Blizzard refuses to retcon the Shen'dralar

[mickybrighteyes]

Don't forget to update your lore. When the story was first told, we assumed the only highbonre were the ones in Azshara's palaceincluding Darth'remar.. we have since come to find out there were many more highbonre, they were all over the empire, and not all were responsible for the invasion.

So we have to update our lore with the new information. So the highborne that are specifically mentioned in that tale are the aplace ones. THe highborne that were exiled by the long vigil group were the Sunstrider highborne who had not picked up druidsm like many other arcane users had ( or maybe they had, but got fed up of it and wanted to integrate or augment it with the arcane knowledge of the Kaldorei.


We need to be specific, because when you say highborne, it's as if you don't recognise they are other highborne like the Farondis, The shen'dralar and Elisande's group, who all did different things and weren't participating in the corruption in Zin'Azshari's heart.

Saying that yes, the High elves as they came to be was a direct result of being exiled and altered in the process by it.

The Shen'dralar are stated to have been "The Shen'dralar were Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists" and are specifically the ones charged with safegaurding a specific location that managed to survive the sundering. They aren't part of the society that exiled or was exiled, they just weren't part of night elf society until acceptance events taking place post cataclysm.

Ellisande's group was likewise sequestered away within a very secure location between the sundering and more recent times ALSO cut off from night elf society.

Farondis and his court? Dead... or lost out of time via curse not part of the current night elf society and oblivious of events until the events of Legion.

These are the only other groups of highborne acknowledged thus far outside of the exiled ones. These groups are not part of the darnassian elves living under the Long Vigil rules.

[ravenmoon]

The Shen'dralar are stated to have been "The Shen'dralar were Queen Azshara's most revered arcanists" and are specifically the ones charged with safegaurding a specific location that managed to survive the sundering. They aren't part of the society that exiled or was exiled, they just weren't part of night elf society until acceptance events taking place post cataclysm.

Ellisande's group was likewise sequestered away within a very secure location between the sundering and more recent times ALSO cut off from night elf society.

Farondis and his court? Dead... or lost out of time via curse not part of the current night elf society and oblivious of events until the events of Legion.

These are the only other groups of highborne acknowledged thus far outside of the exiled ones. These groups are not part of the darnassian elves living under the Long Vigil rules.

We were told the Shen'dralar fougth the legion, Goldrinn, fought with them, and died defending the city. They won their battle. Despite beign the Queen's most revered arcanists, making her look good with new wonders they worked on, they didn't side with her, nor were they complicit in summoning the legion. However, the Darnassians in wolfheart are angry with them for ding nothing while they knew what the queen was up to, only deciding to act when their city came under attack.


And yes, you are right about the others, they are not part of the Darnassian group, but I was not aware you were only speaking with respect to the Darnassian group. If you use the term "the night elves", I assume the entire race, not just the Darnassians. The reason we call them that now, is so we can be specific about what group of night elves we are referring too. this is no longer classic or WC3, where we thought they were the only night elven group around and so could safely say "The Night Elves" knowing it only meant them. Race "the night elves" and faction "The Night Elves" aren't always the same. We tend to call the alliance faction the Darnassians, to prevent confusion.

maybe that's why we've been somewhat at cross purposes.

[mickybrighteyes]

We were told the Shen'dralar fougth the legion, Goldrinn, fought with them, and died defending the city. They won their battle. Despite beign the Queen's most revered arcanists, making her look good with new wonders they worked on, they didn't side with her, nor were they complicit in summoning the legion. However, the Darnassians in wolfheart are angry with them for ding nothing while they knew what the queen was up to, only deciding to act when their city came under attack.

And yet they're still not part of the main night elf society post sundering

And yes, you are right about the others, they are not part of the Darnassian group, but I was not aware you were only speaking with respect to the Darnassian group.

It's only the largest population of beings tagged as 'Night Elf' and held the moniker for over 17 years making it the longest standing group of 'night elves' in the established lore. It is basically the group brought up for when searching 'night elf'... and then the links for highborne/illidari/etc are listed under it.

[ravenmoon]

It's only the largest population of beings tagged as 'Night Elf' and held the moniker for over 17 years making it the longest standing group of 'night elves' in the established lore. It is basically the group brought up for when searching 'night elf'... and then the links for highborne/illidari/etc are listed under it.

that's largely cos gamepedia haven't updated the article properly top properly reflect. But you will forgive me if I get confused when you say night elves, and assume you are talking about the whole race and not just htat group.

The dranssian group have not been the only night elves around since 1.1, and the other night elves are quite obvious in Cataclysm expansion, wolfheart , Illidan novels (for the present age and WotA for the pre-sundering era), and Legion expansion.

it may be obvious to you, but to others, when you say night elves, they are thinking of he whole race because that is the accurate way to look at it. Especially those who have some form of autism.

Maybe this is where some of the confusion with myself, my brother and others sometimes arises over when we talk about the night elves, some people mean the Darnassians, some people mean the race, it makes a huge difference when they specify.

As for numbers, again, these are so arbitrary, for all we know there were more nightborne than Kaldroei.. and what about now? after the genocide of the War of thorns?

it is the same assumption people make about their new highborne order, we don't know whow many night elves swapped from druidsm back tot he arcane, how many new ones joined either. how many shen'dralar were they?

