Rogues should have Gouge

[shoegazing]

I agree that it has use, like a lot of use, but we already have interrupts and abilities to give us a moment to flee or get back CDs. If we needed more CC i would agree, that it is a good addition to the base kit, but to be honest, i already think we have enough. I find Blind filling the spot of time-extender in PVP and gouge is something i would use only when Blind was off CD and in single combat.

Your limited ability to get use out of tools is not an argument for why they should remain pruned. Here are some examples to help you out:

Gouging a healer so druid teammate can get a clean Cyclone while leaving stun DRs open to swap on a trinket

Gouge Aura Mastery, Calming Waters, etc

Gouge Warrior --> Berserker Rage --> Shiv dispel --> "Fear the warrior now"

Just to name a few....

Again, i would not mind it being there and if Blizzard thought that the toolkit of Rogues lacked CC, i would promote it being instated, but....Cheap Shot, Kidney shot and Blind just feels like enough really. Especially when we also have a pretty good kit in PVP for slows to give us more room.

This isn't a Rogue it's a boring-ass one dimensional stunbot.

The question here is whether they even want to bethink themselves of the classes' roots. To ground the specs in a unified base is one thing, it's another to throw out much of what they've done over the past two expansions.

You maybe know my stance on this. I like the shadowy theme and I think it fits, all I am hoping for is a couple more buttons to press and perhaps a more complex rotation. That may well mean dialing back Shadow Dance in favor of other mechanics, though.

What they've done over the past two expansions is absolute garbage, and anyone who actually enjoys the gaudy, hamfisted, Fisher-Price class fantasy that has nothing to do with the history of the Rogue class AT ALL could still have that option via minor glyphs without forcing this low-brow trash on the rest of us.

[Akka]

That, although I'll miss the mobility we have now. No Shadowstep, Stealth reducing you to turtle speed

You know, the fact that stealth actually makes you FASTER in retail is just so ridiculously stupid I actually don't remember it most of the time. The whole balance between "faster or visible ?" and the most obvious common sense "if you pay attention not being seen or noisy, it very logically should make you move slower" made this something I absolutely loathed despite being an advantage for my class.

Definitely among the things I'll enjoy in Classic, when things were mostly designed to be more grounded and immersive.

[Flurryfang]

Your limited ability to get use out of tools is not an argument for why they should remain pruned. Here are some examples to help you out:

Gouging a healer so druid teammate can get a clean Cyclone while leaving stun DRs open to swap on a trinket

Gouge Aura Mastery, Calming Waters, etc

Gouge Warrior --> Berserker Rage --> Shiv dispel --> "Fear the warrior now"

Just to name a few....



This isn't a Rogue it's a boring-ass one dimensional stunbot.



What they've done over the past two expansions is absolute garbage, and anyone who actually enjoys the gaudy, hamfisted, Fisher-Price class fantasy that has nothing to do with the history of the Rogue class AT ALL could still have that option via minor glyphs without forcing this low-brow trash on the rest of us.

1: But my own experience with how much of a situational spell it is, is. Try setting yourself in any situation and if you can put in Kidney Shot instead of Gouge, much of its unique usages disappears. Again, there are plenty of usages of Gouge, just as if we had a ranged slow or an AOE stun in the base kit, but are they core for rogues to feel rogue? Not really.

Is it good in some PVP sitatuations? Yes. Is it usable in all forms of rogue play? Not really.

2: Ohh yeah, because incapacitation is sooo much more different than stuns, when it comes to playing rogue xD Saying, that Gouge is different from the normal ass stunbot because you can't burst when its on, is making a storm out of a gust of wind. Its just as blind, a general CC with a long CD. Its just more CC.

[shoegazing]

1: But my own experience with how much of a situational spell it is, is. Try setting yourself in any situation and if you can put in Kidney Shot instead of Gouge, much of its unique usages disappears. Again, there are plenty of usages of Gouge, just as if we had a ranged slow or an AOE stun in the base kit, but are they core for rogues to feel rogue? Not really.

Is it good in some PVP sitatuations? Yes. Is it usable in all forms of rogue play? Not really.

2: Ohh yeah, because incapacitation is sooo much more different than stuns, when it comes to playing rogue xD Saying, that Gouge is different from the normal ass stunbot because you can't burst when its on, is making a storm out of a gust of wind. Its just as blind, a general CC with a long CD. Its just more CC.

It's vastly different. It's a different DR category.

