What would you pay to unlock flying?

[kaminaris]

-snip-

Blizzard said it themselves, it way more work to design a terrain that takes into consideration flying.
Plus some people bitched about flying killed immersion.

So they just release expansion as is, and then fix terrain later. I really doubt there is some sort of hidden issues. Lets be honest, no-flying doesn't slow players down. Doesn't make them consume content slower. It just increases session play time and discourages playing who like flying.

Like you had in other thread, people just now started to do content that they previously didn't touch because there was no flying.

[Aehl]

what will they say when everyone fly around

"When I level up I will be able to fly too"

- - - Updated - - -

what will they say when everyone fly around

What will they say when others have mounts they dont have
When others have gear they dont have
When others have pets they dont have
When others have achievements they dont have............

....see how asinine this sounds?

- - - Updated - - -

FF 14 has flight and no one has these "issues", no one whines and bitches on how it "ruins immersion"

(It doesnt)

The only ones who whine are the ones on who "wurld pee vee pee" matters. Mate, sure, go ahead, remove flight. FF 14 would LOVE more players.

- - - Updated - - -

No matter how many times you spew the BS "Blizzard Hater" narrative, you are always WRONG. None of this is true at all.

It is? The date and time of that post on the matter was specific and taken from the Polygon website

They absolutely were divided on the issue and then made an impulsive decision of no flying just to make a decision and be done with because they delayed the decision too long

And man did they pay the price for their stupidity.

. They tehn reconsidered when they got the huge backlash and came up with pathfinder to satisfy the anti-flying crowd which was led by Alex Afrasiabi. The rest of your post is complete conspiracy theory BS that is not based in reality and spewed by petulant and childish players salty that Blizzard didn't completely cave to their demands.

It is?

There are threads HERE ON MMOC about the GMs opening a chat window when people went to cancel.

But here, sure, Im lying

No, Im not

https://us.battle.net/forums/en/wow/topic/17606000879

and here

May 23, 2015
97
If I was cancelling now they're doing the GM chat and a GM asked for the reason, I'd tell him go check the forums. The information is there and has been said many times. If they had bothered to listen in the first place, they would know the answer.

If the GM continued to press for more information, I'd just repeat

"Read your forums for a change."

So please, if you cancel and have a chat with a GM don't explain your reasons. Just tell them where the information can already be found.

05/23/2015 11:03 AMPosted by Emellea
Haha, I just tried it, and a window does pop up on the bottom right corner of your screen when you cancel, although nothing happens if you don't click on the 'chat' button in the window. That's funny! I wonder when they started this?

They started it back in April. People who were cancelling subs and switching to game time tokens came into the forums upset because they were getting the pop up and the GMs were trying to tell them not to cancel the subs, that they could do both and using a token would just push the date of their next auto-renewal.

That didn't go over well when cancellations in the past didn't require jumping through hoops.

and here

https://us.forums.blizzard.com/en/wo...ncelled/156370

I was thinking about this the other day – and it makes it feel like I (along with many others) was finally listened to. We were given Classic.

When I cancelled back in WoD, I received a popup on the website informing me that the GM wanted to talk to me. A GM then proceeded to ask me why I was cancelling. I was happy to oblige. lol.

I felt like it was quite telling. A turning point when Blizzard started to do some soul searching and scrambled for ideas about how to staunch the flow of subs. Shame it took a couple of more awful expansions to get into gear.

Rray, either you are totally blind or in denial, I dont know which and I dont care anymore.

[Wolfrick]

Thank you.

--- 1 ---
This is something that's missing from all too many of the threads on this topic. People just spout off "don't use flying if you don't like it!" or "Unsube if you think no-flying sucks!". And that doesn't really solve anything. A real discussion has to happen before understanding(both from players and from Blizzard) of the flaws with the current system can show up.

