[Megathread] Final Fantasy XIV

[dope_danny]

Jesus H Christ. I just had an amourot as RDM where i had to cast verraise on the healer 22 times on the final boss. By the end they just said 'i give up' in party chat and didnt accept the res anymore and we killed it anyway. Quite a few times this week i've even seen sprouts on E4 normal dying and refusing to accept a res and take a carry. I'm having flashbacks to cataclysm lfr -_-

[KrayZ33]

Let's pretend for a second you don't have positionals. brambles forces you to run to your corner, you then gap close or walk back. Nothing changes. Either way you're still going back to the boss to either the flank or side depending on preference because you don't want to get cleaved.

I could however pop my True North when I go back if my next GCD is a positional and I can't reach it the moment I'm in range (i.e. flank)

Nothing really changes. You will still get shit having a boss against a puddle without positionals. Nothing changes here.

Why would you get shit for it when DPS can still DPS just fine?

You'd do this regardless of whether positionals existed or not.

No, because I wouldn't need elusive jump to get into range. And running back takes the same time as using Elusive jump - Elusive jump covers more distance in the same amount of time. It's not always a time save or uptime improvement because of animation lock.

i.e.:

x --o- boss (rear)

I'm X, using elusive jump will get me to "rear", running to o will get me into melee range

But, how is it relevant if 90% of the content doesn't need the additional damage it adds, the game doesn't provide you a measurement to validate it's relevancy, and generally can't even see/feel the difference barring RT?>

The game does, it has dummies that are on a timer. It has a healthbar and enrage timers.
When you hit a 1% enrage or struggle with DPS checks, what's the first thing you do? You try to optimize the damage you do in an encounter. Positionals are also part of that - just like rotations or priorities. I don't see you complaining about having multiple abilities even though you could also go to the boss and press 1 1 1 1 1 1. "Same thing, the encounter would play out the exact same way"

What? I can handle them just fine, I just don't find them fun (for reasons previously cited). I can handle doing an 10,000 row excel sheet manually just fine, but I don't find it fun.

?? That's not what I said. There are people that can't handle them - and then there are people that can handle them. That's reason enough for them to exist. Players can get an edge and if you think you don't need that edge, you don't use them. So - who's to say it needs to change? It doesn't need to change. They are perfect the way they are. Why would people be bothered by them if they don't care?

How the hell did that sentence make sense to you as you typed it?

Give me a reason why someone would be bothered by them if that someone can handle the positionals just fine.

i.e.
"I don't like them because as @Baconeggcheese stated it's tedious more often than not to work around them, and in some cases, even designed cases they're irrelevant. Why keep something around that you have to add a button (True North) to help mitigate the frustration of? Or when some of the encounters don't even use positionals, Leviathan for instance, and AOE doesn't use them either?"

That whole statement is fucked up beyond measure, if you can't be assed to care about the extra DPS, ignore it, the game allows you to do so
What is it in the first place now? Tedious to work around, but at the same time irrelevant? If it's irrelevant, ignore it. If encounters exist that don't require them, be happy, since they are tedious for you(?)
At the same time hower, for some reason, they are not irrelevant, because people bother using them. Why do they bother using them?
Because the extra DPS matters. They don't change the way I game, yet I have to "work around them"? Huh? Frustrating, yet irrelevant, yet doesn't add anything, yet the difference in damage can't be felt? Why is it frustrating then?

Everything in that quote is contradicting itself and it's confusing the heck out of me.


To sum it up, here is what positionals do:

1. They add movement to the encounter
2. They make jobs feel different depending on when and how often I have to move
3. They add an edge for min-max players that would otherwise *not exist*

Here are some points that they don't do:

4. They are not required to beat most/all of the content
5. They are not required to do basic rotations
6. They are not required to apply buffs and debuffs


That means, "bad players" can use them whenever they feel safe to do so, you won't be a complete pile of shite if you don't use them.
That also means, "good players" can optimize their rotation, positioning, cooldowns, mechanics with them in mind. They won't make bosses a cakewalk, yet at the same time, they can give you the edge you need to carry a weaker player through or simply satisfy your own urge to improve yourself and do a perfect score/kill.

[StrawberryZebra]

See I'm confused as to why tanks and healers need complex dps rotations, they arent green and blue dps. The point of having easy rotations is that they can focus on healing and tanking since messing up as a tank or healer leads to wipes much moreso than messing up on a dps. I feel as though if someone is playing those roles for a complex rotation they chose the wrong reason.

