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  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by schwarzkopf View Post
    Classic is a subset of modern WoW - clearly and logically making it the inferior RPG.

    What made 2004 WoW better than 2019 WoW is novelty and uniqueness. The game itself was far worse back then.
    Well, modern wow has softened most of the RPG elements of WoW in favor of the larger MMO scope of things. Ultimately they are far less concerned with traditional RPG elemetns, as they don't typically provide gameplay that the audience at large wants. They decided the game was better suited by lowering the barrier to entry, so to speak. By this, classic checks many more of the very specific RPG elements that retail slowly moved away from. That isn't inherently a bad thing unless those were the kinds of reasons why you enjoyed the game before. I'm not saying retail or classic is a worse game, or that either are terrible at being an RPG/MMO. They just have different overall objectives, and thus one caters more to the RPG elements and one to MMO elements.

  2. #62
    Why is there only 2 english speaking pvp servers for the EU?

    How are they expecting to fit over a 100 000 players on two servers?
    Last edited by Aphrel; 2019-08-13 at 07:50 AM.

  3. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    Well, modern wow has softened most of the RPG elements of WoW in favor of the larger MMO scope of things. Ultimately they are far less concerned with traditional RPG elemetns, as they don't typically provide gameplay that the audience at large wants. They decided the game was better suited by lowering the barrier to entry, so to speak. By this, classic checks many more of the very specific RPG elements that retail slowly moved away from. That isn't inherently a bad thing unless those were the kinds of reasons why you enjoyed the game before. I'm not saying retail or classic is a worse game, or that either are terrible at being an RPG/MMO. They just have different overall objectives, and thus one caters more to the RPG elements and one to MMO elements.
    Can i have list of those traditional RPG elements?

  4. #64
    Hrm. The bickering about name reservation... Do the Worgens not look the same or lower res than the current ones? Anybody with a comparison?

  5. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Can i have list of those traditional RPG elements?
    I guess he means things like reagents (just some examples: Ankhs for shaman resurrection, portal stones for mages, ammunition for hunters) spell ranks (at class trainer), weapon skills, soul shards for warlock spells, wood + flint&tinder to light a fire.

    Classic WoW really had much of those little things, Blizzard moved away from that concept more and more since WotLK.

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    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymacnchz View Post
    Hrm. The bickering about name reservation... Do the Worgens not look the same or lower res than the current ones? Anybody with a comparison?
    You know, there's a thing called YouTube. You go there, type "Worgen" in the search field, and --> Magic!

  6. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Echorausch View Post
    I guess he means things like reagents (just some examples: Ankhs for shaman resurrection, portal stones for mages, ammunition for hunters) spell ranks (at class trainer), weapon skills, soul shards for warlock spells, wood + flint&tinder to light a fire.

    Classic WoW really had much of those little things, Blizzard moved away from that concept more and more since WotLK.
    Yeah but those are not traditional RPG elements, unless adventure games are RPG...

  7. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by jimmymacnchz View Post
    Hrm. The bickering about name reservation... Do the Worgens not look the same or lower res than the current ones? Anybody with a comparison?


    Is this ok or do you want them naked?

  8. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    No, it wasnt. It just was time consuming.
    Not really, back then, the leveling itself was meaningful: You wanted to look on the zone where you glimpsed in it and some imp with an skull totally trashed you. You saw more and more on the world where you couldn't go through before. Having such a slow pace helped to really be able to see the whole zone before you outleveled it.

    I know that is simply not the case for everyone: there are people who simply want to be max level as fast as possible, and that's nothing wrong with this. But i think that leveling could have more meaning, especially when you level up. Making the game that you simply want to be max level as fast as possible is not the right way to build an MMO around.

    I personally would love to see an paragon-system in the next expansion; if they don't want to make leveling not more meaningful, at least a system like this could be done to make further leveling more interresting.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    Actually, some classes were just op. Think about shadow priests in battle grounds. Or warriors.
    Warriors were overpowered in everything. But Warrior was simply the most complete class. You could see how finished every class was. Warrior was probably the first class they finished completely. Shadow only makes fun as long as you don't have gear. After Naxxramas Shadow was trash-tier, since rogue could instant kill them, as do Warriors. Melee was too overpowered.