To assume it is a small or marginal number is just irresponsible and inaccurate - at best we don't know, but estimates? My brother estimated about 20 shen'drlaar survived, My estimate was somewhere in the 100s. He argued that we didn't see that many zealots in 1.1, I countered that actual in game numbers are representative, not accurate. To illiustrate, Elegy/Good War say only a few hundred got out of Darnassus alive, thousands died, making feel there were very very few night elves left in the world. Yet when I walked around Teldrassil, I didn't count as much as 50 NPCs in total - the game did nto show me these thousands.. everything in the game is a scaled down version.


And we see schools of night elves studying under the mages in several location, the largest number of students for any night elf class, we can intuine this is popular amongst them. And it makes sense, because the ban on the arcane was not out of hate for arcane itself, but to prevent the legion returning and the problem with the previous society was not the magic itself but the bad attitude towards it (arrogant, abusive and reckless).. so once they no longer need to ban it post legion, why would it surprise you that many night elves, who are as a race gifted with arcane magic, wouldn't want to pick it u p with their respectful and humbler mindsets? a good portion of them having been before the sundering and learnt exactly where the bad attitude will take you and had put it off?

Why would night elf society have major issue with it? The proof is in their acceptance, the issues were ironed out when the bid for the highborne to rejoin was being discussed. It makes sense that the problem was not with the arcane magic, but with the trustworthiness and grievance with the highbonre

[mickybrighteyes]

that's largely cos gamepedia haven't updated the article properly top properly reflect. But you will forgive me if I get confused when you say night elves, and assume you are talking about the whole race and not just htat group.

The dranssian group have not been the only night elves around since 1.1, and the other night elves are quite obvious in Cataclysm expansion, wolfheart , Illidan novels (for the present age and WotA for the pre-sundering era), and Legion expansion.

I go to google. type in "night elf"

first link

second link

third

fourth

fifth

all 5 pages have:


or the seal designating the Night Elves of Darnassus.

I think that should be enough of an indicator showcasing what group is typically thought of when using the term 'Night Elf'

edit:

also calling it 'arbitrary' to point out an obvious population difference is amusing.

[ravenmoon]

I go to google. type in "night elf"

first link

second link

third

fourth

fifth

all 5 pages have:


or the seal designating the Night Elves of Darnassus.

I think that should be enough of an indicator showcasing what group is typically thought of when using the term 'Night Elf'

edit:

also calling it 'arbitrary' to point out an obvious population difference is amusing.

Yeh but google brings up all pages, get a page of night elves based on WC3, you will get the information of the time, you wouldn't get the updated information from the novels and the expansion until someone incorporates it together - it is the information in the blizzard released products that actually matters, not the pages google brings up. The people who cared about night elves and such may not be that keen on them enough to update pages.

You know a lot of the info out there on web pages is out dated..best way to keep up to date is to read the lore and go through the official sources that tell the story, like the game. itself.

[Ryonas]

TBH, I've thought the reclamation of Eldre'Thalas was a foregone conclusion ever since I found out that Teldrassil was going to be destroyed.

[mickybrighteyes]

Yeh but google brings up all pages, get a page of night elves based on WC3, you will get the information of the time, you wouldn't get the updated information from the novels and the expansion until someone incorporates it together

I'm linking to show what it likely the general consensus for the layman. It seems that Night Elf is a recognized established group rather than 'generalized race' for a lot more than just myself.

- it is the information in the blizzard released products that actually matters, not the pages google brings up.

I think that's a good jumping off point for a different discussion for how various outlets gather the information they show. But honestly, when the survey comes back and your answers aren't present it's a poor argument trying to decry another's error.

The people who cared about night elves and such may not be that keen on them enough to update pages.

considering some of those pages ARE up to date and still leading in with darnassian based?

You know a lot of the info out there on web pages is out dated..best way to keep up to date is to read the lore and go through the official sources that tell the story, like the game. itself.

The point was to show what seemed like an obvious conclusion or expected definition.

Only a very niche audience breaks it down the way you do... maybe yourself and Mace?


edit:

Survey of Bing/Google/duckduckgo/dogpile/yahoo....

no profile logged in on any

Wowwiki
wow.gamepedia
Wowhead
worldofwarcraft website
the above all going to Night elf player faction page.

same pages for all engines all in the top 5-9 entries all referencing the Darnassian based player faction first and foremost. The only other entries popping up in the top 10 are fantasy name generators, youtube videos (night warrior specifically), and wc3 pages.

it seems a certain specific group has the main attention concerning usage of the term and is far more established in the common usage.

[Hellspawn]

The point was to show what seemed like an obvious conclusion or expected definition.

Only a very niche audience breaks it down the way you do... maybe yourself and Mace?

I think if you care about this stuff you know about it. We had the Shendralar in Darnassus since Cata, the same Shen'dralar that also helped the night elf to escape burning of Teldrassil with their portals. In the Warfront, the Shen'dralar help as well. They are also scattered around in the leveling zones from 1-60 helping for example get rid of demons in Felwood. So for me this would be an intersting next development step, especially with the burning legion gone, the main reason why they forbid magic is gone.

[mickybrighteyes]

I think if you care about this stuff you know about it.

That is more about differences in interpretation and how people wish to argue their interpretations....

people with vastly different definitions on teh same term trying to point out the other is wrong because they have their own definition is another matter.


As for teh continuation of the story... yes the arcane ban has been lifted.... it was still in place and much of the magical heritage of the night elf empire left either by exile or death before the remnants of the Shendralar were allowed grudgingly back into the fold. A point that seems to get lost because people wish to argue night elves are more adept at magicking things than we give them credit for.

[ravenmoon]

I'm linking to show what it likely the general consensus for the layman. It seems that Night Elf is a recognized established group rather than 'generalized race' for a lot more than just myself.