The problem with healers at the moment isn't so much their DPS rotations as much as it is having skills that are very similar. For instance, the White Mage has Tetragrammaton which is a 700 Potency instant heal ability, and Afflatus Rapture, which is a 700 Potency instant heal. While there are minor differences in the two, they're ultimately pretty interchangable in their use. Scholar has 2 different versions of the same AoE, Indomidability, Fey Blessing and then you have Sacred Soil and Seraphic Illumination which are pretty much identical too.

There are a lot of skills healers have currently that could be cut and barely anyone would notice it's that bad. They could use a lot more in the way of healing variety to make things more interesting. To borrow examples from WoW, a Priest Prayer of Mending is a very unique mechanic, so is Pennance. And Lightwell before it was removed. FF14 has played it way too safe with their job mechanics and it's starting to show badly with Tanks and Healers right now.

When you put super basic 1-2-3 rotations and 1 button DPS spam into that kind of situation it rapidly brings all the other flaws to the surface. By forcing players to also have to focus on a slightly more complex DPS rotation, you help mask the fact that the other half of their role is extremely shallow.

Now, speaking personally I want more engaging DPS rotations as a tank because I'm bored. There's absolutely 0 complexity to tanking or my rotation.

Which is the same reason I'm all for more complex healer DPS rotations. It gets very apparent that I'm clearing a dungeon using just 4 buttons out of a stack of 3 hotbars full of skills. I do occasionally have to use Rescue or perhaps even Esuna, which is all very exciting!

And, as I outlined above, it doesn't even feel as though whichever heal I do decide to go with is going to be the wrong choice because they're all virtually identical anyway. The entire gameplay loop for Healers this expansion is very low risk/ low reward. You just hit whatever and it'll be fine. I find myself very quickly losing interest. To the point where, for the first time ever, I'm putting some actual effort into leveling DPS jobs.

[Irian]

I'm not sure why I always hear people imply that WoW has less engaging class gameplay or something. XIV has never really excelled over other games in this regard.

Opinions are a funny thing.

To clarify exactly why I feel that way, it's because WoW classes don't interact with each other, generally follow a really simple trend of "filler, CD, proc" and lead to a boring and sterile gameplay feeling. It goes beyond that but without writing a paragraph about it I'll just say that the design of playing a any role in WoW feels like it's made to be idiot-proof and so easy that a toddler could grasp it, without any depth underneath.

See I'm confused as to why tanks and healers need complex dps rotations, they arent green and blue dps.

They aren't, and don't. But when every tank and healer has the exact same behavior it leads to a pretty boring experience. DPSing as a healer has never been exactly what I'd call hard but it was way more interesting before they gave every healer almost exactly the same DPS kits.

Scholar used to be a class that focused on dots, with WHM having a strong presence with burst AoE and AST providing cards to make up for their low personal damage. Without this kind of stuff it just feels less fun.

[Baconeggcheese]

@Irian What's funny to me when I keep seeing these discussions is that WoW classes are become *more* like FF14 jobs with legion / bfa. For instance Affliction is trying so hard to be a summoner. They removed all depth from the classes and you pretty much just do exactly what you're supposed to without much if any thought... like FF14's jobs... you are pigeon holed into focusing on an individual spec on a class.. like how people focus on individual jobs.

The issue is FF14 built itself around these things, where WoW had built itself around the opposite. So while it works for FF14, it doesn't work at all in WoW. Its just odd seeing people criticize what WoW's classes have / are becoming while praising the game that they're becoming more like.

[Remilia]

Sidebar - E1S: can Gravity be mitigated? I know it does % max health, but my healers keep fucking letting me die to auto's or straight from it because I'm not topped off and I don't have a CD up for it at that point (might rework my CD rotation), but I know for a fact it can't be sheltron'd, but wasn't sure if it could be % reduced.

For SCH at least, Excog (the <50% afk heal) should at least be cast prior to it and it'll instantly get you back up a decent amount.
AST noct shield/dignity if there's no SCH to bubble.
And WHM as gran already noted.

[Graeham II]

I took down Titania EX! A little late, I know, though I didn't have much luck with Crystal's party finder...but managed to do it with a couple of FC friends and some competent randoms. Going to try Innocence EX tomorrow which I hear is easier.

[Granyala]

It is. More instagib mechanics than Titania but overall less complex.

[KrayZ33]

I'm really not sure how much I should invest in a conversation if you lack the imagination to come up with a reason other than, "Can't handle it" for why an individual might dislike any given thing.

