Blizzard refuses to retcon the Shen'dralar

[mickybrighteyes]

And whiles classic did have a high nature visual, which fit the era it was set in, it is not the full picture of all there is to the night elves, the lore extensively shows and provides that. but people, especially males, go by what they see, rather than diligently properly find out the details - especially for a race blizzard said was enigmatic.

Well the lore of the night elves from some short time after 15k year before invasion till sometime about 30 years post first invasion was outright banning of arcane practitioners with a focus on female martial forces and overly sleepy male druids.

The whole 'arcane practitioner' angles were sort of kicked out around a millenia and a half prior to the events of WC1.

But I mean, sure... big arcane army... that literally sprang out of nowhere at year 28... literally sprang out of nowhere. Like the horde's navy.

[Feanoro]

DHs have been a bit quiet, but they have been around. They've been showing up low key, until Legion where we get them brought out, illidan is a major part of the war of the ancients, as present as Malfurion in a itme when the night elves had no druid or demon hunter class, only the mage and priest/warrior/hunter. For people to think that night elves and mages are not a thing because one group banned arcane practice really aren't looking that picture properly. It's been about the arcane for this group since the beginning, and they've had that WEll of eternity since their birth. Sure the Darnassians had a 10k year braek, but only in practicing the magic, not being suffused by it, and enriched by it. And then the other night elves, like those in Suramar and Eldre'thalas, Moonguard stronghold, well they never stopped using it at all either.

As I explained above, if you look hard enough, you see a lot of all the parts of the night elves. The main bits are the arcane, Elune, nature, demon hunting and hunting

Just to make sure, you know I was defending the same position as you? I added that Blizzard is poor at really showing it well in WoW.

[Zulkhan]

You can't ask an author to make a retcon, retcons are off-universe changes the author applies for convenience or perceived necessity. You acknowledge and judge a retcon, you don't fucking demand the author to modify the story to your liking.

[Mace]

Well the lore of the night elves from some short time after 15k year before invasion till sometime about 30 years post first invasion was outright banning of arcane practitioners with a focus on female martial forces and overly sleepy male druids.

The whole 'arcane practitioner' angles were sort of kicked out around a millenia and a half prior to the events of WC1.

But I mean, sure... big arcane army... that literally sprang out of nowhere at year 28... literally sprang out of nowhere. Like the horde's navy.

you mean 10k years? The arcane was developed in the 5k years before the sundering. The reckless/addiction problem was the highlight of the invasion period, which was only the last few centuries of the era - when they had a big head.

Anyway, the pre-sundering era was highly defining period for their race, and the entire long vigil was their effort to contain a problem they created, so it is entirely connected to that era. It's part of a story that shows different parts.

However just bear in mind that more night elf lore has come forth since WC3, the night elf lore is 3 novel book on the War of the ancients at the end of the pre-sundering era, in addition to several novels - Stormrage, Wolfheart, Illidan - which is where the bulk of the arcane, demon hunter and Elune priesthood lore is. In-game for WC3, most sections of classic and the WotLk/TBC places were night elves turn up largely showed either ranger sentinels or druids, from patch 1.1 onwards you get to meet surviving arcane communities, many more demon hunters, and the story is expanded.

Remember blizzard has progressively been showing advancements and progress being made in some races. In cata the Darnassians and Shen'dralar form an alliance, by WoD you see fully trained night elven magi operating alliance portals and some other magical deeds. And this grows in portrayal ass they show more in Legion, and then in the BFA assaults - which goes to show that things are developing even if they are not always reflected.

Sometimes when an army pops out of nowhere, it's not because it has just appeared and is lazy writing, more like they don't updated the previous zones with the state of affairs to reflect some of the growth or activities you see.

We never knew how big the horde navy was, it wasn't used that much in anything like the full navy affair we see in this expac. But they had to have been building ships - If the horde, much smaller in WC2 could so quickly churn out ships back then, whata bout now with more technology, the arcane magic of the elves via the Forsaken and blood elves and all their navy expertise. And though some conflicts narrated in the books, like Jaina's revenge for Theramore that Thrall stops by reasoning with her (this is prior to the purge of dalaran) or some of the fleet in Zoram Strand Ashenvale, doesn't really account for much.

Blizzard keeps things very vague precisely so they can pull numbers out of nowhere when the story needs it.. and because of that we can fill in the gaps and start thinking of areas,, and places those numbers could feasibly have come from even if we are never told.

