Well Outlaw just got killed

[Marrilaife]

You do understand that is TIME TRIALS..Your target is to be FAST...

The whole point of m+ is to do it fast. It's a timed run.

My point is that nerfs generaly speaking are bad i prefer buffs to everyone to reach the "top horse"than nerf it..

Are you familiar with the concept of "power creep"?

[sunxsera]

My point is that nerfs generaly speaking are bad i prefer buffs to everyone to reach the "top horse"than nerf it..

Yes, let `s just buff every other classes aoe dmg by 100-300% to get on outlaws level - that will totally fix it.
NO class can compete with the aoe + utillity from outlaw. Even after that nerf we will still see 1-2 rogues in MDI, because they are hat fucking good.
Be it assa or outlaw.

[Khain]

DPS isn't the reason rogues are broken in M+. Shroud for skips is incredibly OP and even if rogue was average damage the skips would make up for this alone, then on top of that you have sap, gouge + blind in combat as an additional interrupt that also works on things that can't be kicked, BtE being a strong stun with a very short CD adding additional CC without actually wasting any damage doing so (Kidney is a stronger stun but you sacrifice CP that could be spent on a damage dealing ability).

Basically Outlaw has insane control to the point where stacking several of them means you can just lock down a pack. The high damage the spec was dealing made this a no brainer since you weren't even sacrificing anything to have this control.

Assassination actually had the 2nd highest DPS representation in high M+ too which shows that it's rogue utility that makes them so strong.

What they should do is place Shroud on a shared CD like Bres is. 1 per 10 minutes, so bringing additional rogues for additional skips isn't required. Then maybe make gouge a 20 sec CD & place the stun aspect of BtE on a CD. So you can still cast the ability since it's a vital part of the rotation but it will only stun once every 30 sec or w/e. This would keep the utility but stop it being so strong & on top of the damage nerf open up comps to be something other than rogues.

TLDR; it's a pretty big nerf but Outlaw was ahead by a large margin so it's still going to be one of the top damage specs in M+ if not top still, but then the insane utility is going to keep rogue a required class regardless. It might drop down to only 1 rogue required but most likely it'll just be 2x Outlaw & 1 WW as the meta DPS comp.

No dude, whoever says outlaw is brought to M+ because of shroud knows nothing about the game, the same people who said BDKs were brought because of mass grip, and they got what a "no big deal" nerf just like outlaw and now they can't even tank a boss at M+20. There are multiple ways to skip trash this patch, invis pot, shadowmeld, death run, outlaw is purely brought because of its superior cleave damage. Sure utility is a plus but that's Blizzard's fault that rogues are the last bastion of a fun useful class. Now 40% aoe nerf is fore sure a spec killing nerf, like many people said before, Outlaw is shit at single target and when you take such a huge blow to your only strength the spec suddenly becomes pointless.

To make my point clear I'm not that mad about the fact that outlaw was nerfed useless but the fact that they did that on a Tuesday hotfix mid patch after I have invested all my resources into this spec. If you want to nerf like this at least wait for a major patch like 8.2.5 with previous announcement so people can prepare for what is coming. I'm sure I'll have fun being a subpar assassination rogue for months till I get everything I need.

[Alcsaar]

ITT: Lots of outlaw rogues over reacting that they won't be outperforming everyone else by 30% anymore

- - - Updated - - -

You do understand that is TIME TRIALS..Your target is to be FAST...SO you need to min max your performace..
How many people complete their keys in low times..the only thing you care is to complete it in time not in that times
On you example the best +17 excluding the time trials is completed in 26min...which means that you guys thing that the fastest horse is to be nerfed because
it is fast..not because is the best...
My point is that nerfs generaly speaking are bad i prefer buffs to everyone to reach the "top horse"than nerf it..

Being the fastest in m+ is being the best you dolt, its the entire point.

That SS proves just how broken outlaw was/is.

Also your logic to buff everything else is horrendous. This just creates infinite power inflation trivializing all the content that was intended to be done with less dps.

[dcc626]

Could be worse. Try being a tank this expac.

My veng dh in legion could legit solo a 40 man raid team of my veng dh in Bfa. I’d cut through them like Sauron in the opener to LOTR.

The amount of power taken away from tanks from legion to Bfa dwarfs any class nerf

not all tanks. mostly just dh. my monk feels fine to me. and i have a feeling both flavors of prot would be ok about things too.

its mostly just dk and dh.

[Garymorilix]

I'm not saying you're incorrect, but damn that sentence messes with my head. To think how Rogues used to be the worst class at AoE, to come to a point where their AoE is considered a core strength of their class...how did Blizzard stray so far?

Why does that mess with your head? If this is some kind of "classic was better bruh" argument then I don't care.

It's well established that Outlaw's strength is aoe. I dunno why you would act like this is some kind of new information to you.

[cparle87]

Could be worse. Try being a tank this expac.

My veng dh in legion could legit solo a 40 man raid team of my veng dh in Bfa. I’d cut through them like Sauron in the opener to LOTR.