Oh..oops, point taken.

It is sort of why I go into the detail I do about the other aspects of the night elves, because most lay man obesrvers, either see out dated information, or part of the information. But then, if the night elves are the enigmatic race blizzard describes them, then this suits the purposes very well, only after going ddeply into them, would they begin to understand them fully.. until them, many of the thigns blizzard shows will be puzzline.

I remember one of the first htings that struck me about them, was they banned the arcane, yet had a huge massive arcane well and moonwells. It was only till later I realised, it wasn't arcane magical energy they banned, but the practice of arcane magic - as in sorcery, and that for a specific reason.

considering some of those pages ARE up to date and still leading in with darnassian based?

They append new information, but don't adjust the old article.. look, I would have done it, or my brother or a number of people, but no one has. It's a mammoth job, I remember when Mace wrote the nightborne piece, it took a few days, and so much info has changed since then. Some have updated from time to time, but the section is huge, and it's really fans that do this.

Blizzard has their internal notes, which are far more comprehensive, and ofc the original creator and people who first hashed the race's identity and characteristics are still around or easily accessible... so they have them there. Evidence of it was when theyd di Suramar, it was so accurate by WotA trilogy account, such a good presentation fo the kaldorei empire, and they captured the breadth of the night elves in the broken isles, from mages, to moonguard, druids, highborne, nightborne, wardens, Illidari, emerald dream worgen, Ravencrests (though as undead), sentinels, Moon priestesses - iconic locations from the ngiht elves' lore, like Suramar, Black rock hold, Cathedral of Eternal night.

The detail is astonishingly accurate and true to the first words written about them and the first novel all the way back to 2002/2004. They remember.


As I say, most people don't READ the novels. in the wiki page, the arcane aspect is talked about, but it goes on to length on WC3 info, pre-sundering info is on the highborne page in more detail - and that is because the person who wrote that article focused on the emphasis at the time of Wc3, WoW classic. If he were to re-write the summary now , with night elves being a lot more balanced wthoughout all their key schools and orders, the emphasis on all other aspects, including mages would be there.

THe wiki authors aren't the developers, and even when they are you wil notice wiki pages don't always contain everything. Let's see the emphasis on the night elves the developers put in the in-game manual , the opening narrative of classic, the material released,


Then you see that while the gamepedia info is accruuate, it's balance isn't exactly true to the reality. And that's another difference between fact and truth.

The point was to show what seemed like an obvious conclusion or expected definition.

Only a very niche audience breaks it down the way you do... maybe yourself and Mace?

that's true, but it's a niche audience that has taken the time to look at the detail, and dedicated their time to getting a good understanding of their favourite race, they've picked up the particulars, the hidden info, the obvious things that didn't seem to match, and in their discussions and investigations they , if a layman happens to be around during their topics, then they can actually get an eye opener, and address some of their misudnersatndings, have some mysteries about the night elves solved, and also understand why other night elves like demon hunters, mages, night elven cities that weren't present in WC3 are actually around now.

- - - Updated - - -

I think if you care about this stuff you know about it. We had the Shendralar in Darnassus since Cata, the same Shen'dralar that also helped the night elf to escape burning of Teldrassil with their portals. In the Warfront, the Shen'dralar help as well. They are also scattered around in the leveling zones from 1-60 helping for example get rid of demons in Felwood. So for me this would be an intersting next development step, especially with the burning legion gone, the main reason why they forbid magic is gone.

Bingo.. . well said, if you care about the stuff, you know about it. You catch the details others might miss, you look at the bigger picture, the overall tapestry, looking in close via in-game especially with repittion play of TBC//WotLk you tend to only see the druidic side, but if you really pay attention, think about it, then add all the other components of the night elves, you see duruidsm is just a part of these people, not the whole, yo u woiuld be surprised that the arcane, that was banned in the main group, is still a major part and plays a role in them all throughout the long vigil, even when they banned its practice.. you also see how influentioial and piuivotla the demon hutners are though a small group. you watch and match how their numbers change, ..e.g. right now you can estimate that their areprobably as many druids, as are preists, as are sentinels as a mages, the amges are probably the largest group now, as most would have survived the war (only 3 actauly fought in Ashenvale the rest were doing portals or on other assignemnts or in Feralas.

when blizzard does lore or shows lore, they show you, they don't often describe fully everything, their are pieces all over, pieces in your race, or in you faction, sometimes in your class, sometimes on items, often in art with the style imagery, bestiary colours etc, then also in comments, interviews, panels, as well as books, comics that you can piece together a picture.

The developers sort out what they are doing, then show it - because you experience it via playing, in a book it's by a narrative. BUt it's there.


Anyway well said. Not many realise that every hinderance or reason for even the most sceptical night elf to stimgatise or reject the arcnae like in the long vigil era is gone. But the most profound change was in Warcraft 3.. the Long vigil was the watch to prevent what happened in WC3, the return of the legion to our world. Once they came back, and the nature of it, it became pointless hiding Azeroth by banning magic. the secret was out, and despite their return,t hey got defeated, and they came again and were totally once an dfor all beaten.


Gosh, there have been some great pieces on the forums by myself and others that have really devled into the outlook of a ngiht elf and the changes the return of Suramar, the legion, the curing of addiction, the revelation of the legion's true objective, the truth about Illidan who was thought to be a betrayer because they felt he was a legion agent and that he recreated the well to call the legion back. NO t many people even get that illidan's innocence is clear in the novel, because it tells you Illidans thoughts and intetnions, but the other night elves don't know if this is ture, they don't know if he is really on their side and his explanation is genuine or he is sold out to the demons, so when he loses his temper and slaughters the mages coming to remove him from the well and almost kills Jarod, they think him an agent, Maiev is screaming for his head and hates him and everything that destroyed her suramar and family, into some unstable, crazy deep hatred for all things magical.