- - - Updated - - -

You can't ask an author to make a retcon, retcons are off-universe changes the author applies for convenience or perceived necessity. You acknowledge and judge a retcon, you don't fucking demand the author to modify the story to your liking.

Indeed. Would stop some from tying or only seeing their own version of what the writers have given.

- - - Updated - - -

Just to make sure, you know I was defending the same position as you? I added that Blizzard is poor at really showing it well in WoW.

Oh yes, I did know, I meant to simply replay that yes, DHs had suddenly gone quiet, reflecting Blizzards typical spotlight musical chairs for groups and races they play, rather than just do race campaigns and have every group always get some new lore every patch with their race campaign.

I did digress a little bit with the rest of that paragraph.

[Sangris]

I am actually grateful to Blizzard for NOT retconning something for a change.

[mickybrighteyes]

you mean 10k years? The arcane was developed in the 5k years before the sundering. The reckless/addiction problem was the highlight of the invasion period, which was only the last few centuries of the era - when they had a big head.

and sometime well over 5k years before the onset of the main defining storyline... the arcanists were banished out of the keldorei lands to turn into what we later came to understand as high elves and train the human nations in the ways of the arcane

The keldorei that were left were the post vigil amazons and druids that clearly shunned the arcane.

So regardless of how prestigious or developed the Night Elf Empire of old was... they banished, exiled, and shunned that aspect of society so totally that the beings that still adhered to it developed into an entirely new biological species.

The few pockets of that subset group that managed to persist in their respective plotholes is despite that fact....

Now 30 years after the initial invasion and rough decade later, YEAH some new mages would likely rise up in the ranks. I mean hell, draenei managed to fashion an interstellar war ship in a decade and a bridge was built in redridge in that amount of time so i guess anything is possible. But really trying to site that night elves had extensive history... while barely touching the fact that they themselves did a scorched earth policy removing such facets of their society (as a point from OTHER species origination events...) is getting pretty sadand why Rozz has to come in periodically and remind us about a specific forum rule.

[Feanoro]

they banished, exiled, and shunned that aspect of society so totally that the beings that still adhered to it developed into an entirely new biological species.

Er what? That doesn't follow, you're putting the responsibility for the BElves' mutation (or whatever you'd like to call it) on the NElves for banishing them? It was them completely indulging their magic addiction right up until they became playable.

[Super Dickmann]

I fail to understand why it's such a bad thing to have these threads, when we've had multiple threads of Baine hate, Anduin hate, Saurfang is a puppet, etc. At least these threads start out positive with someone trying to write about part of the lore they enjoy.

What makes these threads more memetic is both the extreme effort put into the posts by the two OPs and the fact that it's a very narrow field. People shitting on Baine, Anduin, Sylvanas, Saurfang, etc. are all universal topics about characters who have a huge impact on the present story. Arcane night elves are a niche of a niche and a mistake besides.

I know this isn't addressed to me, but commenting. The gist is that Blizzard wrote all those aspects but only really bothers with the tree hugging hippy WoW portrayal. For example, DHs got a moment in the sun as an expansion gimmick, then nothing. Business as usual, bending over for the Horde.

To answer you and @Mace by extension, you are right that the night elves do have a lot more history and elements to them that often get ignored in favor of tree-hugging and being victims. That having been said, the arcane is an element they should not have. Wolfheart was a mistake and so were the Shen'dralar. A race is defined as much by what it can't and doesn't do as by what it does do and the night elves' gender roles, militancy, relationship with nature and rejection of arcane and 'civilization' are all key there.

Vanilla did away with the gender roles, their nocturnal nature (we like being around by day because the humans are ), their militancy, by making them militarily weak peaceniks and their relationship with nature with all their ancients and allies ditching them. All that was left was the foundational breach of their society, between those who rejected the arcane as being the way to organize the land around them and the society they built and those that accepted it. They had the entire world broken due to decadence and arcane use, the stigma made sense and so too did it make sense that the high elves would bail and make their own society on the lines of the previous empire. Hence, you had a dichotomy wherein both races represented aspects of the original empire and were also opposed thematically, having elements and focuses that the other doesn't. If you allow arcane into the night elves, then the high elves become perfunctory and the conflict between the races becomes inane, as does the original gap between the peoples. Both races suffer - the night elves by absorbing more aspects that dilute their central focus in favor of being a cosmopolitan entity capable of all things and the high elves by showing that the reason they left could be easily solved when an incident much less damaging to the kaldorei than the Legion Invasion, be it the first or second happened. Less is sometimes more.

