Well Outlaw just got killed

[Ealyssa]

This pathetic thread reminds me of the prot warriors tears before the patch about how blizzard "killed the spec viability"...

sure they did

[Kyphael]

Spec sucks anyway. It's so stupid, like it's an improvement over "Combat." The third rogue spec needs to become Bard.

[Khain]

This pathetic thread reminds me of the prot warriors tears before the patch about how blizzard "killed the spec viability"...

sure they did

Totally different, Warrior was the best tank in mitigation while also being able to outdamage dps classes. Now they're still the best mitigation tank that just do regular tank damage. Their ability to tank was unchanged in the patch. Take DKs for instance they took a survivability nerf now they're one of the worst tanks for raid and M+ they just can't survive against tyrannical bosses above 19-20.

Oh and Warriors were not sucker punched with a tuesday hotfix, they knew that was coming for what 3 months?

[kek280]

Need more nerfs

[Niwes]

This is a pretty accurate summary of the situation.

My only problem with Blizzard's balancing is that the nerf core strengths of specs that give them their flavor.

Also, their encounter design always favors one specific type of damage pattern that makes some specs looks OP (aflli locks in antorus) while in reality, you take away the environment and they're totally fine. And the environment always changes so they are stuck re-balancing classes that they nerfed for the previous tier and suck now.

Sub rogues are completely non-existent in PvE content after the Uldir fiasco. Horrible balancing.

yep. i agree to that.

also i will never realize why there is always a FULL raid tier supporting heavily one specific niche, i.e. multi dot specs like affli, boomie or shadow and then another tier focusing heavily on mass aoe snap dmg for massive adds, for elementals, fire, or melee aoe. why they not mix all those encounters in 1 raid tier, so every class can shine the same way and overall all classes are more balanced, inside 1 tier, is out of my head.

[Faesroll]

DPS isn't the reason rogues are broken in M+. Shroud for skips is incredibly OP and even if rogue was average damage the skips would make up for this alone, then on top of that you have sap, gouge + blind in combat as an additional interrupt that also works on things that can't be kicked, BtE being a strong stun with a very short CD adding additional CC without actually wasting any damage doing so (Kidney is a stronger stun but you sacrifice CP that could be spent on a damage dealing ability).

Basically Outlaw has insane control to the point where stacking several of them means you can just lock down a pack. The high damage the spec was dealing made this a no brainer since you weren't even sacrificing anything to have this control.

Assassination actually had the 2nd highest DPS representation in high M+ too which shows that it's rogue utility that makes them so strong.

What they should do is place Shroud on a shared CD like Bres is. 1 per 10 minutes, so bringing additional rogues for additional skips isn't required. Then maybe make gouge a 20 sec CD & place the stun aspect of BtE on a CD. So you can still cast the ability since it's a vital part of the rotation but it will only stun once every 30 sec or w/e. This would keep the utility but stop it being so strong & on top of the damage nerf open up comps to be something other than rogues.

TLDR; it's a pretty big nerf but Outlaw was ahead by a large margin so it's still going to be one of the top damage specs in M+ if not top still, but then the insane utility is going to keep rogue a required class regardless. It might drop down to only 1 rogue required but most likely it'll just be 2x Outlaw & 1 WW as the meta DPS comp.

There's not a single dungeon that requires shrouds from multiple rogues. If you think rogues were OP for any other reason than their damage you're clueless.

[Biomega]

If you think rogues were OP for any other reason than their damage you're clueless.

I'm not disagreeing with you, but having an interrupt, disorient, and stun on short cooldowns as well as two mechanic-negating cooldowns in Cloak and Vanish is also pretty damn OP.

[Mashanerz]

They've been nerfing outlaw consistently for awhile and I'd argue that beguiling was designed 100% with rogues in mind.

This nerf is one of the biggest single patch nerfs I can remember and wish that blizz had a better approach to things, smaller and more frequent nerfs to bring things in line and equally small and frequent buffs to other classes that are under performing.

