Flying in Warmode is horrendous for actual WPvP

[Lochton]

How do you get the guy that hovers at max ceiling height afk between his ganks?

How do you even know where he is? It difficult enough to find enemy players on a 2D plane with restricted movement, how do you find people in a 3D-open space with no movement restrictions? Can you find a needle in a bale of hay being blown up a shaft by a high powered fan?

Mate, it isn't the bloody chameleon, not that hard to spot another player unless a rogue in stealth. As for max height during flight - VERY - rare that people actually do that, from my own experience, that is.

[Shalaator]

World PvP was never constructed for the strategic mind.

You have a quote stating Blizzard's intention for WPvP design?

[Kauko]

I am all in for Flying Fatigue in War Mode. Like you can fly for some time, a minute or so, over a cliff or on top of some mountain, over a lake etc. and then you get fatigued, like it exist already, and have to land. Wait couple of seconds so that fatigue bar of your mount fills up. That could save the fly in and gank problem.

[Shalaator]

Mate, it isn't the bloody chameleon, not that hard to spot another player unless a rogue in stealth. As for max height during flight - VERY - rare that people actually do that, from my own experience, that is.

Of course it's rare (to you), you never go up there...and why would you...not like you can accomplish anything from max height anyway, except wave at the others whoa re up there.

Now my answer my question:

How do you know where your ganker is! What is your method for finding an enemy player in a 3D flying world with limited vision range.

[JessicaJones]

looool, total non-issue. Flying should be unlocked with gold not 8 stupid rep farms, 8 quest chains and exploration achievements. If you want 40v40, go play AV or raid an enemy city. Not every zone needs to accommodate a 40v40 battle.

[Lochton]

You have a quote stating Blizzard's intention for WPvP design?

Nope, just experience since the existance of World of Warcraft. You have the bare minimum functions of strategy, keep groups from swarming and so on, if we go deeper we will end up losing sight on what we should be aware of - the true strategy. Best strategy you can have in World PvP is to expect the unexpected. Expect flying players, expect multiple raids to counter and more.

[bloodwulf]

Of course it's rare (to you), you never go up there...and why would you...not like you can accomplish anything from max height anyway, except wave at the others whoa re up there.

Now my answer my question:

How do you know where your ganker is! What is your method for finding an enemy player in a 3D flying world with limited vision range.

You sound like someone who wont be happy unless everyone lines up Revolutionary war style and waits for a signal to be thrown to start the battle. Flying is fine, it creates a dynamic world were you have to look on an XYZ axis. Blizzard gives you tools to take people out of flight, and BFA zones have more subterrain and covered areas than most of the previous zones. You can still create choke points, just need to consider a Z access. I still run around in warmode and am having a blast, sorry the other days of a player getting a huge bounty and then hiding while his buddies protect him, now you just need to be creative.

[Lochton]

Of course it's rare (to you), you never go up there...and why would you...not like you can accomplish anything from max height anyway, except wave at the others whoa re up there.

Now my answer my question:

How do you know where your ganker is! What is your method for finding an enemy player in a 3D flying world with limited vision range.

I do go up there for taking screenshots and more, and I hardly find my own gankers there. They are normally just out of damage range - but that means you can still get to them. And how do I find them - uhm.. I look around, if I don't see them, then I expect them to attack as soon as I continue?

[Serenais]

In war mode, lower flight ceiling to the point where larger features become an obstacle and players on flying mounts are reachable by crafty players on the ground. Place anti-air features (or have guards shoot pretty far up) near important faction areas. Limit the number of people flying (per faction). Allow usage of dismounting items while flying. Etc.
If you strictly remove flying from the latest content, you get back to the flying/no flying debacle that we had for the past few years, which definitelly does not significantly skew in the "remove all flying forever" side. Instead, you could get creative and turn it into a feature of organised wpvp. Do you want air scouts? Sure. They were a part of the lore since Warcraft II at the very least, after all. You could add ways to get rid of scouts that you notice. You could add items that would make scouting easier (but those would require being bought for some pvp currency, otherwise everyone would be permanently flying in scout mode), but also items that would counter those, etc. I am aware that a whirlwind won't reach someone 40ft up, but as OP said, "this is not about solo combat". Flying presents an opportunity. Why not get creative with it?