--- 2 ---
I would have to say that this is more of a flaw of Blizzard's approach to mishandling flight. Both because of the raw mechanics of flying, the speed disparity, and the unlock process. More or less every other complaint and argument you make in this thread stems from that. Note that I'm not saying your points are invalid! I think they have merit! I just think that there's a lot more to this discussion than blaming flight for everything wrong with the open world.

Your point about "the world looking alien as players fly around them while they're on the ground" I could counter by saying it could just as easily be something for a player to look forward to as a goal, the same way in which a player might see someone with super-powerful gear and look forward to getting it themselves.

But the other problem is with both the disparity of raw speed and power between ground mounts and flying mounts. I've often suggested that ground and air mounts should, at the very least, move at the same absolute speed(either by bringing ground mounts up, or flying mounts down), and that ground mounts should be given some sort of advantage to match that which is gained by being able to fly. Maybe ground mounts allow you to stay mounted in combat, or like druids where you can stay mounted while gathering, or could potentially fight along side you as a bodyguard when you dismount.

The problem you describe is one of context. Blizzard simply throws flying into the game in one of the worst ways possible. They don't design the open world to take flight into account. They don't update the mechanics of flying to make sense. The implementation and interactions between flight and no-flying is poor(even just disabling it in War Mode would go a long way to solving this).

--- 3 ---
The problem with this point of view is that it's based on the assumption that everyone wants the same thing. And also that immersion and exploration and community interaction can only be done from the ground. Hopefully I can explain to you why that's not always the case. I tied points 2 and 4 together because I think they're talking about the same thing.

The open world that you say people want to immerse themselves in and explore isn't really there. At least not in the same way that Vanilla was. I think the release of Classic will make the difference between the current open world design and the original abundantly clear. In the original game(and later on into TBC and WotLK) the game WAS being designed as a vast open world where people could explore and discover and immerse themselves in a fantasy world. Quests and enemies and lore were spread around based on what made sense in that context.

However, in the current game this isn't the case. Quests and exploration points are built around spreadsheet metrics and maximizing MAUs and playtime. The soul of the game, that you seem to so lovingly describe, is missing from it. Regardless of whether or not flying is available in the game, THAT is the reason why people would get so tired of the open world. If you look at TBC and WotLK, the game was still deeply steeped in lore and immersion. The game was at the height of its popularity and enjoyment, and both of those expansions had flying. People still cared about exploring. People still cared about feeling like they were part of a fantasy world.

That's something that's sorely missing from the current version of the game, and I really don't think that flying is the root cause of it. I think it's much more to do with Blizzard focusing on raiding and M+ and e-sports to the exclusion of all else. If Blizzard took the same amount of time, and invested the effort and creativity into the open world that they did with other aspects of the game, I think that flying would be a non-factor. As it stands, however, the open world is nothing more than a hollow leveling speedbump and an empty ratmaze of world quests.

I think you should carefully consider what would do more good for the game: Blizzard rediscovering a way to make the open world deep and meaningful, or just cutting out flight and sticking with the same soulless WQ formula.

--- 4 ---
Is that a result of players wanting to go as fast as possible, or is it because Blizzard has built the open world to have almost nothing of value? What's killing the game isn't players having a desire to get places. It's that open world is severely lacking anything of interest for players to invest in. Flying or not, if that doesn't change, the result you describe will still happen.


--- 5 ---
Do you know why they didn't just fly the Eagles? Because the Eye of Sauron would have seen them, and the Nazgul would have attacked them with their own flying mounts. Not only that, but the one-ring likely would have corrupted them, posing a risk the Fellowship couldn't take. The great Eagles were also very proud, and even told Gandalf(a fucking demi-god) that he would not be borne to the ends of the earth. In some cases, the Eagles were also on guard against the goblins and orcs from the Misty Mountains, or were described as fearing the bows of the men living in Mirkwood.