Then, maybe shut up or something, I don't know?
I'm not interested in discussion something with someone who dislikes things for no apparent reason other than "I dislike it - it's not my thing" either.

As they are designed currently, they are fine for both individuals who want to optimize DPS and fine for those who just don't want to bother with them - either strategy is valid. If you add importance to them - the "no positonal faction" can't justify it them not having much of an impact anymore.
If you remove them, the "pro positional faction" lose something they could've done to optimize their gameplay.

Simple. No need to change a working system.

[Wrecktangle]

I could however pop my True North when I go back if my next GCD is a positional and I can't reach it the moment I'm in range (i.e. flank)

But again, pretend for a second positionals don't exist so neither does TN. What do you do? You go back to the boss pick a safe place (rear/flank) and press buttons. It's an identical process flow. I won't argue that it's less movement, because it isn't, but it's not really a thought process. It's automatic and binary.

Why would you get shit for it when DPS can still DPS just fine?

The same reason you get shit for it in every other game, lack of space.

No, because I wouldn't need elusive jump to get into range. And running back takes the same time as using Elusive jump - Elusive jump covers more distance in the same amount of time. It's not always a time save or uptime improvement because of animation lock.

I'd still use elusive to get to the safe spot faster, even if I lose a fifth of a GCD to do it so my gameplay really wouldn't change. Is elusive really the same exact speed as running? You're confident in that or just guessing? I haven't tested it, but it definitely seems quicker than walking, so I'd be surprised.

The game does, it has dummies that are on a timer. It has a healthbar and enrage timers.
When you hit a 1% enrage or struggle with DPS checks, what's the first thing you do? You try to optimize the damage you do in an encounter. Positionals are also part of that - just like rotations or priorities. I don't see you complaining about having multiple abilities even though you could also go to the boss and press 1 1 1 1 1 1. "Same thing, the encounter would play out the exact same way"

This is misleading and you know it. What about crit, DH, and general weapon damage variances? That alone would skew potencies making the SSS trials bad determinant for this type of exercise and without 3rd party tools no way to compare those values.

1% wipe? no deaths and genuinely decent players? Check consumables first honestly. Then try it again with better uptime.

You don't see me complaining about 111111 because that would be bad design/play. It's a bell curve. Some features of the system add value and some detract it (IMO of course).

?? That's not what I said. There are people that can't handle them - and then there are people that can handle them. That's reason enough for them to exist. Players can get an edge and if you think you don't need that edge, you don't use them. So - who's to say it needs to change? It doesn't need to change. They are perfect the way they are. Why would people be bothered by them if they don't care?

Perfect? That implies no improvements to be made.

Give me a reason why someone would be bothered by them if that someone can handle the positionals just fine.

i.e.
"I don't like them because as @Baconeggcheese stated it's tedious more often than not to work around them, and in some cases, even designed cases they're irrelevant. Why keep something around that you have to add a button (True North) to help mitigate the frustration of? Or when some of the encounters don't even use positionals, Leviathan for instance, and AOE doesn't use them either?"

That whole statement is fucked up beyond measure, if you can't be assed to care about the extra DPS, ignore it, the game allows you to do so
What is it in the first place now? Tedious to work around, but at the same time irrelevant? If it's irrelevant, ignore it. If encounters exist that don't require them, be happy, since they are tedious for you(?)
At the same time hower, for some reason, they are not irrelevant, because people bother using them. Why do they bother using them?
Because the extra DPS matters. They don't change the way I game, yet I have to "work around them"? Huh? Frustrating, yet irrelevant, yet doesn't add anything, yet the difference in damage can't be felt? Why is it frustrating then?

Everything in that quote is contradicting itself and it's confusing the heck out of me.

I can see that it's confusing you because you aren't grasping my thoughts so let me try and clarify.

I believe that positionals are tedious more often than not and do not add more value than they detract and here's why:

• I don't like forced movement. I don't like the game telling me I have to do X to do maximum output. I want to be able to have the agency to decide where I want to stand and when based on my own critical thinking
• I hate button bloat and find True North to be an unnecessary button
• Positionals are irrelevant in AOE situations
• Positionals are irrelevant in some boss encounters
• You're at the mercy of a competent tank to successfully utilize them in some situations
• The netcode is sloppy and makes positionals awkward. Note I am not saying hard, but awkward and unintuitive, for instance just hitting your positional and then instantly moving out of the bonus spot during the animation
• Optimal use of positionals actually remove the movement aspect from them, because you just ride the hair trigger line and barely move between the bonuses

Now - positionals DO add some semblance of engagement. I won't argue otherwise, I simply believe that engagement benefit doesn't compensate for the things that I personally (and many others) dislike about them. Positionals are the main reason I play a tank and not a melee DPS. I would personally stand by the decision to remove them and add whatever lost engagement into a different combat system. I don't think we need to be any more reductive in design than SE has already become.

