No Ret Pallies

[Keelya]

What utility does a Ret pally bring?

As I said before, Ret palas are the best Nightfall users, you can keep JoW up, extra blessings (and guarantee salvation on the raid), an extra dispell and have an extra DI. And you might say "oh but you can bring an holy paladin and still have all that except the Nightfall debuff" which is true but you can have more healer diversity and bring more druids can that insta rezz and priests while still retaining all the Paladin blessings and everything that I mentioned earlier. How is that bad?

[arkanon]

As I said before, Ret palas are the best Nightfall users, you can keep JoW up, extra blessings (and guarantee salvation on the raid) and have an extra DI. And you might say "oh but you can bring an holy paladin and still have all that except the Nightfall debuff" which is true but you can have more healer diversity and bring more druids can that insta rezz and priests while still retaining all the Paladin blessings and everything that I mentioned earlier. How is that bad?

So just to be clear, your only reason for bringing a ret pally is to be able to bring more healers that are not holy pally?

[Monster Hunter]

OK, but, again, to what ratio? If I'm bringing a Ret to a dungeon, I want DPS, not off heals. Is the DPS so bad that content is not beatable? Or is it just slower than optimal?

think they hybrid tax was said to be 10%, not massively sure on that but i remember that number getting thrown around once when the topic was brought up.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Hybrid_Tax

but the hybrid tax is essentially why pala's were so shafted in vanilla and it was removed by wotlk as a concept. turns out the ofset of having off heals wasnt worth losing the dps from a dps spot.

[arkanon]

think they hybrid tax was said to be 10%, not massively sure on that but i remember that number getting thrown around once when the topic was brought up.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Hybrid_Tax

but the hybrid tax is essentially why pala's were so shafted in vanilla and it was removed by wotlk as a concept. turns out the ofset of having off heals wasnt worth losing the dps from a dps spot.

Im sorry but this is just not true, at least not entirely. Yes, the hybrid tax was PART of the issue, but again, we are not talking about a 10% difference between a mage and a ret pally - we are talking an 80% difference.

[prwraith]

More a comment on the childish grammatical format you chose to use for emphasis.

Ah excuse the modern usage. I suppose it makes slightly more sense though, than commenting on only 4 words from a post, and then feeling the need to bold those 4 words no?

Like slightly overkill :P

[Monster Hunter]

As I said before, Ret palas are the best Nightfall users, you can keep JoW up, extra blessings (and guarantee salvation on the raid), an extra dispell and have an extra DI. And you might say "oh but you can bring an holy paladin and still have all that except the Nightfall debuff" which is true but you can have more healer diversity and bring more druids can that insta rezz and priests while still retaining all the Paladin blessings and everything that I mentioned earlier. How is that bad?

debuff limit

[Keelya]

So just to be clear, your only reason for bringing a ret pally is to be able to bring more healers that are not holy pally?

Yes, because that will increase the overall raid's utility. You will have more rebirths, a 20% spell damage boost proc for every caster in the raid, every blessing , more dispells and one more DI because believe it or not, doing a corpse run consumes a lot of time in old raids.

Honestly, I do not see many serious cons. But that's my point of view.

[Keelya]

debuff limit

It will get increased in time to 16, which makes room for more debuffs to get in

[Monster Hunter]

Im sorry but this is just not true, at least not entirely. Yes, the hybrid tax was PART of the issue, but again, we are not talking about a 10% difference between a mage and a ret pally - we are talking an 80% difference.

yea ret got hit the hardest by the hybrid tax but i do have a memory of the 10 % being floated around as the "target", might have been from a QA or interview around the time.

but ret in particular of all the hybrids was especially gash.

you may find the odd nice group who dosn't give a fuck / out-gears the content enough anyway/ or is just naive to group with, but.....its not worth it, you're just making shit harder than in needs to be and not the good hard the frustrating rejection hard. rolling ret and your basically opting into a constant up hill battle against both the game and the player base to be accepted and all, just avoid it and role something else that looks fun, don't waste your £9 a month more than you all ready are.

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It will get increased in time to 16, which makes room for more debuffs to get in

not with 40 raiders, it failed to fix the problem then so its highly unlikely to do much 2nd time round, with 40 raiders those 16 slots filled up just as fast as 8 did.

this is your 16 debuffs:

Curse of Shadow
Curse of the Elements
Curse of Recklessness
Sunder Armor or Expose Armor
Faerie Fire
Annihilator
Nightfall
Improved Shadow Bolt
Shadow Weaving
Shadow Word: Pain
Mind Flay
Winter's Chill
Demoralizing Shout
Hunter's Mark
Seal of Light
Corruption

as for palas being bis for applying nightfall... that just wasnt the case, most did it because they were redundant as actual dps and it was a job (until naxx when hunters did it) hgihest up time came from hunters and warriors spamming wing clip and hamstring, but you really wanted them doin the dps a ret just cant, hord had it good with seal twisting shamans giving them something extra to do.