What this means in the context of a game is that there's a very convincing lore reason for players to not immediately gain the power of flying, and even when you do get it, it makes sense how and where you can use it. This is something that's utterly and completely lacking from WoW. Grinding reputations that have nothing to do with flight. No mention what-so-ever of why we can't fly for 8 months, or for why suddenly we fly anywhere we want afterwords. The open world having no defenses, challenges, or real barriers for flying players.

Again, I want you to carefully consider that the reason flying is troublesome in WoW is not because of flying itself. It's because Blizzard taking such a halfassed, formulaic, low investment approach to the open world. Literally every area and quest in WoW is just a swarm of dazing mobs that just sort of stand about waiting for players to trap and harass. That's it. THAT is the reason why the game feels so empty, and why flying feels so out of place.

If you really want more of the feeling of being in an epic world where you can immerse yourself and explore, you should be asking Blizzard for a more deep and intricate world. You should ask for more things to be added to the world, NOT for more and more to be ruthlessly cut out of it.

Special Questiong (the answers will be under it)

Just want to ask you something, if blizzard Reworked the Ground mount system... makeing each mount or each Type of mount (example Horse/Wolfs/hyppos/ecc...) have some kind of talent tree that we players could pick and choose from... something like (Talent 1 - Push away NPCs, Talent 2 - have small speed push, Talent 3 - dubbel jump.. eccc), would you agree on that flying could be removed?



--- Answers ---

--- 1 ---
I agree 100%, the forums should be a place where people take their time to share ideas and different oppinions even if they are at 2 extreem posistions (as you and I) ^^

--- 2 ---
Your point is quite valid and I like how you view the ideas around flight and its problems, speed is one of the major things that makes flying mounts so alien... it gives them such Power boosts in contrast to ground mounts (just as the water strider gave player close to no choice but to use it since it was so... lets say powerful put against other mounts). so this could be a great idea, also the idea that to get flying should be behind something new and fresh that has to do with flying... makeing it even a lore reason why we could not have flying until now.

So in the end the very Crude nature of flying and its outdated system... makes it alien to people... on that I agree, and its not flying it self that is the issue.

--- 3 ---
What you are saying here is true, Blizzard from Cataclysm and forward... did it very safe... always trying to give us what we want but in the most safe kind of a way... that it self kinda Killed of the Danger and Exploration of the world. (since there is a reason why Classic in 2019 is getting so much support and Hype, back then Developers took huge risks and tried out alot of new thing).

When it comes to your point, I agree with you 100% that its the world it self not flying that is the issue, to me sincethe revamp of Cataclysm it felt like Blizzard abandon the idea of a World and focused more on "What is next"... then Rush... then "what is next".... So I see your point and its a very valid one!

--- 4 ---
Again as I explained in the other points, yeah, at its core its the World it self that is kinda empty.

--- 5 ---
Yeah, I knew about all that, I also had and understood that it would be very hard to fly in to mordor like that... the very reason that made it possible was the Sneaky nature of the Hobbits and that Sauron Never even tought about that some one would destroy the ring... & in the movies the Eagles are used way to often and always at the end of the movies...

My point was that if you Insert something so Ultra powerful (as flying) to any setting... it kinda removes very other unpowered thing from the picture...

Hmmm, let me explain my self better, if you Insert 1 super conveniant/powerful idea or concept... it removes lets say the other 5 options... so ok, the 1 thing is awesome and super useful but its removes the Choice from most of the players.

PS: if you ask me, I always prefer Ground mounts... but 90% of people will use Flying mounts since like the Waterstrider... it feel "like stupid" to not use it (its like choosing to walk with your hands when you have Legs)... if you understand me.

PSS: nice talk, great points and agruments

PSSS: last point I promise ... Gonna let you in on a secret, seeing how they not even think about Updateing Flying and how they wanted to remove it in WOD... then came down to a stand still with giving it out half into each expansion... I think they are trying to show people that having only ground mounts is ok... and with all of the tools we have as transport we can live in a world with out flying.
Something like they did with the waterstrider problem "people freaked out when blizzard removed the waterwalking... then they introduced mount Equiptment.
Something I really like about Ion and this new Development team is that they see something hurting the game and they figuer out a way to give everyone something good... in a way that removes the very thing that was on of the thing that are destroying the world.