Hope that helps.

To clarify exactly why I feel that way, it's because WoW classes don't interact with each other, generally follow a really simple trend of "filler, CD, proc" and lead to a boring and sterile gameplay feeling. It goes beyond that but without writing a paragraph about it I'll just say that the design of playing a any role in WoW feels like it's made to be idiot-proof and so easy that a toddler could grasp it, without any depth underneath.

I actually hate how I have to rely on other classes for damage buffs and stuff, but agree that's strictly subjective. I know there are a lot of people who like your way, and a lot who like my way.

Regarding idiot-proof, I'm not sure you're being fair to FF14. I won't discount that you can mash buttons in WoW with no idea what you're doing and do decently, but that's hardly any different than FF14. I have no idea what I'm doing on some jobs, but if you just ABC and press oGCDs on CD you will do more damage than half the pugs I get. You don't even need an opener or advanced knowledge of the jobs. Just push the buttons as they light up and press your combos/keep your DoT up.

I know the common theme here is to hate on WoW, but I offered a pretty reasonable example of depth in the Ret spec.

For SCH at least, Excog (the <50% afk heal) should at least be cast prior to it and it'll instantly get you back up a decent amount.
AST noct shield/dignity if there's no SCH to bubble.
And WHM as gran already noted.

What's a SCH?

I kid. Good to know. No SCH in my group tho.

I took down Titania EX! A little late, I know, though I didn't have much luck with Crystal's party finder...but managed to do it with a couple of FC friends and some competent randoms. Going to try Innocence EX tomorrow which I hear is easier.

Grats homie.

Innocence is easier mechanics wise IMO, but it is a much tougher DPS check, but that's likely irrelevant nowadays with you guys being 20ilvl higher than when it was launched.

Simple. No need to change a working system.

US Healthcare system works. No need to improve that I guess.

[Sharby]

The problem with healers at the moment isn't so much their DPS rotations as much as it is having skills that are very similar. For instance, the White Mage has Tetragrammaton which is a 700 Potency instant heal ability, and Afflatus Rapture, which is a 700 Potency instant heal. While there are minor differences in the two, they're ultimately pretty interchangable in their use. Scholar has 2 different versions of the same AoE, Indomidability, Fey Blessing and then you have Sacred Soil and Seraphic Illumination which are pretty much identical too.

There are a lot of skills healers have currently that could be cut and barely anyone would notice it's that bad. They could use a lot more in the way of healing variety to make things more interesting. To borrow examples from WoW, a Priest Prayer of Mending is a very unique mechanic, so is Pennance. And Lightwell before it was removed. FF14 has played it way too safe with their job mechanics and it's starting to show badly with Tanks and Healers right now.

When you put super basic 1-2-3 rotations and 1 button DPS spam into that kind of situation it rapidly brings all the other flaws to the surface. By forcing players to also have to focus on a slightly more complex DPS rotation, you help mask the fact that the other half of their role is extremely shallow.



Which is the same reason I'm all for more complex healer DPS rotations. It gets very apparent that I'm clearing a dungeon using just 4 buttons out of a stack of 3 hotbars full of skills. I do occasionally have to use Rescue or perhaps even Esuna, which is all very exciting!

And, as I outlined above, it doesn't even feel as though whichever heal I do decide to go with is going to be the wrong choice because they're all virtually identical anyway. The entire gameplay loop for Healers this expansion is very low risk/ low reward. You just hit whatever and it'll be fine. I find myself very quickly losing interest. To the point where, for the first time ever, I'm putting some actual effort into leveling DPS jobs.

Funny enough when ShB first launched one of the first things I noticed about my whm was that tetragrammaton essentially lost its identity and purpose but at the same time both solace and the above are both unattractive options compared to rapture.

Back when ppl were saying that Whms needed nerfs I proposed that both lily spells have their potency reduced by 50 to make their counterparts, medica and tetragrammaton superior healingwise.

In hindsight I realize that this wouldnt really solve anything and just be a massive nerf. Now i think a good change if Whms still must be nerfed is that rapture still loses the potency but solace stays the same and tetragrammaton goes up to 800 cure potency.