Does this nerf to outlaw do anything to get more Sub rogues in? If rogues fall behind they just get replaced by whatever else is doing really good, it'd be nice to see blizz try and balance RDPS and MDPS better so that raids aren't favouring RDPS and m+ isn't favouring MDPS.

[agentsi]

So right now for the sake of MDI rogues have 2 dead specs. So nice of Blizzard to sucker punch nerf this spec mid patch after most people just finished farming their level 3 essences. Now I'll have fun being a subpar assassination for months until i get lucky enough to get decently rolled azerite armor and gear.

The typical sky is falling nonsense. The single most overpowered class for M+ for all of BFA thus far is finally got some proper tuning, and he's in a pool full of his own tears. Get over it already, it was 100% warranted. In fact, they should've nerfed them even more.

[Jastall]

Ridiculously overpowered HOW? The. Cleave. Was. The. Only. Thing. They. Had. So now they will have good utility and middle pack single target and aoe. SO OVERPOWERED.

I hope that's a joke. Rogues have more utility than Warriors and Shamans put together, the best PvE survivability in the game, and Outlaw will still have top-tier AoE damage on top of decent-to-good ST damage. They won't completely and utterly dominate the M+ ladder anymore, but that's a good thing, and will remain top picks.

As for raids, Outlaw right now is in the top third of most fights in the game. They can very well handle a small ST nerf.

[xblubbx]

Blizzard is afraid of embarrassing themselves by promoting a rogue only MDI. Double rogue is bad enough as lacking class variety diminishes viewers count. After a triple rogue MDI the MDI itself would be dead.

[Sariengrey]

stop being delusional, it was needed

[Naiattavain]

Give subtlety its glory back thanks. when blizzard first started out they were really good company. today they have turned into the globalist assholes they are today.. the best decision is simply stop doing business with blizzard. they need to suffer and loose money because no one there now knows how to make good games anymore. Chris Metzen was one of their best talent and hes gone. there's no one left that honestly wants to make good product.. STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH BLIZZARD. who ever decided to break subtlety for legions stupid artifact should be fired. end of story.

[ymirsson]

Give subtlety its glory back thanks. when blizzard first started out they were really good company. today they have turned into the globalist assholes they are today.. the best decision is simply stop doing business with blizzard. they need to suffer and loose money because no one there now knows how to make good games anymore. Chris Metzen was one of their best talent and hes gone. there's no one left that honestly wants to make good product.. STOP DOING BUSINESS WITH BLIZZARD. who ever decided to break subtlety for legions stupid artifact should be fired. end of story.

Also, God save the Queen.

[Asrialol]

If rogues were bottom of the pack for a few m+ seasons that would've been fine.

[Dioporco]

>Nerf from 45% to 30%
>Nerf is 33%

Nice NA Math

[Wangming]

The third rogue spec needs to become Bard.

What do you mean? Rogues totally need 3 melee dps specs based around generating and spending combo points. It's called variety.

[essbjorn]

>Nerf from 45% to 30%
>Nerf is 33%

Nice NA Math

If you do the math yourself you will find that it's around a 33% nerf. (45 x 0.66 = 29.7 just to make it simple and not force anyone to pick up a calculator)

[Wangming]

>Nerf from 45% to 30%
>Nerf is 33%

Nice NA Math

That's not NA Math, chump. That's EU math as well. It lost one third (45 minus 15) So yeah it lost 33% 33.33333333.....or something to be specific, but that is beside the point. If you want to insult people learn rudimentary math first. At minimum.

[AkundaMrdal]

15% lol?
It's 15% out of 45% which means 33% reduction to cleave plus the keep your wits nerf. This is a huge nerf and it will most likely kill the spec since it's greatest strength just got a whole lot weaker.

So we won't see 3 rogues per group in MDI? How sad.