    On the other end you could also see that there were many classes that they simply didn't finished at all. Paladin for example: I didn't knew that paladin actually gained increased aggro-buff already in vanilla, since they had before seal of wrath for it, but a tank without a taunt, melee without abilities, abilties that worked around physical damage and holy damage; where half of your abilities need one or the other kind of damage, and you can't stack both. Exactly the change of seal of Wrath to the buff shows that they knew that many classes simply weren't finished. And the multiple changes in BC also shows that too.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    Having to buy your skills is gameplay that matters for you? To take a flight point to run to a class teacher is fun to you?

    Well. Not to me.
    I thought the same as you when it was changed. BUT: Yes, there is actually a gameplay-element to it. Not only that leveling meaned more when you leveled slower, every PING had meaning in it. For example when you looked at the trainer and saw that you get the new skill or the new rank at level X. And more of it: when you reached the level, gaining instant gratification is not meaningful. And here yes, when you traveled back, went to the trainer, spend your hard earned money on a new skill, buy it, then finally be able to

    This is the difference between live and classic: Yes, was it more of a hassle: ABSOLUTELY. But exactly this makes an MMO an MMO. You need to go to the trainer in any city, you need to buy it, you need to take a detour from your leveling, but then, when you finally finished it, it simply feels more of an accomplishment.

    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    But competition. And e-Sport! That does not work well with hundreds of skills you cannot balance properly. </sarcasm>
    Exactly. Where do we get when WoW would make fun instead of being forced the path of e-sport and making it the next big hit on twitch. Will never happen, but MAYBE, and think of the poor poor shareholders: esport = money, so grab it on the table. Ok, we ruin the game and make less money through it, but ESPORT!!!!!
    Last edited by Velerios; 2019-08-13 at 01:16 PM.

  9. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Bildur View Post
    Alright I'll bite:

    So if Vanilla was bad, current WoW is bad then ... was "middle" WoW bad too and if so; why are you even playing this game, why not stop 15 years ago when you realized you didn't liked it? lol
    I started playing it because it was the first MMORPG offering at least some content for casual gamers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    Not really, back then, the leveling itself was meaningful
    You can see the whole zone as well nowadays, as you do not outlevel it. Beside that, no, leveling those days was not more meaningful than nowadays. It was about reaching maximum level, and the moment of the first time. The last will not return in a remake. Nowadays, everyone knows everything about world of warcraft. It is not about the game having changed that much, but about the gamers.

    And believe me. People will notice that classic reloaded is not what they expected. Sure, it will begin strong, with millions of players creating a char. Yet.. most, the vast majority, is going to stop playing once they discover how dull leveling was in classic and that you had nothing to do at endgame level if you did not want to commit to a group of players and forget about your real life to a degree.

    Actually WoW Classic even was the worst incarnation of WoW up to now, as it created unemployed nolifers who dwelled in battlegrounds to become grand marshal or who raided Naxxramas with 39 other full time addicts. And this horrible implementation is going to return? With blizzard exactly knowing how many lifes got destroyed with their awkward implementation of time investment mattering that much, combined with the drug-like character of the classic skinner boxes?

    Actually, i see it as a complete misconception to create those addicts again with a classic reboot, repeating the same mistakes again and make people addicts. Blizzard shows their social incompetence on recreating a gameplay of World of Warcraft which leads to a massive amount of gaming addiction and destroyed lifes.