This would give the ability its identity back as the emergency single target burst heal as well as letting the effectiveness match the CD, while also making solace more attractive while also reducing the dominance rapture has over p much every ability except assize.


As for things like indom and faerie ability being the same I disagree that its shallow because one is more powerful than the other when effective range cooldown comes into mind. The healers in FF are much better designed in this game. But again if we cannot agree on what good design or fun is I feel like we wont agree on anything LOL.


As for 4mans if you do them normally aka one pull at a time they arent supposed to be hard just an engaging way to do story content or complete a roulette that's why the trust system exists. It's not a fault of the game if game wasnt designed to have hardcore dungeons to begin with. However the way my friends and many other people run dungeons is pulling wall to wall.

Doing this requires me to use:

Temperance
Asylum
Holy
Divine Benison
Benediction
Assize
Holy
Lily abilities if long enough
Sometimes esuna
Swift cast
Cures 1 and 2
Presence of mind


I dont know about you but that's a giant piece of my kit including role abilities. Tanks also have to use all their abilities to survive too all while doing the most damage possible too.

I've died my fair share on my tanks and I've let my fair share of tanks die using the wrong heal at the wrong time. I do not agree that its braindead otherwise everyone would always pull wall to wall and while most people do a lot dont.


EDIT: Forgot to reply to the priest bit, PoM is largely fire and forget even if you place it on targets that arent taking damage because the duration is long and forgiving enough that they will take damage in the window and it's rare for it to expire.

Penance is only interesting by virtue of Attonement existing, and I think attonement is very cool and I want ff14 to have a similar mechanic and I believe the fourth healer or whm will be the ones to get it.

Lighrwell was absurdly clunky and that's why it was removed, the concept and theme of the ability was lovely and I wish it returned in some form but it would not work in FF at all. WoW is a bit different because groups had 10-25 players in them so itd get used but more often than not a lot of it went to waste and that's why it was deleted.


EDIT 2:

This has got me thinking and I believe I've arrived at the crux of why WoW's class design is suffering. Note that this does not mean it isnt fun nor that I think ff14 is pinnacle of design, replies involving either will be ignored.



Simply put, there's way too much to balance. Designing the game fresh out the gate with 20+ specs was a massive long term mistake that's really hurting in the long run. No one spec is allowed to have an edge in their kit or it's a disaster aka M+ outlaw rouge's. And unlike FF this imbalance bleeds into all levels of play. And it's why despite MoP being considered the peak of Class Design it was stupidly unbalanced. It's why specs now have to take turns patch by patch being viable and sometimes they go largely ignored for most of the xpac. It's why homogeny is such a widespread problem but unlike ff the kits are fully homogenized and very few classes escape this like Warlock but even those classes are problematic because last time I checked (correct me if I'm wrong) two of the three specs are miles behind Aff. It's not sustainable but at the same time the game still functions because Blizzard is very talented at making broken things work, idk how they are gonna solve this issue.

Ff14 is super refreshing to me because theres a lot less crowding.

Buff classes are actually allowed to exist because the game doesnt have spec bloat. One of the biggest strengths of this game gameplay wise is that it's incredibly readable. I know that if I'm playing bard and my buddy is playing mch on average I should ALWAYS do less damage than him because I give utility, and if that's not the case either hes playing wrong or my job is overturned. How do you even begin to do the same in WoW? If they want to change a single healer they have to keep in mind FIVE other healers that's insane and why balance takes sooooo long in WoW. To the point changes get delayed to mid expac or next xpac which is what's happening now. I was able to predict most of the Astrologian buffs because the game is clear cut enough to see issues not because I'm a whizz at balance. And these changes didnt take months and months and months to get deployed and I love that so much. Literally anyone can look at samurai black mage and machinist and look at logs to aee if they're doing the most damage and if they arent changes are needed and will happen without breaking the game. The devs reasoning for changes also lines up with my reasoning which means to mean the intent behind design is very very clear.

Maybe a drawback is that it might feel shallow but I'd gladly take that tradeoff over what WoW has any day of the week and I'll always defend that design.

[KrayZ33]

But again, pretend for a second positionals don't exist so neither does TN. What do you do? You go back to the boss pick a safe place (rear/flank) and press buttons. It's an identical process flow. I won't argue that it's less movement, because it isn't, but it's not really a thought process. It's automatic and binary.

Even it it is, why is that a probem? It's still something you can or can not do and you get different results depending on what you choose to do.
You are not forced in any way whatsoever to uphold positionals. Your class will play the exact same way. You are only required to do so if you want to be at 100%, but that is not something that has to change - because I'm also required to do my rotation properly. Or play in a specific way to reach that. It's the same thing, nothing special about it - just another variable.