Retpals have command which has 7ppm. Plus HoJ trinket from BRD.

That’s 17 swings per minute. 7 of them will be command procs. Every 2 minutes HoJ will swing.

That’s 24.65~ swings per minute which translates into 1 extra ppm.

so it wasnt so much that they were the best at it getting up time, more they were completely redundant in the raid except to provide buffs so keeping up nightfall was just something useful the could do between bufing.

[taishar68]

Did you never play Vanilla? cause unlike the current version, there are a lot of support roles in vanilla that dps will be doing in dungeon besides dps such as cleansing/decursing/kiting/slowing/interrupting & stunning and yes especially off heals pretty consistently lol.

We were running "stealth" runs in vanilla with 3 druid 2 rogue combos with the druid dps offhealing most fights. pretty fringe example but yea its been a long fucking time to remember specifics.

I did, but only Horde side, and I wasn’t deep into the guts of the game. I also don’t think the group you’re referring to will be very common, I think most people will play it traditionally. Time will tell.

[arkanon]

yea ret got hit the hardest by the hybrid tax but i do have a memory of the 10 % being floated around as the "target", might have been from a QA or interview around the time.

but ret in particular of all the hybrids was especially gash.

you may find the odd nice group who dosn't give a fuck / out-gears the content enough anyway/ or is just naive to group with, but.....its not worth it, you're just making shit harder than in needs to be and not the good hard the frustrating rejection hard. rolling ret and your basically opting into a constant up hill battle against both the game and the player base to be accepted and all, just avoid it and role something else that looks fun, don't waste your £9 a month more than you all ready are.

Oh sorry mate, you are totally right about Blizzard saying the Tax was 10%, i remember that number too, so i wasnt trying to correct you there. My language wasnt the best, what i was TRYING to say is that there were plenty of OTHER issues that caused Ret to be as terrible as it was, and the removal of the 10% tax wouldnt have suddenly made them competitive.

[Big Thanks]

@Monster Hunter

Nightfall is available on phase 1?

[Monster Hunter]

@Monster Hunter

Nightfall is available on phase 1?

Don't know. Haven't looked more the superficially into the phases because I'm not that interested in playing it. All I know is the general stuff they said is in each phase, I was a reluctant holy pala during vanilla so I essentially come from a point of all the arguments I had and was given as to why I wasn't allowed to be a holy avenger and instead had to wear a dress and sit at the back.

Not gonna lie I hold more than my fair share of resentment towards vanilla specifically because of how I was treated as a wee 16 year old who just wanted to be a paladin like in the story's and not a buff bot and heal bitch.

As such after sticking with raiding up till aq 20 I jacked it in to role play in Eastern plague lands untill tbc when I found a niche crappy guild that would let me raid as dps as long as the shammy turned up to give me windfury totem.

Oh the bloody vengeance I reaped on the shitty wow community in that wrath pre patch on the BGs and World pvp.... That was a sweet sweet time, all those elitist fucks ate some mud when I got my wings out.

[Big Thanks]

Oh the bloody vengeance I reaped on the shitty wow community in that wrath pre patch on the BGs and World pvp.... That was a sweet sweet time, all those elitist fucks ate some mud when I got my wings out.

A friend of mine mained a Paladin in wrath and in our "discussions" i said to him many times Paladins were Overpowered in Wrath of the Lich King.
He replied every single time i was wrong and that Rogues (me) were the ones overpowered.
So he made a Rogue to prove me he was right.

He /dueled a random Paladin in front of me

I shit you not...the Paladin won...without a single weapon equipped. Without a friggin weapon!

Me and my friends ROFLED so hard that day

[Monster Hunter]

Oh sorry mate, you are totally right about Blizzard saying the Tax was 10%, i remember that number too, so i wasnt trying to correct you there. My language wasnt the best, what i was TRYING to say is that there were plenty of OTHER issues that caused Ret to be as terrible as it was, and the removal of the 10% tax wouldnt have suddenly made them competitive.

Yea totaly, there was mechanical issues, and gear issues with pala as dps, spell power being a big pain.

On top of that it was also just very very boring to play, the old meme of paladins being able to fit a fap in between kills wasnt far off, I wasn't in wow beta but I heared alot of there mess was down to a last minute redesign just befor release and that essentially paladin was unfinished till tbc.

If I could go back in time the one thing I'd change in my life is rolling a warrior instead of a paladin. I fell into the trap of not knowing anything about the game and picking my class based on what I knew of the architypes from other fantasy not know how far off and screwed up the paladin in wow was and I never rerolled simply because I was both lazy and didn't want to have to re do all those 60 levels and some vain hope pala would get fixed.

To any one thinking of rolling paladin I honestly say don't, the imigary might be cool but the reality is a life of boring gameplay, struggling to find a group and being the but of the wow community's jokes. And also being made to wear a dress for a good while.....