    I really wonder how any of those "developers" is able to look into a mirror without noticing what they are up to create.. again.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    I know that is simply not the case for everyone: there are people who simply want to be max level as fast as possible, and that's nothing wrong with this. But i think that leveling could have more meaning, especially when you level up. Making the game that you simply want to be max level as fast as possible is not the right way to build an MMO around.
    Yeah, but sheer time investment isnt that. And that is all what wow classic was about, with way less lore and quests as you have nowadays, with the need to grind at level 5x if you do not play dungeons to continue leveling. WoW was.. horrible. A drug, created by vicious drug dealers who call themself "game designers". They should really be ashamed of what effects classic had to players those days.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    I personally would love to see an paragon-system in the next expansion; if they don't want to make leveling not more meaningful, at least a system like this could be done to make further leveling more interresting.
    A paragon system would be an interesting idea, but i would repair the dull world content first. Sending thousands of turtles into the water, while having no story told doing so, and that in a hundred incarnations, without any engaging gameplay, is nothing i would call compelling.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    And here yes, when you traveled back, went to the trainer, spend your hard earned money on a new skill, buy it, then finally be able to
    Which just asked you to grind for gold. Nothing else was the outcome.

    Quote Originally Posted by Velerios View Post
    This is the difference between live and classic: Yes, was it more of a hassle: ABSOLUTELY. But exactly this makes an MMO an MMO.
    No, a hassle does not make a game a good game. Effort which is fun does. Well told story and lore does. Flow does. Mystery does. An execution challenge does. A mental challenge does.

    But hassle? Probably in the limited universe of a wow world quest designer, yes. But not in normal players minds.
    Last edited by Fred Skinner; 2019-08-13 at 04:55 PM.
    Rinse and repeat. For the rewards. Send even more turtles into the water.

  10. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Can i have list of those traditional RPG elements?
    Quote Originally Posted by Echorausch View Post
    I guess he means things like reagents (just some examples: Ankhs for shaman resurrection, portal stones for mages, ammunition for hunters) spell ranks (at class trainer), weapon skills, soul shards for warlock spells, wood + flint&tinder to light a fire.

    Classic WoW really had much of those little things, Blizzard moved away from that concept more and more since WotLK.
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    Yeah but those are not traditional RPG elements, unless adventure games are RPG...
    WoW was originally modeled around the D&D style of RPG. These kinds of things, as well as stuff attunements, requiring resist gear for certain encounters, having access to your whole class, but specializing in certain elements, they are akin to traditional D&D RPG elements.

  11. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by themaster24 View Post
    WoW was originally modeled around the D&D style of RPG. These kinds of things, as well as stuff attunements, requiring resist gear for certain encounters, having access to your whole class, but specializing in certain elements, they are akin to traditional D&D RPG elements.
    As a long time player, since second edition of AD&D - lol nope.

    Sure, you get your entire class but still need to specialize like madman. Reagents are almost non existent or stupidly expensive.

    Traditional RPG elements are - playing a role (roleplaying), character growth (even this is not neccessary 100%) and interacting with the story and GM. Everything else is optional.

    Gathering items and using items is a staple only in adventure games. Even telltale game have this

  12. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    As a long time player, since second edition of AD&D - lol nope.

    Sure, you get your entire class but still need to specialize like madman. Reagents are almost non existent or stupidly expensive.

    Traditional RPG elements are - playing a role (roleplaying), character growth (even this is not neccessary 100%) and interacting with the story and GM. Everything else is optional.

    Gathering items and using items is a staple only in adventure games. Even telltale game have this
    WoW was modeled after it, not copy and pasted, just like most MMO's of the time. D&D is where many Western RPG's took their influence. Classes require certain items to be able to perform certain task, this is akin to needing shaman needing Ahkn's, Priest needing candles, etc. The difference is, WoW made them be consumed on use, as they adjusting for an MMO format. D&D had more in depth class advancement, WoW had to reign that in for the MMO setting, but you still have that overall class/specialization identity, something retail does not have.

    When I'm talking about traditional RPG elements, I'm talking about the subtle nuances that fleshed things out. There were reasons your character could use this ability, cast this spell, act this way, and so on. Not to say that this is a better method than retail, as they are just two different approaches to playing the game.

  13. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Pakheth View Post
    The new upright running animations are a huge upgrade. No more bobbing up and down like a maniac.
    run animations of classic are 1 of the 2 main reasons for classic for me.

    no longer bouncing anime unrealistic idiot characters. and no longer motion sickness cause of it.