The same reason you get shit for it in every other game, lack of space.

Nah.... maybe in some situations? Not allways though. Completely depends on what the boss is doing. I don't have to have "space" when the boss is not doing anything that requires me to have "space".

I'd still use elusive to get to the safe spot faster, even if I lose a fifth of a GCD to do it so my gameplay really wouldn't change. Is elusive really the same exact speed as running? You're confident in that or just guessing? I haven't tested it, but it definitely seems quicker than walking, so I'd be surprised.

It's not the same speed as running. I didn't say it's the same speed as running, I said the opposite.
I said it covers more distance in the same amount of time.
If you don't need the distance however, you gain nothing from using Elusive Jump, you might even lose out on DPS due to animations and clipping.

This is misleading and you know it. What about crit, DH, and general weapon damage variances? That alone would skew potencies making the SSS trials bad determinant for this type of exercise and without 3rd party tools no way to compare those values.

1% wipe? no deaths and genuinely decent players? Check consumables first honestly. Then try it again with better uptime.

?? I don't care about whether I had my average amounts of crits and direct hits. If I realized that I can optimize something to get us closer to the goal, I will do it - If I realized I didn't do as many positionals as I would have liked, I try to improve on that and it's already far more likely that we kill the boss if I do it correctly the next time. Because, as I mentioned
I don't need a DPS tool to realize how bad or good I did in that regard. why does that even matter? The tooltip already tells me how more more % damage I do if I uphold positionals compared to when I do not. So for the love of god, what is that nonsense with the third party tool all about?
When I do 140 potency instead of 100, I know I'm doing 40% more damage with that attack - that is all I need to know. Wether it'll end up being the 1%, 2%, 3% of the damage we need in the end doesn't matter, I know for a fact already how much the difference is between doing the positional and not. It's not like the computer generates a random number between 1-100 potency and gives you a wague description of "you are more likely to roll higher numbers if you fulfil the positional requirement"

I don't need to check FFlogs to see that a lo of my "True Thrusts" where, "True Thrusts" and not "Raiden Thrusts" I don't even have to look at my skill bar because I can tell from the floating combat text or animation alone.
I guess the same is true for Monks who notice that only a few of their bootshines actually crit.
There is probably a sound cue too, I don't know - is it even important? Why? You don't doubt that there is an actual benefit, do you - you know it's there.

I can see that it's confusing you because you aren't grasping my thoughts so let me try and clarify.

I believe that positionals are tedious more often than not and do not add more value than they detract and here's why:

• I don't like forced movement. I don't like the game telling me I have to do X to do maximum output. I want to be able to have the agency to decide where I want to stand and when based on my own critical thinking - how the *HECK* is that decision-making removed from you - you also have to stay in melee range, wether you actually stay there or do a mechanic more safely is up to you. Removing/changing positionals won't change a damn thing about that. You staying at the back or flank IS part of your own critical thinking, you'll just remove a variable if you remove/change positionals
• I hate button bloat and find True North to be an unnecessary button - your opinion - it's not, it's a way to optimize your gameplay, I don't want to have DPS cooldowns removed either
• Positionals are irrelevant in AOE situations - position itself however isn't and is the difference between doing 700 potency or 1200 potency - AoE also uses a completely different system because you are basically shooting lines and circles
• Positionals are irrelevant in some boss encounters - so? some encounters don't have a tough DPS check either, or require you to use every single utility you have available.
• You're at the mercy of a competent tank to successfully utilize them in some situations yeah - it's great how a group has to play together - I'm also at the mercy of a competetnt tank if I want to do AoE - should we change AoE too?
• The netcode is sloppy and makes positionals awkward. Note I am not saying hard, but awkward and unintuitive, for instance just hitting your positional and then instantly moving out of the bonus spot during the animation - netcode comes with a lot of issues, positionals are part of it, but the netcode plays a very minor role due to how bosses work in general
• Optimal use of positionals actually remove the movement aspect from them, because you just ride the hair trigger line and barely move between the bonuses - ya - when the boss is not doing anything - otherwise, no - that's also already the perfected version of using positionals. That's something most of the community still doesn't do and didn't do for years after ARR released. It's cool to see how gameplay evolved around it, isn't it? Reducing it's cost to a minimum for the same amount of effect

US Healthcare system works. No need to improve that I guess.

