrowhead filled with Blight. And even then that pool still seems large. Although the whole arrow has some spiraling green aura and the arrowhead is green. So maybe it's made of crystallized Blight.

[Zulkhan]

What you could do, and perhaps you are just representing it a bit poorly is not "coat the arrows" but rather create hollow arrowheads filled with Blight that shatter on impact.

I still went with "coated" since I can't remember if the green Blight could be visible on the arrow during the shot or, which would fully support the idea, the Blight was visible only when it reached the target (with the typical "splash" animation).

- - - Updated - - -

Is he, though?

Eh, considering the grave lack of remarkable characters in the Azeroth side of Orcs, Saurfang was almost everything we have been left with. And now only Eitrigg has remained to maintain some kind of dignity, the oldest of the old farts.

[Traveler Voltin]

Arrow shafts are made of wood.

- - - Updated - - -



Oh cool. I only remember Black Arrow usage, not blight.

What you could do, and perhaps you are just representing it a bit poorly is not "coat the arrows" but rather create hollow arrowheads filled with Blight that shatter on impact.

have we seen blight melt wood? i dont think so. also wood stops being a living thing when its cut down.

[arandomuser]

if you read a good war saurfang in sylvanas talk about faking in fighting to distract the alliance, saurfang is actually a plant

[Mehrunes]

have we seen blight melt wood? i dont think so. also wood stops being a living thing when its cut down.

We've seen Blight melt a house.

[Zuben]

When Garrosh was stomping all over non-orc races of the Horde most players could agree he had to go. It didn't make for a good story and ended sourly for both factions, but that wasn't the fault of the rebellion as a concept but of poor writing. BFA hasn't been much better off in that regard, but even as a concept the rebellion is less desirable this time around, since Sylvanas hasn't yet stomped on Horde's citizens like Garrosh was. The rebellion is based largely on ideology of honor, which states that the Horde should wage war in a specific way rather than the more effective way Sylvanas is doing it. Her methods have been horrific at times, reaching culmination with the burning of Teldrassil and during the battle for Lordaeron when she blighted even her own troops to gain a decisive edge in the battle (would've been successful without Jaina ex Machina...), but they all have served Horde's greater interests. In comparison Saurfang's/Baine's honor has stripped Horde of decisive maneuvers that might have been able to conclude the war, and the laughable part of it is that they had to directly kill Horde troops to pull them off. Not the SS-division like Garrosh's True Horde, but regular troops who were following orders during wartime.

Should Sylvanas ultimately turn on the citizenry then the rebellion would have something objective to stand on, but for the duration of BFA up to this point it's all been a choice of ideology. If she indeed sends her forces to siege Thunder Bluff we may see such an event, but honestly? Why the hell would she? There hasn't been signs tauren are unanimously following Baine; blood elves certainly aren't unanimously following Lorthemar as evident in Magister Hathorel's defiance in the recent scenario, and Liadrin has been rather dedicated to fighting the Alliance in Arathi. Attacking Thunder Bluff would also open another warfront during a time when Horde's forces are spread thin. I think Thrall considering it a target is a red herring.

I'm still optimistic enough to believe that the conclusion for Loyalists won't be forced into agreeing with the rebellion. One factor that makes me think so is that the cinematics and questlines have largely been from the Rebel-side's perspective, with Loyalist perspective being limited pretty much to Nathanos stating things went according to Sylvanas's calculations. I believe a twist is coming that will take the story to an unexpected path.

[Zulkhan]

When Garrosh was stomping all over non-orc races of the Horde most players could agree he had to go. It didn't make for a good story and ended sourly for both factions, but that wasn't the fault of the rebellion as a concept but of poor writing. BFA hasn't been much better off in that regard, but even as a concept the rebellion is less desirable this time around, since Sylvanas hasn't yet stomped on Horde's citizens like Garrosh was. The rebellion is based largely on ideology of honor, which states that the Horde should wage war in a specific way rather than the more effective way Sylvanas is doing it. Her methods have been horrific at times, reaching culmination with the burning of Teldrassil and during the battle for Lordaeron when she blighted even her own troops to gain a decisive edge in the battle (would've been successful without Jaina ex Machina...), but they all have served Horde's greater interests. In comparison Saurfang's/Baine's honor has stripped Horde of decisive maneuvers that might have been able to conclude the war, and the laughable part of it is that they had to directly kill Horde troops to pull them off. Not the SS-division like Garrosh's True Horde, but regular troops who were following orders during wartime.

Sylvanas deserves to be criticized over several matters (included starting a war over conjectures, despite how sound and palatable they were) since her so-called "pragmatism" is often tainted by emotional instability and borderline nihilism, which turns her into just the other extreme of the spectrum compared to the "honorbound" crew, not the "pragmatic" alternative. Even her raising and use of Derek leads to some legitimate questioning, among other things.

But here's the thing, this was never a matter about Sylvanas being "unjustly" criticized, it's about Blizzard being so dull and unimaginative that instead of taking a seemingly "Garrosh-again" situation and dealing with it in a more original and unprecedented manner, they are literally repeating the same exact pattern even though the overall situation is quite different, which is why the development looks forced and almost grotesque. In fact, it would have been a great chance to create an inner conflict within the Horde, turning into a series of political moves and power struggles, with the Alliance dealing with their own inner conflicts in a similar manner. But no, why try something different when you have the blueprint of the "perfect" storyline in one of your previous expansions, you just need to push Sylvanas and everyone who opposes her into full blown retardation, throw the seeds of another "rebellion" and incoming civil war out of nowhere and have the Alliance tag along the rebels to fight the evil Horde tyrant.

[Mehrunes]

I think the central idea is that the actual plan has nothing to do with the Horde and instead is about Death or something similar so when Sylvanas' plans are finally revealed, the Horde will realise they were just being used.

You mean the Horde that swears to the Warchief to be his or her literal tools? If that's supposed to be the grand reveal central idea then that central idea is shit. The Horde is always used by the Warchief. By design.

[Kumorii]

You mean the Horde that swears to the Warchief to be his or her literal tools? If that's supposed to be the grand reveal central idea then that central idea is shit. The Horde is always used by the Warchief. By design.

Maybe it's just blizzard way of horde going woke?

[Violent]

The Garrosh story was crap the first time for both sides of the playerbase, and it's crap a second time. This whole "war" was an excuse for war mode in a desperate attempt to revive pvp after years of ability arms races and screwing around with the model.

"revive" Haha.. As if Pvp was/is or had been any where near "death".

Actually Warmode was for you silly PvE'ers who cried everytime you got killed out in the world by anything other than a scripted NPC. "This isn't the game!"

Nice try there tho.. PvP dead, HAHAHA