  14. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    You mean doing it during working hours for the Blizz team, rather than them dragging everyone in on weekends? No, it's not idiotic. It's much easier for them to do it during the week when they have all of their staff where they need to be, rather than trying to get everyone in during non-working hours (which is easier said than done when people plan things of their own during their non-working hours, sometimes things you can't expect or force people to cancel). If kids/teenagers are taking up the "good" names, then they're truly not that good in the first place imo.
    So you as a player, are defending the video game company because it would rather make sure its work force has a singular weekend off instead of having them work one Sunday out of the year to provide a game service for its loyal customers? As if working on weekends now and day is unheard of and ridiculous, especially in the tech business. And I created my names at like 11 PM last night, pretty sure Blizzard's entire work force weren't working last night at 11 PM to make sure I was able to reserve my names, most of the work is automated. And not every kid/teenager is a moron, but the fact only people fitting the description of children/teenagers/unemployed had first dibs is more of the principle of a bad move than whether or not I actually got no names I wanted, which is irrelevant to you because you'll disagree anyway.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Amerissis View Post
    I get up at 5.30 and still had time to reserve a name at midnight (ok, I didn't, because I don't care, but I could have). If you really wanted a common name, you could have made it work for this one time.
    I reserved my name at 11 PM last night. I got home like 6:30 from work and didn't rush to my PC to reserve a name instead of eating dinner, showering and watching some TV to unwind. I wouldn't wake up at 5:30 AM to reserve video game character name, I'd rather sleep until 7:45. Just because I don't care enough to bend over backwards around a work day to make sure I get first dibs doesn't mean criticizing their day of choice isn't stupid. If it had been Saturday or Sunday, I could have had a shot at first dibs.

  15. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Aliven View Post
    As a long time player, since second edition of AD&D - lol nope.

    Sure, you get your entire class but still need to specialize like madman. Reagents are almost non existent or stupidly expensive.

    Traditional RPG elements are - playing a role (roleplaying), character growth (even this is not neccessary 100%) and interacting with the story and GM. Everything else is optional.

    Gathering items and using items is a staple only in adventure games. Even telltale game have this
    You can`t be a too long time player if you can`t see the similarities..The armor and weapon restricitions per class, the restricitions of race/class combos...Just shouting and crying out loudly: I came from D&D...Crushed spaceship? "The FSS Beagle was a Space Ship from the Galactic Federation that got lost during a miss-jump and ended up in Mystara Space. Due to technical problems, it crashed on the Planet. It landed in what later became known as the Valley of the Ancients, south of Blackmoor. The Ship itself was referred to as the City of the Gods." from the 80`s....

    The word what you looking for is "influenced"...obviously not used 1:1, but the similarities are there...too many and too much of them

    BTW your description about traditional RPG...nah, it`s the acting as actor...playing a role and interacting with the story and GM (Director) As D&D was the first full tabletop RPG funny to say, it is not traditional...

  16. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    So you as a player, are defending the video game company because it would rather make sure its work force has a singular weekend off instead of having them work one Sunday out of the year to provide a game service for its loyal customers? As if working on weekends now and day is unheard of and ridiculous, especially in the tech business. And I created my names at like 11 PM last night, pretty sure Blizzard's entire work force weren't working last night at 11 PM to make sure I was able to reserve my names, most of the work is automated. And not every kid/teenager is a moron, but the fact only people fitting the description of children/teenagers/unemployed had first dibs is more of the principle of a bad move than whether or not I actually got no names I wanted, which is irrelevant to you because you'll disagree anyway.

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    I reserved my name at 11 PM last night. I got home like 6:30 from work and didn't rush to my PC to reserve a name instead of eating dinner, showering and watching some TV to unwind. I wouldn't wake up at 5:30 AM to reserve video game character name, I'd rather sleep until 7:45. Just because I don't care enough to bend over backwards around a work day to make sure I get first dibs doesn't mean criticizing their day of choice isn't stupid. If it had been Saturday or Sunday, I could have had a shot at first dibs.
    Of course I am. It involves more external forces that go beyond Blizzard that would also require their time to be rescheduled, it’s unreasonable. There’s zero harm in waiting until a working weekday where the people who are needed will be where they’re supposed to. I guess you’ve never had to deal with logistics when it comes to business, right? It’s a no brainer. It’s how they’ve always done it, it’s why they have maintenance during the beginning of the week and it’s why patch and launches occur during the same time too. There’s no reason for them to change that.