Like Ion Hazzikostas said about Alter Time, "some players won't appreciate its uses, many players probably don't even have it on their bars.... and that's OK."

You are free not to use it. Go wild with your Kidney Shot. Those of us who do know how to get a lot of value from it would like it back.

At the end of the day, Gouge is an integral and historic part of being a Rogue. It's been my "4" keybind since 2005 and I feel like I am missing a limb without it.

[Makemesweat]

Agreed. It was part of the main rotation, so I never understood why the removed it from all specs being able to use it.

[therealstegblob]

Here's my hottake: I don't miss Gouge that much.

They gave Assassination Blind back, and we got Smoke Bomb back. Fuck it, I don't need Gouge. I already do twice the amount of damage of every other class in arenas.

[shoegazing]

Here's my hottake: I don't miss Gouge that much.

They gave Assassination Blind back, and we got Smoke Bomb back. Fuck it, I don't need Gouge. I already do twice the amount of damage of every other class in arenas.

Have you considered rerolling to a Deathknight, Fury Warrior, Ret Paladin, or Demon Hunter with that attitude. #homogenization

[therealstegblob]

Have you considered rerolling to a Deathknight, Fury Warrior, Ret Paladin, or Demon Hunter with that attitude. #homogenization

---A BIRTH WARD IN SMALL OUTLYING VILLAGE OF RIO DE JANEIRO, NINE YEARS AGO---

Ward Doctor: Mr. and Mrs. Shoegazing... I'm sorry.

*The new parents, once beaming with pride at the birth of their son, suddenly find themselves confused. Twinges of alarm begin to reflect on their faces as they regard the doctor's news.*

Ward Doctor: I'm sorry but... we ran some early tests and... it seems your son is too bad at Rogue to play it without Gouge.

*Mrs. Shoegazing remains still for only a moment, her lips trembling. She breaks down, screaming and wailing. Whatever she is saying is rendered incomprehensible. Mr. Shoegazing simply tilts his head back, covering his face with this hands. Though he will never admit to it, he is currently fantasizing about potentially abandoning his new son somehow.*

Mr. Shoegazing: Dios mio...

[shoegazing]

---A BIRTH WARD IN SMALL OUTLYING VILLAGE OF RIO DE JANEIRO, NINE YEARS AGO---

Ward Doctor: Mr. and Mrs. Shoegazing... I'm sorry.

*The new parents, once beaming with pride at the birth of their son, suddenly find themselves confused. Twinges of alarm begin to reflect on their faces as they regard the doctor's news.*

Ward Doctor: I'm sorry but... we ran some early tests and... it seems your son is too bad at Rogue to play it without Gouge.

*Mrs. Shoegazing remains still for only a moment, her lips trembling. She breaks down, screaming and wailing. Whatever she is saying is rendered incomprehensible. Mr. Shoegazing simply tilts his head back, covering his face with this hands. Though he will never admit to it, he is currently fantasizing about potentially abandoning his new son somehow.*

Mr. Shoegazing: Dios mio...

"I'd rather have amazing damage than interesting tools to work with."

"You're bad at Rogue."

LOL ok

[Kemsa]

You cant give Gouge to other specs because its core for Combat/Outlaw gameplay style (Heavy cc while rebuffing) While other specs (i mean assa because sub doesnt exist)
Are more focused on heavy burst damage or heavy doting damage.

Probably the big problem its that we are talking about SPECS or SUB CLASSES in the ROGUE CLASS. You see before Pandaria, there was just 1 type of rogue.... Rogue, and that litttle rogue could train and master diferent talents, from COMBAT TO MASTER ASSASSIN TO SUBTERFUGE AND SUBLEVITY. Your rogue was supposed to be "the best" in what you wanted to be, having every bit of this 3 talent rows.

Now you are a ROGUE WITH LASTNAME, so by doing this, Blizzard tried, and yes THEY FUCKING TRIED to balance every "spec" with their own "Talents" and "Uniqueness" to give different styles of gameplay, but retaining the essence of a Rogue (Stealth combat)

So by this answer, should ALL rogue specs have gouge? no. Why? because its a core element for Outlaw.
Should all rogue specs have poisons? no. Why? because its a core element for Assassination.
Should all rogue specs have shadow dance? no, why? because its a core element of the ninja rogue.

Should all rogue specs have backstab? yes, why? because it "was" a core gameplay of rogues. NOW thats something to take consideration..... specs are not sub classes, but yet, blizzard treats them as they are.