The way you'd like to change it is by removing having to pay for it. That can't work.
Positionals are positionals, you need to be at a certain position to do them.
If you don't want to stand there, don't do it.
If you don't want to pay for healthcare, don't expect to get the best healthcare.
You can't take the requirement of movement away from it. You will also not get an improvement to anything netcode-related.
You can only decide to pay, or not pay that price. But FFXIV Healthcare is nice enough to give you most of your benefits anyway , even if you don't want to pay (positionals). And that includes dental care and hearing aids (buffs and combos). They will however not pay extra to get you in a single bed room (potency bonus)

Perfect? That implies no improvements to be made.

Maybe not perfect, but pretty damn optimized already. Perfect - would add the single bed room by optimizing goverment spending (Netcode).
But FFXIV-State allows you to recieve that too once every two month for 15 days (True North). You just have to fill out that form. (Pressing that button)

[dope_danny]

So i'm watching a friend play through Stormbloods MSQ and a thought occurs: What happens to all of Emet's clones on the source?

[Dugna]

So i'm watching a friend play through Stormbloods MSQ and a thought occurs: What happens to all of Emet's clones on the source?

either stay lifeless or some other will use em

[Granyala]

Funny enough when ShB first launched one of the first things I noticed about my whm was that tetragrammaton essentially lost its identity and purpose

Tetragrammaton is off the GCD. It feels hugely different to the lilies and very much has a purpose. Despite not much difference healing wise, lilies feel definitely inferior to both, Lustrate and Tetra to me since I have to wait an eternity until I can cast again.
As for the bubble (Rapture?) I rarely use it for it's new buff. WHM has such an absurd output that I've never encountered a situation where +heal% was actually needed.
It's a nice second regen on the tank though, allowing more DPS uptime.

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So i'm watching a friend play through Stormbloods MSQ and a thought occurs: What happens to all of Emet's clones on the source?

Technically they are simply blank humans at this point. They may look like the first Emperor but their minds are empty. They're probably left asleep for now.

[Onikaroshi]

Tetragrammaton is off the GCD. It feels hugely different to the lilies and very much has a purpose. Despite not much difference healing wise, lilies feel definitely inferior to both, Lustrate and Tetra to me since I have to wait an eternity until I can cast again.
As for the bubble (Rapture?) I rarely use it for it's new buff. WHM has such an absurd output that I've never encountered a situation where +heal% was actually needed.
It's a nice second regen on the tank though, allowing more DPS uptime.

I was wondering the same thing when they said that about Tetra... like... being and oGCD means it's use case is completely different then Solace. Rapture is the aoe lily btw, the bubble is Asylum

[Sharby]

Being OGCD isnt enough, all that means is that its strong enough to warrant not being deleted, but not strong enough to feel like a unique ability. It needs a change because it suffers the same issues as solace but has double the CD. Its incredibly redundant.

[dope_danny]

Tetragrammaton is off the GCD. It feels hugely different to the lilies and very much has a purpose. Despite not much difference healing wise, lilies feel definitely inferior to both, Lustrate and Tetra to me since I have to wait an eternity until I can cast again.
As for the bubble (Rapture?) I rarely use it for it's new buff. WHM has such an absurd output that I've never encountered a situation where +heal% was actually needed.
It's a nice second regen on the tank though, allowing more DPS uptime.

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Technically they are simply blank humans at this point. They may look like the first Emperor but their minds are empty. They're probably left asleep for now.

Just imagine if they bring the 'character back' but its a clone with absolutely no connection, hell of an ironic twist on 'remember us' huh?

-actually i bet i know what they could do, if zenos did end up killing his dead then theres a faction of Emet loyalists with a factory of clones, if they want to put someone on the throne wouldn't that be a hell of a twist for the MC to see that face again?

[Granyala]

I was wondering the same thing when they said that about Tetra... like... being and oGCD means it's use case is completely different then Solace. Rapture is the aoe lily btw, the bubble is Asylum

Ah okay.
I'm terrible with spell names, I always memorize the colors of the symbols and what they do.

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Being OGCD isnt enough, all that means is that its strong enough to warrant not being deleted, but not strong enough to feel like a unique ability. It needs a change because it suffers the same issues as solace but has double the CD. Its incredibly redundant.

Speak for yourself, in WHMs kit Tetra feels plenty unique due to the ability to weave it in.
I cannot use the lilies as an emergency button because I always have to wait to use them and wait after using them. Not with Tetra.
When you play savage you will notice these differences.

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wouldn't that be a hell of a twist for the MC to see that face again?