Some people assume maiev's views are the views of all the night elve,s but both Wolfheart and Illidan the novel show that she is isolated in this extreme view.. she does incite some night elves to join her, but they fall away.
And this fits the night elves' description as a highly intelligent race. They aren't htat stupid to see rason and still ignore it, unless theya re consumed by hatred like Maiev was. It's one thing to be wrong about magic when you actually didn't know, another thing to be presented with the facts and still irratioinally hate the thing.


most players felt the night elves hated the arcane cos they band it and it was ultimately a bad thing. for al ong time blizzard didn't reveal wihether the arcane as a magical source was good or bad, The night elves' story showed another side of how dangerous the magic could be used..but while they had other indications that it was a good source of magic, but a source that could be used for good or evil like any tool, Chronicles Vol 1 finally put that bed to rest.


However osme people have not updated their lore with what blizzard has shown or spelled out. If you remove from your assumption that the night elves hate the arcane, because it isn't actually bad... you then begin to see evidences of this all over the place.. when you look you see it wasn't the arcane they hated but their own hubris, their abuse of the arcane they believed was very precious. The ban on the practice of arcane was just that, it wasn't a ban on the arcane.. you can't ban a magical source that underpins everything htat is made... so you get to understand a finer distinction - and it matters. You read it was arcane that made them who they are, and you also read they have an arcane essence, their eyes glow silver with the arcnae power within them, then you see that throughout the Long vigil, they had the Well of eternity the whole time, were connected to it, suffused by it, and used it to make Moonwells all over. So they used the arcane anyway, just not for practicining spells.


This was not a retcon, this is actually how Wc3 presented it and classic wow, we just didn't fully understand it because we didn't really know the full nature of this thing. We also find out that the Long vigil group were not the only group of night elves that survived, and the highborne that became high elves were not the only highborne that lived on as elves etiher.. the existence of other groups didn't change any information, it just made us realise that the statmeents made about them in certain sources was referring only to the people that source mentioned and not necessarily all the highborne that ever existed all throught out history. As we get examples of highborne that were quite good, like farondis, and the shen'dralar too tutnil they got poisoned by summoning a demon. Biut freed themselves.

[sam86]

They fought the WotA with a mage army, the moonguard was the backbone of the resistance army against the legion, the empires most highly trained arcane combatants. Did you think they had an army of druids and rangers? this was an arcane using society. Read war of the anceints.

Mage NElfs weren't "kicked out of society" before the first war ended.. where are you getting this from? The palace highborne (not every single highborne) summoned the legion that destroyed so many cities and murdered so many night elves, most of the night elves from around the empire, highborne and normal alike that could fight joined a resistance with the Moonguard (the most famous battle mage GROUP) leading the charge.

ok 1) first of mages were at Azshara side not other way around, the backbone of the resistance was - like any other war - the common warrior or archer, not the far rare individual who can use magic spells
2) their experience was sh8t in magic, as shown in wota story when Rhonin traveled and saw how primitive they were, which make sense, they are literally first class to start use magic, u don't start building space rockets when u just invented the wheel
3) the distrust of magic was strong in nelf society, and i was wrong they didn't get kicked mid-war, but they did get kicked out as soon war ended, along with anyone who think of use magic ever

you've really got this wrong. Azshara was not the first mage, she was the most incredible ruler. And night elf arcana was at a higher level 10,000 years ago, than current magecraft which is made up from the fragments of knowledge lost in the great sundering from the night elves' empire. This is why the return of Eldre'thalas and Suramar as well as Moonguard Stronghold are such treasure troves, because these cities had a lot of intact knowledge that was lost to the rest of the world including the night elf resistance survivors who did the long vigil without arcane practice.

In Warcraft story, the night elf empire was the golden age of civilization and the most advanced of magic for the Azeroth based races. You see, it is a post-apocalypse world for the night elves.

4) already established fact that nelf magic experience was crap in point 2 above, by Rhonin standard - and Rhonin while talented was never described as another Khadgar or Medivh or Jaina (current); so even during their most pick advance, their magic was still low, and it make sense, u don't start at max, u advance more with time until u start to crumble and fall
5) Azshara again has no real experience, that is a fact, another fact her only time to actually use a spell (not suspected charm) was something Jaina do very easy since wrath era and she still failed, if u want to sell to me she is strong prove it, not just say 'she is strong', and even then she is strong by over 10k years standards, and lucky for us most Azeroth races aren't pandas who spent their life just f8cking eating brewing and do zero advance in society or science or anything, goblins/gnomes alone probably practiced magic far beyond any lvl nelf did, and they are nowhere as experienced as belfs, the real master of magic in Azeroth due to sheer number of wars they did

But I mean, sure... big arcane army... that literally sprang out of nowhere at year 28... literally sprang out of nowhere. Like the horde's navy.

what is retcon about having navy ? if anything, it would be retcon to not have navy, it doesn't make sense that 2nd strongest faction in Azeroth with 5 base races doesn't have a navy, but is it stronger than alliance ? that is another topic
but to say horde have a navy is like say humans have hunters, no need to recton to introduce hunters to human players, of course humans have hunters, how else they hunt food? pray for the light that a gazelle deliver itself to their doorstep?