@Mace and @ravenmoon both draw the distinction between night elf arcane use and high elf/old highborne arcane use as being excess. This is not a sufficient line to differentiate the two. What is excessive and what isn't? And if arcane is accepted either way, what separates high elves from night elves? Skin colour and aesthetic, at best. This is unsurprising, because the same posters also support a union of all elves.

[Hellspawn]

I'm glad they don't retcon it, rather I'm happy to see that they are mentioned I hope they will add more lore about them. A bigger role for mages in the night elf society would be interesting, it would have a very different from other elf races. If the Shen'dralar would help making Eldre'Thalas the new home for night elfs we would have an interesting redemption ark for them. Rejecting Arcane at this point seems stupid to me anyways with the burning legion gone.

The differentiation is still clear:
- Elune as their goddess
- Strong bound to nature
- Still watch critical at mages
- No nobility

Shen'dralar bring in something thats very important in fantasy, a mystical Element, like they know stuff they don't talk about. Also Eldre'thalas in comparison in Darnassus could be source of mystical elements.. knowledge hidden somewhere in the city, secrets forgotten even by even the Shen'dralar that are still alive. Elune has this element too (and I hope they don't ever take that away)

[ravenmoon]

What makes these threads more memetic is both the extreme effort put into the posts by the two OPs and the fact that it's a very narrow field. People shitting on Baine, Anduin, Sylvanas, Saurfang, etc. are all universal topics about characters who have a huge impact on the present story. Arcane night elves are a niche of a niche and a mistake besides.



To answer you and @Mace by extension, you are right that the night elves do have a lot more history and elements to them that often get ignored in favor of tree-hugging and being victims. That having been said, the arcane is an element they should not have. Wolfheart was a mistake and so were the Shen'dralar. A race is defined as much by what it can't and doesn't do as by what it does do and the night elves' gender roles, militancy, relationship with nature and rejection of arcane and 'civilization' are all key there.

Vanilla did away with the gender roles, their nocturnal nature (we like being around by day because the humans are ), their militancy, by making them militarily weak peaceniks and their relationship with nature with all their ancients and allies ditching them. All that was left was the foundational breach of their society, between those who rejected the arcane as being the way to organize the land around them and the society they built and those that accepted it. They had the entire world broken due to decadence and arcane use, the stigma made sense and so too did it make sense that the high elves would bail and make their own society on the lines of the previous empire. Hence, you had a dichotomy wherein both races represented aspects of the original empire and were also opposed thematically, having elements and focuses that the other doesn't. If you allow arcane into the night elves, then the high elves become perfunctory and the conflict between the races becomes inane, as does the original gap between the peoples. Both races suffer - the night elves by absorbing more aspects that dilute their central focus in favor of being a cosmopolitan entity capable of all things and the high elves by showing that the reason they left could be easily solved when an incident much less damaging to the kaldorei than the Legion Invasion, be it the first or second happened. Less is sometimes more.

@Mace and @ravenmoon both draw the distinction between night elf arcane use and high elf/old highborne arcane use as being excess. This is not a sufficient line to differentiate the two. What is excessive and what isn't? And if arcane is accepted either way, what separates high elves from night elves? Skin colour and aesthetic, at best. This is unsurprising, because the same posters also support a union of all elves.

They had the world broke through misuse of a great power, not the power itself - it was reckless, decadent and addictive behaviour - and this is what they hated. Don't confuse that with banning of arcane magic.. that was done to prevent the Legion returning, and required a penalty of death because of the threat they believed practicing the arts would bring - not because wielding arcane magic in and of itself was bad or that arcane magic was terrible.


This is a fundamental particular that is crucial to understand the night elves, and why arcane magic is back, why we see more of them, and why it plays such a role. Why the Moonwells were spreading the arcane waters of the well around, why the night elves were still suffused with it - and why they are fine with human mages, Draenei mages and others, why it was mages that fought the legion. And inevitably why you see some druid and priest spells. It explains a lot and it would shift your view of them.

I do see people saying rejected the arcane... and arcane use - this is not actually true. difference between rejecting the arcane and banning it. The confusion is added too when people like Maiev actually hate the arcane.