I'm pretty sure that the MC or at least the scions know that Emets body is a clone of the first emperor. Others popping up wouldn't come as a surprise.

[Katchii]

Then, maybe shut up or something, I don't know?
I'm not interested in discussion something with someone who dislikes things for no apparent reason other than "I dislike it - it's not my thing" either.

As they are designed currently, they are fine for both individuals who want to optimize DPS and fine for those who just don't want to bother with them - either strategy is valid. If you add importance to them - the "no positonal faction" can't justify it them not having much of an impact anymore.
If you remove them, the "pro positional faction" lose something they could've done to optimize their gameplay.

Simple. No need to change a working system.

Sure, mechanically you could play without ever using positionals, but your DPS would suffer greatly as a result. But deliberately choosing to not hit the positionals is not really a viable strategy right now.

SE could add other mechanics to optimize game play besides positionals, like more procs to manage or a mechanic similar to Red Mage/ old Machinist where certain abilities are buffed after reaching a certain resource threshold, managing that resource more actively, etc.... The positionals themselves don't affect game play, if as you say either strategy is viable, moving around the enemy just becomes tedious at that point. Just because something is tedious and therefore can be used to separate those who can/will manage that tediousness effectively and those who can't/won't, doesn't mean it's a "good" mechanic.

Just because something works, doesn't mean it can't be improved, fixed, or even SHOULD work. Digging a trench with a spoon works, doesn't mean you can't get better tools to do it faster or better.

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?? I don't care about whether I had my average amounts of crits and direct hits. If I realized that I can optimize something to get us closer to the goal, I will do it - If I realized I didn't do as many positionals as I would have liked, I try to improve on that and it's already far more likely that we kill the boss if I do it correctly the next time. Because, as I mentioned
I don't need a DPS tool to realize how bad or good I did in that regard. why does that even matter? The tooltip already tells me how more more % damage I do if I uphold positionals compared to when I do not. So for the love of god, what is that nonsense with the third party tool all about?
When I do 140 potency instead of 100, I know I'm doing 40% more damage with that attack - that is all I need to know. Wether it'll end up being the 1%, 2%, 3% of the damage we need in the end doesn't matter, I know for a fact already how much the difference is between doing the positional and not. It's not like the computer generates a random number between 1-100 potency and gives you a wague description of "you are more likely to roll higher numbers if you fulfil the positional requirement"

I think the question is more, how do you know for sure whether you hit the positional or not in the middle of battle if your rotation and game play aren't changing as a result, you just get smaller numbers which can be very difficult if not impossible to see in the heat of battle with all the animations and whatnot going on.

If your game play isn't changing as a result of hitting or missing them, are they really that interesting?

I'd argue no, you obviously wouldn't. Difference of opinion.

The way you'd like to change it is by removing having to pay for it. That can't work.
Positionals are positionals, you need to be at a certain position to do them.

But as you've stated many times already, hitting or missing the positional doesn't change your game play in any way. It changes a number that most people don't even see or notice, or if they do, it's just lost in the sea of other numbers and effects flying around. Even if you do notice the number, how do you know that the number you're seeing isn't just variance cause by a buff or something and not related to your positional?

If you don't want to stand there, don't do it.
If you don't want to pay for healthcare, don't expect to get the best healthcare.

What about the people paying for it who aren't getting proper care? Don't want to derail the thread, but it's MUCH deeper than what you're implying here. Which is precisely what Wreck is alluding to.

You can't take the requirement of movement away from it. You will also not get an improvement to anything netcode-related.

Why not? Why "can't" you take the movement away from it? What game play addition do positionals actually provide that you wouldn't already be doing?

You can only decide to pay, or not pay that price. But FFXIV Healthcare is nice enough to give you most of your benefits anyway , even if you don't want to pay (positionals). And that includes dental care and hearing aids (buffs and combos). They will however not pay extra to get you in a single bed room (potency bonus)

More like, you have jump through a ton tedious hoops, in addition to following the standard process for no real change in your experience. The best part is, there's no real way to know if you actually jumped through all the hoops correctly, because there's no way to measure that within your system...you have to go outside and check with a third party that can verify that for you.

Maybe not perfect, but pretty damn optimized already. Perfect - would add the single bed room by optimizing goverment spending (Netcode).
But FFXIV-State allows you to recieve that too once every two month for 15 days (True North). You just have to fill out that form. (Pressing that button)

So, to make up for a bad experience they compensate you with a better experience that other customers get all the time, and you have to do extra work to get it?