  17. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Of course I am. It involves more external forces that go beyond Blizzard that would also require their time to be rescheduled, it’s unreasonable. There’s zero harm in waiting until a working weekday where the people who are needed will be where they’re supposed to. I guess you’ve never had to deal with logistics when it comes to business, right? It’s a no brainer. It’s how they’ve always done it, it’s why they have maintenance during the beginning of the week and it’s why patch and launches occur during the same time too. There’s no reason for them to change that.
    I work in banking and earlier this year after we bought another bank, and converted to their system, guess what? When we got all the new printers, computers, and software, we had to come in on Sunday for a couple hours to test it all and make sure it was good to go on Monday. We didn't inconvenience customers further by deciding to do it Monday morning, we came in on Sunday to test it out. It's not an alien idea.

  18. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    I work in banking and earlier this year after we bought another bank, and converted to their system, guess what? When we got all the new printers, computers, and software, we had to come in on Sunday for a couple hours to test it all and make sure it was good to go on Monday. We didn't inconvenience customers further by deciding to do it Monday morning, we came in on Sunday to test it out. It's not an alien idea.
    Of course, but it’s not a massive change like that is it. It’s another launch, something they’ve done plenty of times with a certain model and strategy. It makes zero sense for them to change that when it effects very little.

  19. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by THEORACLE64 View Post
    Of course, but it’s not a massive change like that is it. It’s another launch, something they’ve done plenty of times with a certain model and strategy. It makes zero sense for them to change that when it effects very little.
    Did they ever do a name reservation? Even back in 2004? I don't think so, correct me if I'm wrong if you played Vanilla. If not, then this was the first time they ever had to host a "name reservation." Sure, it's easier to not inconvenience their work staff by doing it on a traditional work day, assuming it's even a lot of work at all considering people were reserving names well into the night presumably long after work hours when there was no one from Blizzard even at offices (meaning much of it is automated), but by doing so they're essentially inconveniencing all of their 18-34 customer base instead. A vast majority of us were at our jobs. But whatever, it's no skin off their nose if they do it at the most goofball time frame for their most loyal customer base, but it doesn't mean they're immune from criticism from those of us that might have wanted first crack at our favorite names that likely went to the High School Junior that doesn't have to support himself and is just home on summer vacation.

    Maybe it's just sour grapes since I was literally on vacation for two weeks and name reservation landed exactly on my first day back to work, but it still sounds like bullshit to me.

  20. #80
    Quote Originally Posted by Kyphael View Post
    Did they ever do a name reservation? Even back in 2004? I don't think so, correct me if I'm wrong if you played Vanilla. If not, then this was the first time they ever had to host a "name reservation." Sure, it's easier to not inconvenience their work staff by doing it on a traditional work day, assuming it's even a lot of work at all considering people were reserving names well into the night presumably long after work hours when there was no one from Blizzard even at offices (meaning much of it is automated), but by doing so they're essentially inconveniencing all of their 18-34 customer base instead. A vast majority of us were at our jobs. But whatever, it's no skin off their nose if they do it at the most goofball time frame for their most loyal customer base, but it doesn't mean they're immune from criticism from those of us that might have wanted first crack at our favorite names that likely went to the High School Junior that doesn't have to support himself and is just home on summer vacation.

    Maybe it's just sour grapes since I was literally on vacation for two weeks and name reservation landed exactly on my first day back to work, but it still sounds like bullshit to me.
    It's still essentially opening of the servers though, which will always have a large influx of people logging on. Things did break a little and they fixed them pretty quick, but they still need the support of their staff and external staff (such as the company that hosts their data servers in the U.S. and EU) to be ready. It's much, much easier to coordinate that on days where they know people will be working - especially as it's the summer period as well.

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