As for the rest of what you say - the high elves bid to convince the night elves to lift the ban 3,000 years into the vigil was rejected because Malfurion felt the motivation was addiction led, largely because he was asking to do something, that wasn't essential (but for the sake of progress) when such a world ending threat still loomed. And though night elves were smart with magic, he wasn't so arrogant 9and consequently reckless) to think that they could manage it correctly this time and avoid a legion return - the demons were also very smart. He eared on the side of auction. the high elves interpreted that as fear and cowardice, but they may have convinced him over time, however they tried to force the issue, and their spell caused a lot of damage and recklessly endangered everyone, costing lives too - bringing back painful memories of the same reckless behaviour and attitude that brought the legion. This is why they were exiled.

Let me just emphasise a point, as I sometimes see people make it. You say the high elves made their empire on the lines of the previous one - the major thing they had in common with the pre-sundering society was that the arcane was freely permitted, everything else was different. They were more like the long vigil group they'd been a part of for the last 3,000 years in their view towards responsibility, character, nobility. They were not like the kaldorei empire in the invasion era. They rejected everything to do with that, but also the stubbornness to avoid the arcane that the long vigil group. they were going to build a superior, and better society, a superior civilization - not marred with reckless, decadent, addiction, compromises to demons and fel corruption for power like Azshara and the palace highobrne did. Darth'remar saw much of this first hand. The high elves kingdom was not built like that at all. I was noble, fair, just and they were careful. he earnestly believed the night elves could learn from the past AND avoid calling the legion back with their arcane use. Malfurion was able to believe the former, but the latter was too much of a risk.

The blood elves when they became reckless and power seeking became more like the pre-sundering kaldorei, the high elves were not. and their kingdom was better.

There are also other differences.. architecture, theme, culture and religion - these all comet together to form society, switching from night to day is huge, from star/moon focus to sun, now a case where all members are highborne, none are low.. then also the attitudes towards arcane magic - far more restrictive and controlled, aware now that addiction and compromise are possible, as well as the need to hide from the demons. Add to that the drive for a better society.

some people say they are the same because they go .. hey, this one did arcane, that one did arcane therefore they are the same. Well shooting a bow is shooting a bow, it is the same, so is science, regardless of what culture you're in, knowledge is knowledge, forestry is done a certain way, you're not the same because you are using the knowledge and same skill with weapons... if having the same or similar arcane knowledge is not a good enough distinction bewtween night elf and high elf.. is that really important? and if so, why aren't you that bothered that forestry hunting /ranger skills and training between high elvesa nd night elves is also identical.. why is it fine for forestry to be similar but not for arcane to be similar..? Yet despite it being the same arcane base and same type of forestry skill, yet the two groups are different.


Not only their skin colour, but their principals, their architecture and aesthetics, the things they value, their religion, and most of all their history. Do you think that after vastly different experiences, and interactions, that the high elves or even blood elves would be the same as the highborne or pre-sundering kaldorei? Ofc not. When Thalyssra talks about the ideals of the horde and values they share, she is talking about the attitude and viewpoint the nightborne now want to adopt, rejecting the pre-sundering kaldorei way she feels following the alliance would keep her people shackled to the same ways they had been for the last 10k years.. this in other words is saying that the nightborne were not like the blood elves at all, but now admire how the blood elves and the horde are and want ot be like them.


But people ignore this, so willing to see similarities, some of which are there, they have over estimated such similarities and not factored in the story they are ben told properly or what has been shown both of the night elves and the high elves that brings us to where sub-groups like the nightborne and blood elves are.

[Zulkhan]

To answer you and @Mace by extension, you are right that the night elves do have a lot more history and elements to them that often get ignored in favor of tree-hugging and being victims. That having been said, the arcane is an element they should not have. Wolfheart was a mistake and so were the Shen'dralar. A race is defined as much by what it can't and doesn't do as by what it does do and the night elves' gender roles, militancy, relationship with nature and rejection of arcane and 'civilization' are all key there.

Pretty ironic how this precisely reflects the state of WoW's gameplay as well, with every race mastering every class and every class mastering all the tricks. In fact, the homogenization of several races to certain standards has been greatly helped by the "distribution" of all classes among them, included, if we want to stick to the point, the Mage class given to Night Elves.

[ravenmoon]

I'm glad they don't retcon it, rather I'm happy to see that they are mentioned I hope they will add more lore about them. A bigger role for mages in the night elf society would be interesting, it would have a very different from other elf races. If the Shen'dralar would help making Eldre'Thalas the new home for night elfs we would have an interesting redemption ark for them. Rejecting Arcane at this point seems stupid to me anyways with the burning legion gone.