[mickybrighteyes]

what is retcon about having navy ?

never said it was a retcon. I said it came out of nowhere.

if anything, it would be retcon to not have navy, it doesn't make sense that 2nd strongest faction in Azeroth with 5 base races doesn't have a navy, but is it stronger than alliance ? that is another topic

the Tauren are nomadic wandering group with largely inland connections. no sea faring navy to speak of.

Orcs came to found Kalimdor with something like less than 10 stolen ships (i want to say four but that might just be the limit shown in the game's mission.

forsaken and darkspear probably had something but it wasn't ever really shown off in any capacity in the RTS (which really lacks much in the way of naval units beyond transports).

Horde really didn't have much of any real naval forces till they started showing 'some' off in wrath and then cata and mop came with horde naval forces harrying the alliance somehow.

The founding of the horde was not some new established nation, it was the shattered remnants of various refugee groups glomping together with whatever they had... ships was not exactly present among the discussion till we got to Cata era and Garrosh's horde nation was giving itself a steampunk/metal facelift.

[sam86]

never said it was a retcon. I said it came out of nowhere.



the Tauren are nomadic wandering group with largely inland connections. no sea faring navy to speak of.

Orcs came to found Kalimdor with something like less than 10 stolen ships (i want to say four but that might just be the limit shown in the game's mission.

forsaken and darkspear probably had something but it wasn't ever really shown off in any capacity in the RTS (which really lacks much in the way of naval units beyond transports).

Horde really didn't have much of any real naval forces till they started showing 'some' off in wrath and then cata and mop came with horde naval forces harrying the alliance somehow.

The founding of the horde was not some new established nation, it was the shattered remnants of various refugee groups glomping together with whatever they had... ships was not exactly present among the discussion till we got to Cata era and Garrosh's horde nation was giving itself a steampunk/metal facelift.

in wc2 both forest trolls and ogres gave the horde their navy, but goblins gave them the submarine turtles
regardless, entire orc race surely didn't travel using 4 or even 10 ships, of course that was purely gameplay not lore, and if u use wc3 model then alliance didn't have strong navy either, both races had access to same navy power using shipyards in some missions (that include forsaken, i remember using forsaken ships, can't recall why)

[Mace]

ok 1) first of mages were at Azshara side not other way around, the backbone of the resistance was - like any other war - the common warrior or archer, not the far rare individual who can use magic spells
2) their experience was sh8t in magic, as shown in wota story when Rhonin traveled and saw how primitive they were, which make sense, they are literally first class to start use magic, u don't start building space rockets when u just invented the wheel
3) the distrust of magic was strong in nelf society, and i was wrong they didn't get kicked mid-war, but they did get kicked out as soon war ended, along with anyone who think of use magic ever

1. Except the account of the WotA mentioned the moonguard as the backbone of the armed forces. it was a mage and priest (ngiht warrior) army they took kalimdor, and the fighting mages were Moonguard, not necessarily highborne. It was the same moonguard that formed the backbone of the resistance. Physical weapons weren't that effective against the demons.But yes they had warriors and rangers too, and it is plausible they were the bulk of the army, but the focus of the story was often on the magical fighters. But I guess by necessity as they were the only ones having much success against the demons.

2. Despite the silly time jump changing the original story that had the night elves fighting the Legion in a war that lasted over 200 years - the idea is that Rhonin comes in at the stage they are just discovering the Legion, not arcane magic. His spells are powerful because the elves in the future learn how to use the arcane from the atmosphere, at that time the elves only use the arcane from the Well of Eternity - he comments on this.


Furthermore they have no experience fighting demons at the start, and Rhonin ofc has. So they amazed at this, the original night elves, found ways and became good at this, Illidan's Black Rook hold encountershows that hey weren't arcane novices compared tot he present. And that fits the lore.


Rhonin's spells were powerful because of his technique of using the arcne from the atmosphere, and comes in particularly handy when Azshara restricts the use of the Well to only those in the palace so they can summon demons.

Magecraft for the night elves was much more than combat/battle. you can be just as good as a night elf in battle if you've trained well, doen'st mean your society comeseven close in other things, like non-comabart uses of the arcne, creaeting wonders - which is why we are told the night elf empire was the most advanced civilization even by todays standards, none come close.


Moonguard weren't noobs,

4) already established fact that nelf magic experience was crap in point 2 above, by Rhonin standard - and Rhonin while talented was never described as another Khadgar or Medivh or Jaina (current); so even during their most pick advance, their magic was still low, and it make sense, u don't start at max, u advance more with time until u start to crumble and fall

Which you are wrong I your conclusions of what that means, how can the night elves be crap at the arcane yet be the most advanced at it ever, so much so that the magic of this age pales in comparison. it's the lore that establishes them. Therefore I suggest you go take a closer look at exactly what Rhonin was good at and why. Because the War of the ancients accounts tells you. his magical knowledge wasn't superior to theirs in anyway except for fighting demons they had just met, and for drawing arcane power from other sources, they didn't know yet. Also bear in mind, Rhonin and the current age know this from what the night elves discovered in the original timeline, they are the ones that gained the experience fighting demons with magic, and after the sundering, the high elves learn to draw magic from the atmosphere they eventually share with humans.