Eod your paying monthly for this, so make sure what you do you find fun. And for me being treated like shit and auto attacking stuff to death was not fun.

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A friend of mine mained a Paladin in wrath and in our "discussions" i said to him many times Paladins were Overpowered in Wrath of the Lich King.
He replied every single time i was wrong and that Rogues (me) were the ones overpowered.
So he made a Rogue to prove me he was right.

He /dueled a random Paladin in front of me

I shit you not...the Paladin won...without a single weapon equipped. Without a friggin weapon!

Me and my friends ROFLED so hard that day

Paladin was so OP, especially in the pre patch, I hadn't a scrap of arena gear and I was one shotting multiple people during wings in BGs

It was broken, but something about it was just after so many years being the pahriahs of wow.

Years of being the heal bitch and buff bot and Finaly paladins put the fear of God into other classes, when you heard avenging wrath pop that was when your pants filled.... Good Times.

I honestly wouldn't be suprised if they made us that op for while on purpose as an almost apology for the years of being dirt.

[Kemsa]

#nochanges
For Dps
just play rogue, hunter or mage. For Easy mode
Normal mode Warrior, warlock, shaman
hard mode Druid and paladin

you want pve? alliance easy mode // horde for a maybe more harde mode
for pvp, forsaken, orc, tauren// human, gnome

and good luck if you take the hard mode of dps....... at least you can heal xD

[arkanon]

Yea totaly, there was mechanical issues, and gear issues with pala as dps, spell power being a big pain.

On top of that it was also just very very boring to play, the old meme of paladins being able to fit a fap in between kills wasnt far off, I wasn't in wow beta but I heared alot of there mess was down to a last minute redesign just befor release and that essentially paladin was unfinished till tbc.

If I could go back in time the one thing I'd change in my life is rolling a warrior instead of a paladin. I fell into the trap of not knowing anything about the game and picking my class based on what I knew of the architypes from other fantasy not know how far off and screwed up the paladin in wow was and I never rerolled simply because I was both lazy and didn't want to have to re do all those 60 levels and some vain hope pala would get fixed.

To any one thinking of rolling paladin I honestly say don't, the imigary might be cool but the reality is a life of boring gameplay, struggling to find a group and being the but of the wow community's jokes. And also being made to wear a dress for a good while.....

Eod your paying monthly for this, so make sure what you do you find fun. And for me being treated like shit and auto attacking stuff to death was not fun.

Yeah, i was "lucky" in that i have always played warrior / berzerker type melee classes in rpg games, so when i hit vanilla, i rolled a warrior. But like the vast majority of people, i had no idea if i had rolled the "right" class or not until well into vanilla.

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#nochanges
For Dps
just play rogue, hunter or mage. For Easy mode
Normal mode Warrior, warlock, shaman
hard mode Druid and paladin

you want pve? alliance easy mode // horde for a maybe more harde mode
for pvp, forsaken, orc, tauren// human, gnome

and good luck if you take the hard mode of dps....... at least you can heal xD

Maybe i missed the ppl asking for changes, but i wasnt aware anyone was? i think there is a huge part of this "community" in for a hell of a shock at endgame though, assuming they make it that far. Everyone's experience is different, but anyone claiming raiding as ret or even 5 mans as ret was the norm, or anything other than the extreme exception to the rule, is just wrong.

I dont think anyone is claiming that it is impossible for you to get carried from start to finish through the content, but lets be very clear about one thing - it is very much a carry. If you have friends happy to do that, which i did in vanilla and still do to this day, then thats great! but you are getting carried, and doing well less than 50% of the output of a real dps class.

[Ninjaturtle]

They are pretty bad, sure ya if you run with people who don't care and will carry go for it but if you want to feel like you are contributing don't even bother. You can group with friends but after that people will avoid inviting you. I don't think it will be worth being rejected from groups if you try to pug. The groups do have a right and reason to reject you. So don't get butthurt if they do, you were warned and chose to play the class.

[Sastank]

Cool name. Maybe I should have put old school in my name on here and made some outrageous and false claims too.

[Kemsa]

@arkanon what Ninjaturtle just said.

IN FACT, you can do a better job as a Protection Paladin... using a two handed weapon, blessing of salvation and consecration and then having points on the Protection tree, rather than the Retribution tree.

You can get carried. Yes. But you literally will be leeching. Instead of being usefull and helpfull. Its the same with Druids, Balance druids its not as good as retail (yeah) and feral its just.... a tank. But resto its actually really good... only if you bring 1... 1!!!!! and for some reason, resto its better for pvp than feral and balance... really.

Well we also shouldnt be talking with "class spec names" all the classes are all specs on classic, you just chooses what points to use.

So DPS paladin? not worth the effort.. unless you want to RP or you have very very good friends.