[SirCowdog]

Blizzard said it themselves, it way more work to design a terrain that takes into consideration flying.
Plus some people bitched about flying killed immersion.

So they just release expansion as is, and then fix terrain later. I really doubt there is some sort of hidden issues. Lets be honest, no-flying doesn't slow players down. Doesn't make them consume content slower. It just increases session play time and discourages playing who like flying.

Like you had in other thread, people just now started to do content that they previously didn't touch because there was no flying.

And you honestly believe that? That a multi-billion dollar company just decided "nyeh, this is too hard" and listened to a handful of buttsore gankers because their target got away?

And what do you think increased session play time adds up to? It means that each tiny piece of content takes longer. Minutes and seconds add up to increase the total amount of time it takes to get things done. Add that to the GCD change. Time to kill, increased leveling times, removal of portals, etc etc etc.

That you don't think Blizzard closely records, calculates, watches, and plans all of this down to the tiniest degree....then I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong.

[Detritivores]

I shockingly haven't seen this after skimming a few pages, but I would pay about $15/month.

[kaminaris]

And you honestly believe that? That a multi-billion dollar company just decided "nyeh, this is too hard" and listened to a handful of buttsore gankers because their target got away?

And what do you think increased session play time adds up to? It means that each tiny piece of content takes longer. Minutes and seconds add up to increase the total amount of time it takes to get things done. Add that to the GCD change. Time to kill, increased leveling times, removal of portals, etc etc etc.

That you don't think Blizzard closely records, calculates, watches, and plans all of this down to the tiniest degree....then I don't know what to tell you other than you're wrong.

You don't really know how much work is it to make terrain accessible. You see, wow engine needs to have 2 maps, one for terrain and one for "boundary". They had a lot of pain removing all the invisible walls in WoW before. Now they just don't add them anymore but that doesn't mean it's just like flip the switch and done.

I remember falling thru floor when I was playing BfA beta.

And yeah, money wise, it doesn't make any sense as there is a portion of playerbase that just doesn't play without flying. Increasing session time does not yield them more money. While it may have negative effect on players.

You say multi-bilion company but half of the game is half assed

[Aehl]

And yet in FF 14

We can fly in close to a week after doing the MSQ..and the world hasnt been "destroyed". This sounds like a YOU problem.

Funny isnt it, how other MMOs that have flight arent having the issues you "claim" they cause. Mate, Ill be clear. Blizzard game designers seem to be having a LOT of problems no one else has...so id say the issue is of their own making...and their own collective FAILURES.

- - - Updated - - -

You say multi-bilion company but half of the game is half assed

Half? More like 9 / 10ths.

[FuxieDK]

Mists was 1,000g before rep and required max level. I feel like that's reasonable. The WoD/Legion/BFA style has gotten tedious and pointless.

MoP was delayed until 90. In Cata, we got flying immediately.

[SirCowdog]

You don't really know how much work is it to make terrain accessible.

I don't need to know the exact value. All I need to know is that they did it from TBC through MoP to know that it's completely viable and possible for Blizzard to do it. It should be even MORE easy for them to do today, with better technology.

That's why I don't believe the horse shit excuse of "it presents too many challenges for open world design".


However, the other thing I do know is that you're partially correct. It does take more work relative to a more simplified design formula of not EVER including flight in the open world design. Removing flight from the formula allows them to save time and money during the development process. Which leads to your next point:

And yeah, money wise, it doesn't make any sense as there is a portion of playerbase that just doesn't play without flying. Increasing session time does not yield them more money. While it may have negative effect on players.

It makes perfect sense if you're able to monetize the remaining players while simultaneously cutting development costs and increasing playtime. Cut down the expenses while increasing the monetization of the remaining players through increased playtime, store mounts, and other "Services". Implement the wow token which gains them $20 a month instead of $15. Increase the box cost of each expansion.