[Lochton]

looool, total non-issue. Flying should be unlocked with gold not 8 stupid rep farms, 8 quest chains and exploration achievements. If you want 40v40, go play AV or raid an enemy city. Not every zone needs to accommodate a 40v40 battle.

Pathfinder unlock is fine, but should only be a one part achievement.

[sylenna]

gg

reading your text takes me back to the good old days of DAoC. cruising the frontiers in groups of eight or laying siege to castles in very big environments? that even made my not-pvp-loving heart melt. the tiniest frame drop suggested at least a few players in the near vicinity and a big drop was a big inc.

taking that style and three big outdoor areas on the continents of azeroth would be so awesome. a contested dungeon like darkness falls would be great, too. but blizzard won't ever do that since even if it would separate this sort of wpvp from loving and caring pvers, it would have to have some justification to implement it. although it is just cruising in the harsh realms beyond the normal game.

man, i will never forget standing alone in front of the big gate to the normal realm. snowy, dark area, a few npcs, some players venturing off into the dark. all of a sudden a midgard raid running towards me and me getting the hell out of there. those were the times..

[Shalaator]

Nope, just experience since the existance of World of Warcraft. You have the bare minimum functions of strategy, keep groups from swarming and so on, if we go deeper we will end up losing sight on what we should be aware of - the true strategy. Best strategy you can have in World PvP is to expect the unexpected. Expect flying players, expect multiple raids to counter and more.

The first things that always comes to mind is X-roads and SS vs TM.

I swear to you that at Xroads alliance players utilized all the towers and hills tops inside of X-roads to their advantage, and retreated to Ratchet and then Booy Bay and used all the various chokes/bridges/valleys of Strangelthorn to retreat away from the Barrens Horde players.

SS vs TM, seemed like the large fights always spilled away from either hub and always ended up being settled at the one of the rivers/canyons for a terrain advantage (usually the attacking force had to retreat and kite as they took losses).

We also knew where the Horde reinforcements would come from at TM or Xroads.

[Lochton]

You sound like someone who wont be happy unless everyone lines up Revolutionary war style and waits for a signal to be thrown to start the battle. Flying is fine, it creates a dynamic world were you have to look on an XYZ axis. Blizzard gives you tools to take people out of flight, and BFA zones have more subterrain and covered areas than most of the previous zones. You can still create choke points, just need to consider a Z access. I still run around in warmode and am having a blast, sorry the other days of a player getting a huge bounty and then hiding while his buddies protect him, now you just need to be creative.

Honestly, Flight in Warmode has made Warmode even more fun. There's another - as you also understand - access of threat.

- - - Updated - - -

The first things that always comes to mind is X-roads and SS vs TM.

I swear to you that at Xroads alliance players utilized all the towers and hills tops inside of X-roads to their advantage, and retreated to Ratchet and then Booy Bay and used all the various chokes/bridges/valleys of Strangelthorn to retreat away from the Barrens Horde players.

SS vs TM, seemed like the large fights always spilled away from either hub and always ended up being settled at the one of the rivers/canyons for a terrain advantage (usually the attacking force had to retreat and kite as they took losses).

We also knew where the Horde reinforcements would come from at TM or Xroads.

The old Cross Roads battle hardly had much strategy other than no overextending, as well as retreating - which is common.

South Share Vs. Tarren Mill ALWAYS started with one side being that zerging part until the other had a barely chance to counter them, applying minimal strategic thought to make the other side pull away enough to make room for a larger wave.