The differentiation is still clear:
- Elune as their goddess
- Strong bound to nature
- Still watch critical at mages
- No nobility

Shen'dralar bring in something thats very important in fantasy, a mystical Element, like they know stuff they don't talk about. Also Eldre'thalas in comparison in Darnassus could be source of mystical elements.. knowledge hidden somewhere in the city, secrets forgotten even by even the Shen'dralar that are still alive. Elune has this element too (and I hope they don't ever take that away)

Absolutely agreed here. It is a good thing cos it gives a different element to the night elves, and their way of doing arcane can also be different. Sure it's similar to the nightborne in terms of the night, star, moon foucs - but that's a racial thing, just like the high elves would do magic similar to the blood elves.

But it can be different in other ways, it can be the type of kaldorei mmagic operation that was in the pre-sundering days before addiction took root, when arcane, nature and elune were side by side, and while the night elves excelled at the arcane most of all, they weren't dismissive nor looking down at nature or elune - they weren't arrogant yet. They still revered the wilds, and believed in the Goddess though they developed civilizations and cities, focusing on learning.


We haven't seen that angle, the Farondis best exemplify it, and the shend'ralar's highborne order is also full of Darnassians who have that intrinsic belief in Elune and revering of the wilds even though magic is their forte, it is already a different kind of arcane institution. And its fine if it has similarities with the nightborne, they are the same group and it's good that it has it's distinctiveness.

I don't see how we can be fine with gnome mages being like humans, and high elves all been similar, yet have a problem with night elves who are the authors of the damn art itself according to the lore. We look and see differences. If the nighte lves are using architecture from the pre-sundering empire like Zin'Azsharia, and the nightborne suramar, these are similar yet different on e is more silver white, with blue and light purples, the others is darker purples, maroon pink with creams and darker blues - sort of like how blood elves and high elves are identical swapping reds for blues.

[Newname1234567890]

It was just a play on some prejudices. I was having a dig at those who think the night elves are terrible at the arcane and as a race can't handle it because the Darnassian faction of them went 10.000 years without practicing their magic.

This has some thinking all there is to night elves is nature and druidsm, and that night elves have no talent in the arcane, aren't good at it, some even feel they are no match for humans, blood elves or their nightborne sub-race.

It was a naughty topic. And it was meant to highlight and mock such prejudice and emphasise from official source that continues to confirm, that the highborne are indeed great arcanists and magicians as was already stated. Seen some people think they were only in the past, and others who think they aren't at all.

I don't think anyone dislikes the entire Night Elves for being 'bad arcanists'more that they are a race of self important vagabonds?

[ravenmoon]

Pretty ironic how this precisely reflects the state of WoW's gameplay as well, with every race mastering every class and every class mastering all the tricks. In fact, the homogenization of several races to certain standards has been greatly helped by the "distribution" of all classes among them, included, if we want to stick to the point, the Mage class given to Night Elves.

We should give up on having a problem with that, because it has been there form the start, a lot of races share classes, that can feel like a homogenisation on the surface, but wouldn't be when their expression of the class is different. The priest class is the same, but the faiths oft he different races is very different, and they have different influences and icons. however the classes don't reflect the racial distinctiveness in the game play, however they exist in the lore. It is the same for mages - night elf mage magic has a particular star and moon magic in it, we also see that in the night elf priests and night elf based druidsm , however Kirin'tor magic, that comes from high elf magic, and is the same magic of the gnomes is more frost based, while the blood elves having that add a more developed fire magic base, whereas the Zandalari take is different in arcanitols - but the distinction isn't in the classes sadly because b lizard doesn't dot hat.

take the hunter class, that combines things that are exclusive to elves previously, others to Orcs and adds them all together, not distinguishing them. in some races rogues are more assassins, in others they are more scouts in others it's the main intelligence network - focuses are different but the classes don't reflect htat when they cross races. But the lore does bring some variation.

It still restricts certain class combos, but I have made some intensive topics on how blizzard can spice this up giving new classes by using gameplay mechanics of existing classes and just renaming the spells and changing the visual effects.

[Ersula]

Balance Druids & Arcane Mages are both technically Arcanists

/thread

[matrix123mko]

The Horde is entitled to the Dark Iron because they are not lawful good

Source: Trust me

Now make it 200 times longer and call it a day. If someone opposes you, make even longer reply and if you run out of arguments, leave that thread behind you and make a new one with different title.

[Mace]

and sometime well over 5k years before the onset of the main defining storyline... the arcanists were banished out of the keldorei lands to turn into what we later came to understand as high elves and train the human nations in the ways of the arcane

You mean the sunstrider highborne group who wanted the ban to lift early, but when they were told non, created an arcane storm that went out of control.