[Jibbler]

You cant give Gouge to other specs because its core for Combat/Outlaw gameplay style (Heavy cc while rebuffing) While other specs (i mean assa because sub doesnt exist)
Are more focused on heavy burst damage or heavy doting damage.

Probably the big problem its that we are talking about SPECS or SUB CLASSES in the ROGUE CLASS. You see before Pandaria, there was just 1 type of rogue.... Rogue, and that litttle rogue could train and master diferent talents, from COMBAT TO MASTER ASSASSIN TO SUBTERFUGE AND SUBLEVITY. Your rogue was supposed to be "the best" in what you wanted to be, having every bit of this 3 talent rows.

Now you are a ROGUE WITH LASTNAME, so by doing this, Blizzard tried, and yes THEY FUCKING TRIED to balance every "spec" with their own "Talents" and "Uniqueness" to give different styles of gameplay, but retaining the essence of a Rogue (Stealth combat)

So by this answer, should ALL rogue specs have gouge? no. Why? because its a core element for Outlaw.
Should all rogue specs have poisons? no. Why? because its a core element for Assassination.
Should all rogue specs have shadow dance? no, why? because its a core element of the ninja rogue.

Should all rogue specs have backstab? yes, why? because it "was" a core gameplay of rogues. NOW thats something to take consideration..... specs are not sub classes, but yet, blizzard treats them as they are.

This spec fantasy has only really existed since Legion and it hasn't been great. Rogue has been worse since they started going to it.
The your comparing apples and oranges with those abilities, All rouges should have gouge, backstab, and poisons. They are key parts of the rogue fantasy. Rogues shouldn't share all the same cooldowns like shadow dance, vendetta, and adrenalin rush. Specs should focus more into one aspect of rogue and not drop all the others. Make assassination more about poisons and bleeds, give them cooldowns to reflect that. Make Sub more about going in and out of stealth and the utility that comes with. Make combat more about going toe to toe with an enemy, give them some retaliation esque defensives.

[shoegazing]

You cant give Gouge to other specs because its core for Combat/Outlaw gameplay style (Heavy cc while rebuffing) While other specs (i mean assa because sub doesnt exist)
Are more focused on heavy burst damage or heavy doting damage.

Probably the big problem its that we are talking about SPECS or SUB CLASSES in the ROGUE CLASS. You see before Pandaria, there was just 1 type of rogue.... Rogue, and that litttle rogue could train and master diferent talents, from COMBAT TO MASTER ASSASSIN TO SUBTERFUGE AND SUBLEVITY. Your rogue was supposed to be "the best" in what you wanted to be, having every bit of this 3 talent rows.

Now you are a ROGUE WITH LASTNAME, so by doing this, Blizzard tried, and yes THEY FUCKING TRIED to balance every "spec" with their own "Talents" and "Uniqueness" to give different styles of gameplay, but retaining the essence of a Rogue (Stealth combat)

So by this answer, should ALL rogue specs have gouge? no. Why? because its a core element for Outlaw.
Should all rogue specs have poisons? no. Why? because its a core element for Assassination.
Should all rogue specs have shadow dance? no, why? because its a core element of the ninja rogue.

Should all rogue specs have backstab? yes, why? because it "was" a core gameplay of rogues. NOW thats something to take consideration..... specs are not sub classes, but yet, blizzard treats them as they are.

Why are you trying to condescendingly explain to us what we already know but disagree with? Your argument falls apart when you consider that I've had Gouge since I was a level 6 Rogue in 2005. Fuck this spec fantasy trash. I signed up to play Rogue not any of these garbage mini classes.

[shoegazing]

> imagine thinking rogue needs more CC

CC is the strength of the class and always has been. We learned Gouge at level 6 at the beginning of WoW.

Read the thread and realize we are asking for Shadow Dance uptime to be reduced (no more charges and cooldown reduction mechanic) so that we will have less Cheap Shot spam and more interesting decisionmaking during gameplay instead of spamming stuns constantly.

Read the thread next time before you make low effort troll posts. We are not asking for "more CC" we are asking for different CC, a return to our classic and iconic toolkit instead of dumb one dimensional stun spam.

The Legion redesign of this class is utterly terrible and a disaster that ruined the class. It should be reverted entirely. Rogue wasn't broken before Legion, it won't be broken when we revert it to pre-Legion. Stop arguing for homogenization and dumbing down.

[shoegazing]

Rogue is fine.

Chill.

Pruned, dumbed down, one dimensional trash with Fisher-Price PurpleParticleEffects ClassFantasyTM is not fine.