Furhtermore the state of high elf magic and kirin'tor magic is no where near Kaldorei empire magic.. this is confirmed in many places and comments, inlcluding more recently by the Reliquary leader that points out the vast majority of the knowledge of the highborne has been lost to them, and is why he is in Azsuna/Suramar. Wow is set in a setting that great treasures and knowledge are buried in long fallen elven cities - because of all the knowledge they discovered with their hyper accelerated intelligence and great magical resources, not to mention the sheer numbers they ahd applied to magical discovery, with an era of peace they stewarded - with no war, and with a united society, ofc they'd have made all manner of advancements, many local to the people and places that discovered, likely also taken to the capital, and since that fell, most of that lost. I also assume the knowledge without computers is contained to many of the individuals that spear headed the research, so bar sharing their techniques with others like Azhsara or students or recorded in tomes, when they die it is lost, unless you discover their lost relic/device or lost tope with recordigns.


if you think about it, despite their desire to start using magic again, like the Darnassians, the high elves lost a lot of knowledge, they'd have the knowledge of the indivduals, but the vast majority of what the empire produced would be lost, now as they exceled, they'd discover or re-discover new things and techniques, but with much smaller numbers, a fraction of the population, and not being so arcane focused as the kaldorei were (the high elves were far better rounded than highborne led kaldorei society) , not to mention they had far more trouble, with constant wars with the Amani trolls and others - they'd have been battle hardened - (which is why hacking an arcane construct would have been taken care off in high elf society , not necessarily night elven highborne closeted in a city with no need to fight (like the nightborne and shend'ralar - the nightborne had a faction of the moonguard with them, with at least 1 general (spellblade Aluriel) in the city, and it is that Moonguard faction that forms the Duskguard (their is a Moonguard quest that sends you into suramar to get some information from a former student). And despite their great power, when the nightborne attack moonguarrd stronghold, despite their overwhelming numbers and wielding the powerof the nightwell, the Moonguard take out a lot more of them than the other way around, - which makes sense, the Moonguard have remained arcnae users for 10k years in a far more hostile environment, having to fight and survive a lot more, including wathicng out for demonic threats and the like. It makes sense they'd be far in practice than the Duskguard. And unlike the high elves and the Darnassians, they didn't lose any of hteir knowledge and techniques, because the stronghold survives - so all those advanced techniques and skills survive with them and the duskguard, but they make much more use.

5) Azshara again has no real experience, that is a fact, another fact her only time to actually use a spell (not suspected charm) was something Jaina do very easy since wrath era and she still failed, if u want to sell to me she is strong prove it, not just say 'she is strong', and even then she is strong by over 10k years standards, and lucky for us most Azeroth races aren't pandas who spent their life just f8cking eating brewing and do zero advance in society or science or anything, goblins/gnomes alone probably practiced magic far beyond any lvl nelf did, and they are nowhere as experienced as belfs, the real master of magic in Azeroth due to sheer number of wars they did

Belves are great at magic, they are elves, this affinity come from the night elf make up, it is more powerfully present in the original night elf, than it is in a blood elf . Genetically the high elf devolves, he is not the apex that the night elf is, the original incarnation from magic. So the Darnasisans magical capacity is greater, however the darnassian bans arcane practice to prevent the legion. but is continually suffused with the arcane, for much longer than any living high elf, - by a more powerful source and for longer.
But they don't use it, so they're just oout of practice. A Belf would be more skilful on average because of the longer period, not necessarily less talent.

Darnassians didn't use the arcane for spells, so didn't augment their intelligence, which is why magical using Belves should have a higher intellect than priest/druid nelves - but not than shen'dralar highborne or nightborne nor moonguard - because these have continued using the arcane, never stopped, they'd be more skilful, knowledgeable, more experienced and naturally have a higher capacity for the arcnae.

so it goes Nightborne/Shen'dralar/Moonguard > Blood elf/Void Elf > High Elf > Darnassian Night elf - when it comes to arcane knowledge, practice and power. While the shen'dralar/moonguard would have more experience and arcnae knowledge, not having the stagnation the nightborne had, the ngihtborne though developed chronomancy a powerful skill none of the other elves have, whereas the void elves develop void magic, which only the night elven night warrior priest rituals comes close to mastering.

At least that is my take.

[mickybrighteyes]

in wc2 both forest trolls and ogres gave the horde their navy,

The horde that we see founded in the third war was refugee orcs fleeing on a handful of stolen alliance ships, just the darkspear trolls from their island assaulted by the kul tiran forces that followed the orcs to kalimdor and nomadic tauren walking on foot across the region.

regardless, entire orc race surely didn't travel using 4 or even 10 ships, of course that was purely gameplay not lore,

Well it wasn't the entire orc race. It was whatever Thrall managed to free and whoever followed Grom.

and if u use wc3 model then alliance didn't have strong navy either, both races had access to same navy power using shipyards in some missions (that include forsaken, i remember using forsaken ships, can't recall why)

Alliance still had Kul Tiras during these events who was and is still regarded as having something among the greatest navy worth mentioning.