The amount of power taken away from tanks from legion to Bfa dwarfs any class nerf

Tanks always get nerfed at the beginning of expansions. All through MoP I was going around farming the Zandalari Warbringers for their loot bags and mounts on my guardian druid. Day of the WoD prepatch I log on, go to do my thing, and get my ass handed to me. My damage was shot and my self healing from frenzied regeneration was in the toilet.

[justandulas]

Tanks always get nerfed at the beginning of expansions. All through MoP I was going around farming the Zandalari Warbringers for their loot bags and mounts on my guardian druid. Day of the WoD prepatch I log on, go to do my thing, and get my ass handed to me. My damage was shot and my self healing from frenzied regeneration was in the toilet.

Regardless, it doesn't feel good to lose THAT much power in an MMORPG. Especially as a one toon character.

I wasn't exaggerating when i said my veng dh in legion could solo a 40 man raid composed of my DH from bfa currently without a challenge.

I should never be able to look back at any expansion and think "my character from 10 lvls ago would totally kick my ass"

[oplawlz]

This type of knee jerk mid season patch was expected as soon as they decided to ruin yet another portion of the game with their esports poison.

[Poe]

didn't outlaw get nerfed in 8.2 launch as well

[Protean]

lets say that Nerf was justified, but what about our single target outlaw? Isnt the worst single target spec in the game right now? im ok with a Nerf on multi targets but gives a little buff on the single target common !!

If you can bring 3 outlaw rogues and still be fine, Outlaw ST must be fine too. If it were as bad as dramatic rogues cry over, it wouldn't be possible to kill bosses with 3 outlaw.

[Frostyfire14]

15% lol?
It's 15% out of 45% which means 33% reduction to cleave plus the keep your wits nerf. This is a huge nerf and it will most likely kill the spec since it's greatest strength just got a whole lot weaker.

Doesn't kill the spec. It kills bringing more than 1 to a M+ now. They are still strong.

[telygroar]

ok for the aoe nerf, but please buff the single target at least.
And do something for sub, it's just a joke since the loss of the legion artifact.

[Khain]

If you can bring 3 outlaw rogues and still be fine, Outlaw ST must be fine too. If it were as bad as dramatic rogues cry over, it wouldn't be possible to kill bosses with 3 outlaw.

Outlaw single target is only decent if you bring trash into the boss fights due the the keep your wits trait, and the only people who abuse that are the top 0.1% teams in the world. But since they're nerfing the trait as well, it's a complete purge of this spec in competitive play.

[cparle87]

Regardless, it doesn't feel good to lose THAT much power in an MMORPG. Especially as a one toon character.

I wasn't exaggerating when i said my veng dh in legion could solo a 40 man raid composed of my DH from bfa currently without a challenge.

I should never be able to look back at any expansion and think "my character from 10 lvls ago would totally kick my ass"

Until they find a way to keep secondary stats from getting out of hand without a mandatory character level increase each expansion it's going to keep happening, sadly. The only other way I've thought of is to simply reset people's gear to some baseline level of greens and have them gear up again over the expansion, but that opens a whole other kettle of fish.

[ornichi]

outlaw used to be better on aoe and worse on ST than nearly every other melee spec (expect poor enhs and subs).
now it's worse in aoe than dhs, wws and retris, but still sucks balls on st compared to those specs. "Balance".

[peggers69]

The class received a long overdue adjustment, OMG THE WORLD IS ENDING, might as well delete your toon. LMAO!

[Asrialol]

Except no, they won't. Their single target damage simply isn't high enough to make them a top pick. Decent doesn't equal must bring, and that BF cleave was what got them a priority ticket.

Is that a problem?

[Biomega]

outlaw used to be better on aoe and worse on ST than nearly every other melee spec (expect poor enhs and subs).
now it's worse in aoe than dhs, wws and retris, but still sucks balls on st compared to those specs. "Balance".

Do you have any actual data on that? I doubt the nerf will make Outlaw consistently worse at AoE damage than DH/WW/Ret, especially when it comes to sustained AoE. In burst, sure, the classes with chunky cooldowns win. But high M+ is about more than melting a pack in 7 seconds, and Outlaw just keeps going all day every day.

I agree, though, that a ST buff might not have been the worst idea - particularly with an eye towards raids, where gutting the cleave is quite the blow.

[Memnok]

By the representation at the top of the M+ boards its easy to see that outlaw was overpowered for aoe. Today's M+ isn't about the bosses its about how fast you can clear the trash so you don't need great single target dps for the bosses. The change to outlaw will kind of change that, if you have all aoe classes killing at the same time efficiency, then boss kill time will become the priority. I fully expect to see, the top rogues swap to assassination not only will they have aoe on par with outlaw, but they will have superior single target. Assassination, Havoc DH, Feral Druid, Fury Warrior are all going to be more in demand by M+ groups now not because of their superior aoe but because of their better single target. Outlaws should be given something to offset this nerf. Outlaw is capable of dealing out big single target numbers on the occasions when we get the correct rolls, but for every fight with good rolls we seem to get 5 that are reroll reroll reroll reroll reroll shit the boss is dead my dps sucked that pull.

I think the best decision for this problem would have been to increase the aoe abilities of a few of those classes to be more inline with how outlaw was, and make boss kill time more important to the run, to give groups a reason to bring strong single target classes that might have lesser aoe.