Target audience of Legion/BFA Rogue is mouthbreathers with limited mental capabilities. When Celestalon said on the official beta forums for Legion that the goal of the redesign was to make Subtlety Rogue "more accessible for a wider audience" what do you think he was talking about? He was talking about pruning it and dumbing it down to make it easier to play for idiots.

That's the version we got in Legion and BFA, the dumbed down for morons edition. Let's restore the glory of the Rogue class and roll that garbage back.

[Kyphael]

Rogues should have Groin Kick instead. It'd be funnier.

Kicks the groin of an enemy target, incapacitating for 4 sec. Damage will interrupt the effect.

[Kemsa]

Why are you trying to condescendingly explain to us what we already know but disagree with? Your argument falls apart when you consider that I've had Gouge since I was a level 6 Rogue in 2005. Fuck this spec fantasy trash. I signed up to play Rogue not any of these garbage mini classes.

Because Gouge was a part of the "COMBAT" abilities side of the book. So it makes sense that outlaw has the Gouge nowadays.

[Kaver]

Gouge and Feint are two of the most OP abilities in the game. Having Gouge on 15 sec CD combined with an interrupt on 15 sec CD is completely crazy.

Faint and Gouge are two of the main reasons (shroud is obvious) that Outlaw is so popular in MDI. Sadly, Blizzard don't realize this and instead chose to nerf our AOE which is not really OP compared so other classes like DH, Unholy DK, Fury warrior etc.

[shoegazing]

Because Gouge was a part of the "COMBAT" abilities side of the book. So it makes sense that outlaw has the Gouge nowadays.

I signed up to play ROGUE when I created my character

Not shadow weeaboo

Not poison deathknight

And not fucking yahtzee pirate

I signed up to play ROGUE.

[Kaver]

I signed up to play ROGUE when I created my character

Not shadow weeaboo

Not poison deathknight

And not fucking yahtzee pirate

I signed up to play ROGUE.

The game has change a lot since you signed up.

Gouge is a very powerful ability, and sadly I think we will see the toolkit of Rogues be nerfed even more in the future. They already did changes to feint but I wouldn't be surprised if they made it a 45 sec CD at some point.

Blizzard thinks that Outlaw is strong in MDI/M+ because of their AOE, but in reality it is because of:

- 15 sec cd interrupt
- 15 sec cd gouge
- 15 sec cd feint
- 10 sec 100 % parry (almost an immunity to physical damage)
- cloak (immunity to magic damage)
- cheat death (essentially a free combat ress)
- shroud
- blind
- vanish (out of combat free card)
- tricks (all threat to the tanks. Really usefull ability in M+)

THIS IS WHY people play 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI. Not the AOE.

Even if they removed shroud, Rogue would still have by far the best toolkit in the game.

ps. I know you don't care about pve but blizzard have a hard time seperating pve and pvp.

[shoegazing]

The game has change a lot since you signed up.

Gouge is a very powerful ability, and sadly I think we will see the toolkit of Rogues be nerfed even more in the future. They already did changes to feint but I wouldn't be surprised if they made it a 45 sec CD at some point.

Blizzard thinks that Outlaw is strong in MDI/M+ because of their AOE, but in reality it is because of:

- 15 sec cd interrupt
- 15 sec cd gouge
- 15 sec cd feint
- 10 sec 100 % parry (almost an immunity to physical damage)
- cloak (immunity to magic damage)
- cheat death (essentially a free combat ress)
- shroud
- blind
- vanish (out of combat free card)
- tricks (all threat to the tanks. Really usefull ability in M+)

THIS IS WHY people play 3 Outlaw Rogues in MDI. Not the AOE.

Even if they removed shroud, Rogue would still have by far the best toolkit in the game.

ps. I know you don't care about pve but blizzard have a hard time seperating pve and pvp.

Were you asleep when Ion Hazzikostas posted the big class design mea culpa and admitted that separating the specs so much was a mistake, that they shouldn't have taken iconic class abilities and made them spec specific?

Regarding utility, I have to note how sweetly ironic it is that after well over a decade of the PvE crowd ignoring utility while drooling on damage meters and "muh rotation", they finally appear to have woken up and noticed what makes gameplay actually fun and interesting.

I don't know why you're talking about Outlaw because I've made it clear that I don't give a damn about that aberration of a spec, and you're correct as well that I don't give a damn about dungeon racing, but the point is that all classes across the board should have their utility increased in the 9.0 unpruning.