The more and more I talk to you, the more I think you're not really considering all the potential factors. You just don't want to believe, for whatever reason, that flying wasn't removed/restricted for purely business reasoning, and either aren't able to change your mind based on new information, or aren't willing to admit your view might be wrong.

[kaminaris]

I don't need to know the exact value. All I need to know is that they did it from TBC through MoP to know that it's completely viable and possible for Blizzard to do it. It should be even MORE easy for them to do today, with better technology.

That's why I don't believe the horse shit excuse of "it presents too many challenges for open world design".


However, the other thing I do know is that you're partially correct. It does take more work relative to a more simplified design formula of not EVER including flight in the open world design. Removing flight from the formula allows them to save time and money during the development process. Which leads to your next point:

Oh and this is where you are wrong because TBC was straight up designed for flying as well as all expansion to MoP. The thing is. You don't know when developers started preparing terrain for flying.

It makes perfect sense if you're able to monetize the remaining players while simultaneously cutting development costs and increasing playtime. Cut down the expenses while increasing the monetization of the remaining players through increased playtime, store mounts, and other "Services". Implement the wow token which gains them $20 a month instead of $15. Increase the box cost of each expansion.

The more and more I talk to you, the more I think you're not really considering all the potential factors. You just don't want to believe, for whatever reason, that flying wasn't removed/restricted for purely business reasoning, and either aren't able to change your mind based on new information, or aren't willing to admit your view might be wrong.

No for god sake NO! For 10th time session play time does not give them more money! Long commitment does, like long ass achievement ex. Mecha-done. Low droprate on rares, daily lockout, rep-locked quests, hard dungeons, long gearing path. This is what could give them money.

People are setting goals themselves in this game. Blizzard can only stretch that by time-gating and low-drops. If they go too far with this, people start loosing interest - ex poundfist.

No-flying especially locked for 10 months does the exact opposite. Some players just wait until 8.2 hits and unsubscribe before or do other content. While people who complain about flying usually don't unsubsribe just because flying was introduced. Die-hard no-flying fans already left the game since flying was enabled from start on few previous expansions.

[gandrew00]

Better solution if we were to go the "pay for flying" route, make it cost around the same amount of gold as tokens do on average. Then people can buy it with gold, or if they want, buy a token to afford it.

I would never want it to cost direct money. Gold sure, just like it used to. To be honest it would be another good gold sink as practically every player would want to pay it.

I agree with you on this

[Nalam the Venom]

Absolutely Not

The industry doesn't need more way to nickle and dime people.

But buying is a choice, if you don't want to be Nickle and dimed, then don't pay? and wait for the free option.

[SirCowdog]

Oh and this is where you are wrong because TBC was straight up designed for flying as well as all expansion to MoP. The thing is. You don't know when developers started preparing terrain for flying.

That doesn't even make any sense.

No for god sake NO! For 10th time session play time does not give them more money! Long commitment does, like long ass achievement ex. Mecha-done. Low droprate on rares, daily lockout, rep-locked quests, hard dungeons, long gearing path. This is what could give them money..

Take yourself a glass. Put it on your desk next to your computer. Every time you sit down at your computer, no matter for how long, put one drop of water in it, then tell me that it never fills up.

Trying to sit here and tell me that session play time doesn't matter just proves you have no idea what you're talking about. You're just pissed that someone disagrees with you, and can't admit your point of view is deeply flawed.

[ItsWhimsy]

What would you pay to unlock flying?

I already paid for the expansion (60 U.S.D.) and the monthly subscription (60 U.S.D. every six months). After The Burning Crusade, flying is expected to be included in the game and not arbitrarily removed for the first year or so just for players to "earn" it back. I paid for the flying content to be added back when it was first introduced, why would I have to pay for it again???

[kaminaris]

That doesn't even make any sense.