Arcanists weren't banned, it was only the practice of the arcane because that would call the Legion back.. so most night elves decided to stop using their arcane talents and skills to prevent that. The palace highborne group, the sunstriders, 3,000 years after the sundering, felt this was really the rong choice and tried to force their hand, but it backfired.

Sorry to be pedantic, but people think Arcanists were banned, it was magecraft, the arcane practice, you could hold the title arcanists but you couldn't practice if you were one, the culture wasn't banned, nor the titles, it was the using the spells. Without the practice the culture changed, cos much of the old way of life was based on the practice, where they had come to rely on arcnae usage to provide many things,t ehy had to do without, the same lofty living couldn't be achieved because they wouldn't use their magic. So all agreed the arcane could not be practiced, the mages, highborne, moonguard, priests all agreed, as the demons find Azeroth that way - the idea was simple, with the Well destroyed - the reason for coming back to Azeroth would be gone, and the demons would have no interest in it. But if people used the arcane via the well, they'd know it was still there and come back for it.

This is all because the Kaldorei thought the demons invaded Azeroth for the well. They were WRONG. However using arcane magic did light up Azeroth in the twisting nether, and they knew that if Azeroth beaconing, the demons would be able to find it again.

The keldorei that were left were the post vigil amazons and druids that clearly shunned the arcane.

They felt they had to ban it.. all of them.. there were no druids when they put up the ban except for Malfurion.. what became druids were many former mages, former Moonguard and highborne. They didn't hate arcane, but they certainly hated the hubris their society and culture had concerning power.. Their arrogance too, and they learnt. Remember the profile the devs built for the night elves from the start.

Read the text, don't just judge by the surroundings or the first classes. Look at the story.

When the sundering happened Malfurion was the only druid and he also used arcane spells, like all night elves, they learned spell casting from childhood, alongside how to read and write.
So when the night elves ban the arcane, they are only mages (moonguard/highborne and others), priests and warriors. What becomes the druids are many of the arcanists, mages, moonguards agreeing on the course of action to prevent the legion.

when you meet likes of farodin, Rensar Greathoof, you often here them mention there former hubris, and when you see some of the returned highborrne from amongst the Darnassians, there is a reverence for magic.

Think! If they hated the arcane, why bother to protect it? why keep the Moonwells? Why mourn an arcane civilization? Why not be glad there are no cities and arcane magic? Because arcane magic is not the enemy, nor are cities bad things. Nor was there civilization. They are fully aware that magic made them who they were, lifted them out of darkness (as we know from Chronicles, Farodin says as much) but the emphasis is that without control or balance it would unmake the elves - and this is why he helps the nightborne to be brought back into balance.

So you see, the night elves aren't some arcane hating, cilviziaiton hating group at all, they are a righteous group, hating decadence, recklessness, and abuse of their PRECIOUS arcane magic, it is this that brought the compromise in morals that led to the Legion gaining its foothold. The only bad thing about the arcane was that the demons wanted the power, and they could only sense it on the planet when the night elves used it.

This was the problem. Stop using the arcane, demons won't come.. if they blieeve the Well of Etenrity is destroyed, the night elves thought the demons would give up on Azeroth.

So it also follows, once the Legion return, the Long vigil is meaningless, it ends, isolation is also meaningless, and it also pointless banning the arcane on death. They accept it, and even are pressing as many people who the Shen'dralar pick to train quickly. Because they know it's power and use. What they don't like is a reckless, power hungery abuser..

So regardless of how prestigious or developed the Night Elf Empire of old was... they banished, exiled, and shunned that aspect of society so totally that the beings that still adhered to it developed into an entirely new biological species.

Just one group. The moonguard in Moongurad stronghold did not, nor did the Shend'ralar in Eldre'thalas. The only reason the night elves of Suramar did was that they staretd freaking EATING mana when they ran out of food. Rather than lower the shield and swee what was out there, , they instead abused arcane energy to the highest degree, using it for food. Ingenious to survive but also a gross misuse. Some would say you do what you ened to survive, but I would say, grow some balls and lower the shield. I understand they feared that the demons had overran the world, convinced the kaldorei resistnace failed, and that they were fine because of the shield, but at that point not knowing for sure, you go out and you find out..