[sam86]

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1- no, never ever in any war the majority of the fighters were magic users, u keep talk about it while the reality most of ppl who fought in war even wota were normal ppl who had to pick a sword or axe to defend themselves, u can use 'backbone' as much as u want it still doesn't say majority
2- so against all logic, nelfs had better magic skill in past than now? what was rest of world doing? did rest of world join pandas in being the laziest most useless race(s) doing absolutely nothing for centuries?
we already know that Dalaran at least spent thousand of years research in magic
3- everyone was noob, this was first war for everyone and first in everything, and the war itself didn't last 200 years, entire war lasted less than a year, Rhonin, experienced the full war and there is zero mention of even a single year passing in it
4- nelfs society is built to be anti-mages, they hate mages, to claim they have natural affinity to magic doesn't make sense, if they ever had one, they killed it over 5k years ago, only reason belfs rank higher than any other elf race (or any azeroth race in general) is because they actually are the most living race with most experience, any race that outlives them was hiding and that doesn't give u lot of practical experience when u are just hiding
Only race that can be better as mage than belf is lightforge draenei, who are immortal AND spend their entire life fighting BL, I don't have alliance char and i don't know if they have mages in them, but if they don't, then literally no one can be better than belfs because we know wow history and no one had the chance to have as much experience

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Well it wasn't the entire orc race. It was whatever Thrall managed to free and whoever followed Grom.

which is all orc race except frostwolves who refused to leave, as shown in wow and any lore source later, this is first time i read that instead of all orcs, to be whoever he freed
He freed all orcs

Alliance still had Kul Tiras during these events who was and is still regarded as having something among the greatest navy worth mentioning.

u were talking about what the game gave us, and while kul'tiras were indeed part of alliance in that time, the game didn't gave us any superior navy for them, it gave equally units for both sides, which is crap but it was u who used the wc3 model

[Wolfrick]

Wildy unpopular opinion which I fully endorse
You can dislike the story, you can dislike the flow forced by the nature of MMO's, but it is good and better then it has ever been.

Great to see you agree,

PS: great mind thinks alike

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My computer back then for some reason could not handle the warcraft 2 map editor so I had to go to a friend's house to edit in there, save on disk and take it back home hah. Its indeed a pity they didn't explore more the lore of Warcraft 2 in The Burning Crusade, they could have used so much more. A "reforged" Warcraft 2 would be great but would also be nice if they actually redid the maps to look like what they are at WoW, even if it changes them. My dream is having the units having the skins they got in WoW, such as the paladins having some of their class sets and the horde death knights using the corruptor raiment set.

Amen brother!!!

I am a very Hopeful person... so my hops are that one day we will get back to a revamped outland... with way better Lore and twists from warcraft 2 and 3

[Mace]

1- no, never ever in any war the majority of the fighters were magic users, u keep talk about it while the reality most of ppl who fought in war even wota were normal ppl who had to pick a sword or axe to defend themselves, u can use 'backbone' as much as u want it still doesn't say majority
2- so against all logic, nelfs had better magic skill in past than now? what was rest of world doing? did rest of world join pandas in being the laziest most useless race(s) doing absolutely nothing for centuries?
we already know that Dalaran at least spent thousand of years research in magic.

1. you have a point there, although, the night elf empire and the legion invasion is not a typical emprie, a typical race or at ypical situation and in fantasies any number of conventional details can be different.

2. This is how Warcraft is written, and it isn't unique to have the golden age in the past, and a race or group living in a post apocalyptic world where they lost much of their stuff and haven't been able to rebuild or reclaim it.

According to the lore for this story, most of the cities and knowledge was lost in their destruction by the legion (we thought all cities were lost, until 1.1 gives Eldre'thalas only 1,000 years falling into decline, and 7.0 gives Suramar still in pristine condition preserved perfectly in a bubble, a living example of the society we aren't shown from Dire Maul but is described about night elf society in the period around the invasion of the legion (War of the Ancients trilogy).

The night elves avoivd their ruins (because of the pain of their loss and the reminder of their folly). You are talking an empire wide knowledge, the few survivors, whether moonguard, highborne or extremely skilled would to know a fraction of all the knowledge available, especially without computers or books. Even the highborne group that leave 3,000 years after no magic practice, suffer a lot of casualties in their exile journey. They rebuild with most of the knowledge of the elves lost and inaccessible - mainly under the sea or in kalimdor where the remaining kaldorei ensure, as part of their duty, that none of their knowledge gets into the hands of races who might be able to learn magic and practice the art that would inevitable let the legion rediscover the magic is still on AZseroth and return for it.

Without arcane magic, the Long vigil Kaldorei aren't rebuilding anything recovering nothing, and the exiled highborne start anew as high elves, they don't have the power the night elves once had, nor all the knowledge. They build something new.

And yes, when you are ravaged with wars, fighting constantly, unable to expand and grow, you're not going to be able to make much progress. The high elves may have been able to grow to the size of the previous night elf empire and eventually surpass it, but they didn't in the 10k years after the sundering, they had wars with trolls plaguing their time, limited room, resource like the sunwell was not the Well of Eternity, or the nightwell - ofc growth isn't going to be as much. Look at how long human kingdoms stood in the middle ages, or the ancient times from about 4,000 b.c to the dawn of the industrial era. For a long time, Rome in the distant past was far greater than anything around up to the dawn of the industrial age.. so for people living in the middle ages, the past was the golden age in terms of wealth, prosperity, civilization.

i'm not sure why it is so hard for you to believe that this is the case for the elves.

3- everyone was noob, this was first war for everyone and first in everything, and the war itself didn't last 200 years, entire war lasted less than a year, Rhonin, experienced the full war and there is zero mention of even a single year passing in it

They were noobs at fighting demons and knowing what they do, hence fel hunters were so devastating at first. The night elves at this point dominated the world and had already fought and eliminated formidable groups and races, including the Azj'aqir conquering trolls. You see indications of this when Spellblade Aluriel boasts of her mastery and expertise - do you think those accomplishments were done as a nightborne? No, she is referring to the kaldorei empire and their successes, and the battles she led.

The night elves aren't noobs, they've conquered all who came against the wielding powerful magic, and we know this isn't low grade noob stuff, Lei'shen and the Zandalari and the knowledge the trolls possessed back then wasn't noob knowledge.