Take yourself a glass. Put it on your desk next to your computer. Every time you sit down at your computer, no matter for how long, put one drop of water in it, then tell me that it never fills up.

Trying to sit here and tell me that session play time doesn't matter just proves you have no idea what you're talking about. You're just pissed that someone disagrees with you, and can't admit your point of view is deeply flawed.

Nah, you simply don't know how business works. So time for a lesson: Business is about building long lasting relationships with clients. It's not just quick cash and grab.

You metaphor is closer to building up dissatisfaction about little things in game that are frustrating. So lets call it a glass of frustration. The moment glass overflows is the moment player stop playing game.

Ultimately game has to be fun in order for people to keep playing. That is why blizzard introduces little conveniences such as flyghtmaster whistle. Read the other thread to see why how enjoyment influences people willingness to to do content: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...-your-playtime
I know it is pretty small statistic group but I pretty much expected it. See two highest bars?

Having flying encourages me to do content I previously skipped
I play the same amount of time, just getting more things to do

So going by your logic, blizzard want players to avoid content until it will be convenient enough. No, they want us to stay subbed by for longer by releasing smaller content patches faster while giving enjoyable experience to players. Timegating does also do the trick until it becomes too obvious - like gating flying for 10 months which probably backfired.

And no, you actually said that because you argument assumes blizzard is novice company that doesn't know how business works.

[Nuggsy]

But buying is a choice, if you don't want to be Nickle and dimed, then don't pay? and wait for the free option.

Absolutely not.

It shouldn't be in the game whatsoever. End of story. It's an absolutely ridiculous idea and the fact that someone is advocating for microtransactions in a game that people spend $180 a year on + $70 expansions every 2 years only goes to show that the AAA industry will never be fixed of it's corruption and disgusting behavior as a whole people no matter what people will happily throw money at them.

Nope.

[Teucer]

Sure. I'd drop 100k gold on it. In fact, it should be available both ways - for the pathfinder stuff OR a token's worth of gold.

100% agree with this, and just time gate the flying unlock with gold. If you really want it, do the achievement, but if you wait a month you can get it with gold.

Blizz is all about catchup mechanics, the achievement route is a huge time sink if you haven't been actively subbed.

[Mardux]

We're 24 pages in guys and gals. You should have learned by now that if you don't agree that the anti-choice, anti-flying crowd's *opinion* is fact, you're wrong.

Just move on. They aren't interested in actual discussion when they just plug their ears and yell "nope" and "you're wrong" in unnecessarily bolded letters.

[SirCowdog]

But buying is a choice, if you don't want to be Nickle and dimed, then don't pay? and wait for the free option.

The problem is that the company can't be trusted or relied upon to keep the non-paid version of the unlocl reasonable or fair.

If you a situation like Pathfinder, for example, where you could pay to skip the process, there would be VERY heavy incentive for Blizzard to increase the time and tedious nature of the grind in order to promote the purchase.

This is exactly what we've seen over the years with the leveling process and character boosts. Leveling time is greater than it's been since WotLK. And every time someone figures a way to speed things up or skip part of leveling, it gets patched or fixed quickly.

The exact same thing would happen with any part of the game that has an option to pay in order to skip. This and lootboxes are the basis for almost every predatory mobile game in existence, and something no player of wow who's interested in the health of the game should want to see more of.

[S2H]

Uh, no? Current pathfinder system gated for 10 months is much much much more inconvenient, than just farming that 100k or buying it with real money.

You also have no idea how to make games, so let me enlighten you. If they would introduce more inconveniences gated behind gold/money, people will start leaving game which ends up loosing them a lot more money.

Which is exactly what happened. They had to counteract the loss of players by creating even moreartificial inconvenience to spend your way out of

Main examples:

Allied races are power creep to many classes. Why level new allied races when you can level them with real money.
Reputation mounts cost a shit load of gold. This gold takes a shit load of time or can be bought with real money.
6 month time traps to bait players with mounts that cannot be obtained by playing the game but only real money.