It highlights the y were still quite arrogant and still in the same cultureal vein, it's a bit like Kael'thas who decided he would suck fel magic to sate the mana thirst rather than sit it out like those who remained high elves chose to. You can understand why they did it, it still doesn't stop it from being a shameful act. something I have noticed, is that while there societies and civilziations are different, the blood elves started behaving in the same reckless dangerous manner of the pre-sundering kaldorei highborne that summoned the legion - which is why the night elves warned the alliance about them. IT is also interesting that the high elves behave more like the Farondis highborne, pre-sundering kaldorei in the pre-addiction culture and attitude (very respectful and responsible with magic)...the nightborne were kinda in between the two stages, some were very arrogant, irresponsible, reckless and abusive, others were quite the opposite of that.
The few pockets of that subset group that managed to persist in their respective plotholes is despite that fact....

Now 30 years after the initial invasion and rough decade later, YEAH some new mages would likely rise up in the ranks. I mean hell, draenei managed to fashion an interstellar war ship in a decade and a bridge was built in redridge in that amount of time so i guess anything is possible. But really trying to site that night elves had extensive history... while barely touching the fact that they themselves did a scorched earth policy removing such facets of their society (as a point from OTHER species origination events...) is getting pretty sadand why Rozz has to come in periodically and remind us about a specific forum rule.

I think the amount of lore on the pre-sundering era is quite extensive. This is what I mean by extensive.. I don't know what my brother or others think it means. I look at the volume of lore written and the development effort put into it.. story, lands, events. There is more on the pre-sundering era than there is on the entire long vigil. Because it was boring an uninteresting and ti was a stage in the story that is used to bring them to the reset that WoW starts.

WC3, is not the defining moment for the night elves, it is the end of the second era, that sets them up for the start of a new era in wow. An era where they rejoin society, start civilization again, and arcane magic returns. It is both after the extensive pre-sundering era, and the long vigil era. And here we see elements from ALL of the night elves' past coming to play. We see druids and mages, we see priest, sentinels, wardens and demon hunters as well as new things - groups like worgen, satyr, naga and how they relate to the present.


Don't judge necessarily by the length of the long vigil. judge by the emphasis in the story, where more time was spent and detail given. Judge by what they worked on and showed in wow, and base your evaluation of the situation on what they are giving development time too, and how much effort is going into.

my brother did a collation of all the night elf sources - books, game quests, excerpts, overall they spend roughly as much time on the druids and priests as they do the arcane aspect of the night elves as they do the demon hunters and illidari. But not many people are looking closer at the overall picture. They don't even see demon hunters or arcane users as night elves or night elf based. how many people still think the nightborne have nothing to do with the night elves.. absolutely ridiculous but it goes to show that many aspects of the night elves are being shown but everybody is recognising them or factoring them in.

[Zulkhan]

We should give up on having a problem with that

I can tolerate it, yes, but I can't stop to "have a problem with that". Everyone having everything inevitably dilutes the races' identity, it becomes harder and harder to uphold truly defining aspects for each race. Distinctive and unique traits are what makes a certain race or group interesting to begin with.

[mickybrighteyes]

Er what? That doesn't follow, you're putting the responsibility for the BElves' mutation (or whatever you'd like to call it) on the NElves for banishing them? It was them completely indulging their magic addiction right up until they became playable.

The highborne who were exiled were severed from the well of eternity and drastically altered physically losing their stature and coloration while not maintaining any connection to some font of power. They had a hunger for power that lead to the creation of the Sunwell. The exile is a main direct reason for the transition from night elf to high elf.

I'm not blaming the night elves for the eventual transition of blood elves... but the formation of the HIGH ElVES is a direct result of the banishment.

edit:

it seems like the highborne were the ones more desiring the use of Arcane rather than the rank and file night elves and they're teh ones who were subject to exile. Those who would meekly live a life without it likely aren't the types to really excel at it... but this just seems to be a grey area where certain posters want to pull a "we was kangs" defense.

Fact is. the Keldorei empire excised the best parts of their living magical heritage on threat of death. Doesn't matter what heights they reached prior, they shot themselves in the foot and acted like everything was fine, with respect to magical advancement.