Titan knowledge was more advanced way back then, than our knowledge today, and still is. That is another example of advanced stuff happening in the past.
Draenei knowledge is more advanced on Argus, where they had a great society, the exiles who rebuild on draenor, don't have the scope and capacity of what they had on Argus, so while something are restored, they are fleeing in the twisting nether or Great Beyond for millennia (not innovating and building new stuff), till they find Draenor, in the last few thousand years, you can see how what thy had isn't quite the same level as before. The lore provides reasons.

4- nelfs society is built to be anti-mages, they hate mages, to claim they have natural affinity to magic doesn't make sense, if they ever had one, they killed it over 5k years ago, only reason belfs rank higher than any other elf race (or any azeroth race in general) is because they actually are the most living race with most experience, any race that outlives them was hiding and that doesn't give u lot of practical experience when u are just hiding
Only race that can be better as mage than belf is lightforge draenei, who are immortal AND spend their entire life fighting BL, I don't have alliance char and i don't know if they have mages in them, but if they don't, then literally no one can be better than belfs because we know wow history and no one had the chance to have as much experience

To my recollection, the only night elf that hates mages is Maiev. If Nelf society hated mages, they could not ally with humans, would reject the draenei, would never have lifted the ban on magic, and would not have accepted their highborne back. They would have opposed the help of the horde and alliance in WC3, and would never have fought with the Moonguard leading the resistance in the fight against the Legion in the first invasion.

Without a shadow of doubt they never hated mages, nor the arcane. They banned arcane practice and thus magecraft for fear of the legion's return, not out of hate. When the long vigil ends with the legion invading again in WC3, they work with mages, join the alliance that has mages, and accept their own mages and magical usage back. They hated arrogance, recklessness and abusive behaviour especially of their very precious arcane.

They clearly don't hate the arcane either, because its every where, in the planet, in the air, it is what builds and creates, they are also elevated by it, and they know it. They also have the well of Eternity 9whicih they didn't want after the sundering because they believed this was what the legion was after and would draw them back - not because they hated it), with it back, they are constantly suffused by it and then use its magical waters to make Moonwells to boost nature and purify disease after a blessing from Elune on the waters. This is not an arcane hating group. There is a specific reason for their actions towards the arcane during the long vigil which the lore gives, and it is quite clear about their arcane origins and arcane aptitude. These are the dark elves of wow, and the race was designed to be a fusion of the best aspects f the dark elves (arcane) and the forest elves (nature) and that's what we get in the night elves, the two held together by their moon goddess religion.

The arcane boosts intelligence, prolongs life extensively, increase stature, strength, health, with it they did wonders too - you don't hate something like that. But if some of your race get all arrogant and insufferable, then start using the thing most precious to your people, that your goddess comes out of, start using it recklessly, and abusively, without respect - leading them to compromise their morals and everything, and most of your society and yourself become so vain you don't hold them to account sooner - you are not going to hate your buildings, or your precious magic - you are going to hate your attitude and the people responsible for misleading you - I.e. the palace highborne, the ones betraying you to monsters like the Legion, and then the old gods. That's what you are going to hate.

You know people thought the night elves hated arcane magic, because it was bad, so they mixed up the ban and assumed ah you don't kill people for using something if you like that thing. It's a very un-informed way of thinking, easy to reach that conclusion, but that isn't what the lore shows. WE assumed arcane magic was bad because the night elves banned it and warned about the highborne, blizzard reveals it isn't bad, but the night elves were irresponsible with it. We on looking back at what they actually said, find out they never said the night elves hate the arcane, not once (only Maieve is recorded as feeling this way), the night elves banned it to prevent the legion that destroys the world from coming back, - if doing something would effectively destroy the world (because it calls back invaders that are powerful enough to do so), you are going to ban it with the most severe punishment - it is not because you hate it, it is because using such a thing when you think it will result in the end of the world is both very dangerous and reckless - it's nothing to do with hate. Therefore you stop it.

And you can't ban arcane itself, it's everywhere, it's in you, it runs through the planet, a great concentration of it is in your well, their are creatures that use it naturally. They never tried to ban the arcane, they banned the use of the arcane because it is using it that the legion can detect, and if they know the well was back up, they'd return for it - because the night elves thought the legion was primarily after their magical well and the magic of Azeroth.

They banned the practice of arcane arts - not the arcane itself
They hated arrogant, reckless and abusive use of magic - not magical use. [magical use is prohibited because it is dangerous not hated]
They didn't build cities and civilization because they were carrying out a vigil and couldn't use their magic to rebuild - not because they hated their previous civilization.
They didn't hate their civilization and its infrastructure - they hated the attitudes of their previous society - it's decadence and arrogance.

Shandris wants you to remove the naga from the ruins of Zin'Azshari because they are desecrating the place. You don't have that sort of attitude if you hated the place, and you hated the buildings and you hated cities - no, Zin'Azshari, was a holy place to them, they were created from the Well, they built temples to elune and tot he stars, homes, tried their best to do right, and their queen who they trusted, who had led them so well, betrayed them to the Legion for more power, then to the old gods, and its the reason all this ruin came upon them. if you hated civilization you wouldn't be so angry about its destruction, nor care about the twisted naga desecrating it.

[eurojust]

To my recollection, the only night elf that hates mages is Maiev.

People should stop using Wolfheart as a source. The same Maiev who kills mages on sight hapilly works with a human mage later on and even lend him a warden. Then she comes back in the nelf society like nothing happened and we find out that the torture which was the reason she turned crazy never happened.