- - - Updated - - -

In war mode, lower flight ceiling to the point where larger features become an obstacle and players on flying mounts are reachable by crafty players on the ground. Place anti-air features (or have guards shoot pretty far up) near important faction areas. Limit the number of people flying (per faction). Allow usage of dismounting items while flying. Etc.
If you strictly remove flying from the latest content, you get back to the flying/no flying debacle that we had for the past few years, which definitelly does not significantly skew in the "remove all flying forever" side. Instead, you could get creative and turn it into a feature of organised wpvp. Do you want air scouts? Sure. They were a part of the lore since Warcraft II at the very least, after all. You could add ways to get rid of scouts that you notice. You could add items that would make scouting easier (but those would require being bought for some pvp currency, otherwise everyone would be permanently flying in scout mode), but also items that would counter those, etc. I am aware that a whirlwind won't reach someone 40ft up, but as OP said, "this is not about solo combat". Flying presents an opportunity. Why not get creative with it?

I love Mechagon's flight restrictions. How I wish it would be in the whole area, dangers from the zone. Beasts or in this case, tech, to make you watch out.

[Nathasil]

Whenever i play Battle for Nazjatar (the only warmode-content where both sides actually have raid groups....sometimes) the lag manages to remove all of the bullets from your list. I cannot "scout" flying because the enemy raid pops in right ontop of me and actions have 3-4 seconds delay....especially with a 40-toon-multiboxer in the zone (yeah, that shit is real...).

Imho Warmode is horribly bad because of Sharding, Lag and fixed factions leading to grouping and one-sided-domination issues all the time. Flying may not be helpful, but Warmode would suck without it just as bad.

[Shalaator]

You sound like someone who wont be happy unless everyone lines up Revolutionary war style and waits for a signal to be thrown to start the battle. Flying is fine, it creates a dynamic world were you have to look on an XYZ axis.

You mean like this:



Yeah bro...this can't happen anymore because of flying.

[bloodwulf]

You mean like this:

SNIP
Yeah bro...this can't happen anymore because of flying.

I see nothing like that, that can not happen because of flying, if anything i see larger battles now due to the rapid response allowed by flying....sorry your personal experience differs so much.

On a side, jesus christ those raid frames take up 1/3 of your screen, amazing you can see anyone at all.

[scubi666stacy]

From a purely PvE point of view, flying is a godsend.

But in terms of world PvP, I would keep flying out of warmode.

Though I would have designed warmode to be completely void of any PvE content except resources and rares, and would make specific PvP objectives instead of world quests. Like, people have to fight for the control of strategical points, as we had in TBC for example. Or some random NPCs of a faction spawning - like a transport caravan - which has either be protected for the course of its route, or destroyed before it reaches its destination. Honestly, there are so many things which could have been specific PvP objectives which would have replaced world quests and would reward some gold or AP or resources plus honor, and for participating in ongoing defenses or attacks, some honour per time ratio, like in a BG.

With the current design, I could not care less about warmode. But I think that it would have been ok not having flying in there.

[Lochton]

You mean like this:



Yeah bro...this can't happen anymore because of flying.

Now, tell me, why can't this happen anymore? You can all still fight in the open. You can all still counter each other. If someone flies behind you, you can oppose that - just like if someone stealthed around you.

[scubi666stacy]

I see nothing like that, that can not happen because of flying, if anything i see larger battles now due to the rapid response allowed by flying....sorry your personal experience differs so much.

On a side, jesus christ those raid frames take up 1/3 of your screen, amazing you can see anyone at all.

Now if we only could have got the teleport beacon system from Argus...

[Soikona]

Here's an alternative:

Removing flying from the latest content, period (in Peace Mode and War mode).

Then you would lose my sub and others. I play to raid, I have to do world content to raid, so with my flying, I can do it quickly and efficiently. I ain’t going back to no flying.

- - - Updated - - -

You mean like this:



Yeah bro...this can't happen anymore because of flying.

What? This happens to me often. Every time at flags for the battle of naz, or at a WQ for an elite kill.