[ravenmoon]

I can tolerate it, yes, but I can't stop to "have a problem with that". Everyone having everything inevitably dilutes the races' identity, it becomes harder and harder to uphold truly defining aspects for each race. Distinctive and unique traits are what makes a certain race or group interesting to begin with.

what they should have done is a swtor type of thing, where you have your base 12 classes and every now and then a new class, but you use that class mechanic to produce a lot more identities that fit the theme of the race.

take a shaman. It would be horrible if elves could become shaman because it doesn't fit their lore. But give the shaman mechanic a new identity by changing the theme completely.. spell names, effects, it can play the same way but be a totally different class


you can do this for versions of classes that fit a race more specifically - like Priest class on night elves would have the Moon Priestess option where all holy damage spells are swapped for arcane elune versions, and the holy healing spells changed to a moon and starlight silver colour instead of gold, the mage version could have a host of star moon spells or on elves, a Starmancer class could actually use shaman spells with new names and effects that use the exact same shaman playstyle, but totally different appearance.

a Void elf paladin could be a void knight that swaps holy magic for void magic

A lightforged priest could swap shadow for light versions of spells, and Bleves could have access to this also.


Human/Belves/Velves can't be druids - create a Botanist class, where instead of shifting into forms they take on aspects of an animal that essentially do the same thing, but with different names.


Another alternative to shaman for elves is a Moonguard based arcane elemental user.. elven arcane wieldes do generate the elements via the arcane instead.. this is how mages do fire and frost, what if the return of the Moonguard and Duskguard brought back to Elves more extensive knowledge, where they are using the arcane to do something very similar to the shaman, but dressed up differently.. different names, they don't have totems but use arcane focusing beacons that have different appearances for blood elves, void elves, night elves and nightborne.


they can go further than that if they are not afraid of minor balances,.. create certain classes by combining others. e.g you could create a shadow hunter by combining shaman enhancement class with hunter class and take some aspect of the subtelty rogue spec.

they have so many options.. optiosn to have many more class identities without creating completely new pplaystyles for each of them, they can literally use a class and just dress it differently with renameas and different visuals, or go a bit urther and combine certain class specs.


they can even use races.. e.g. wanna give night elf warlocks? well let NElf warlocks be Illidari instead of regular night elves. Call them Fel Lords, that command their armies of demons against demons like you see in the DH order hall, swap the lock fire spells for Fel colours instead by default, they can glyph those back to fire.
Want a void elf paladin - well let the customisation be a high elf instead, some high elves who joined the void elves to ensure the light would be a balancing focus and double ensure no insanity occurs, operate as void elves in their original high elves appearance, like Alleria, their stronger connection to the light prevents their bodies from changing purple, and they wield the light.


So many options some that only require changing name and effect to produce a completely different feel and identity in other words a new class, but sharing the same mechanics as an existing ones. Brand new classes can

- - - Updated - - -

The highborne who were exiled were severed from the well of eternity and drastically altered physically losing their stature and coloration while not maintaining any connection to some font of power. They had a hunger for power that lead to the creation of the Sunwell. The exile is a main direct reason for the transition from night elf to high elf.

I'm not blaming the night elves for the eventual transition of blood elves... but the formation of the HIGH ElVES is a direct result of the banishment.

edit:

it seems like the highborne were the ones more desiring the use of Arcane rather than the rank and file night elves and they're teh ones who were subject to exile. Those who would meekly live a life without it likely aren't the types to really excel at it... but this just seems to be a grey area where certain posters want to pull a "we was kangs" defense.

Fact is. the Keldorei empire excised the best parts of their living magical heritage on threat of death. Doesn't matter what heights they reached prior, they shot themselves in the foot and acted like everything was fine, with respect to magical advancement.

Don't forget to update your lore. When the story was first told, we assumed the only highbonre were the ones in Azshara's palace including Darth'remar.. and that ALL of them were the same way. We have since come to find out there were many more highborne, they were all over the empire, and not all were responsible for the invasion, nor were all as bad as Azshara's palace circuit - we should have known this when we were shown Darth'remar and his group coming out of the palace. There must have been others, and indeed later, when blizzard finally gets back to telling the night elf story, we discover this. Now blizzard could have had this planned for ages, you just didn't see it earlier, cos night elves weren't a focus till Legion, but even before thatyou saw some effort into the shen'dralar.

So we have to update our lore with the new information. So the highborne that are specifically mentioned in that tale are the aplace ones. THe highborne that were exiled by the long vigil group were the Sunstrider highborne who had not picked up druidsm like many other arcane users had ( or maybe they had, but got fed up of it and wanted to integrate or augment it with the arcane knowledge of the Kaldorei.


We need to be specific, because when you say highborne, it's as if you don't recognise they are other highborne like the Farondis, The shen'dralar and Elisande's group, who all did different things and weren't participating in the corruption in Zin'Azshari's heart.

Saying that yes, the High elves as they came to be was a direct result of being exiled and altered in the process by it.