Official High Elf Discussion Megathread

[Obelisk Kai]

Sorry for the delay, been a bit busy but I felt I would condense and respond to this post.

I feel a tremor of terror at what might have been had you not condensed it. Yet we are seemingly locked into this now and so, onwards.

Are skin tone and hair color all that is needed to differentiate? Ears as well? Silhouette-wise the Nightborne are almost similar to the Night Elves, with some minor differences as noted here. All of those could be easily applied to the High Elven exiles with the difference explained away by their long withdrawal from the Sunwell and/or their reliance on other sources of Arcane energies.

Truthfully? Yep, skin tone and hair colour are the easiest road towards aesthetic differentiation. Of the Allied races we have so far, Void Elves, Nightborne, Dark Iron Dwarves, Lightforged Draenei AND Mag'har Orcs derive their primary aesthetic differentiation from having unique skin tone palettes. Underpinning these unique skin tone palettes of course are the lore rationales as to why they are unique, from being blasted by void energy for the Void Elves to bathing in the energies of the Nightwell for the Nightborne to simply being a characteristic of a group that was separated from others of their species across several centuries and multiple generations in the case of the Dark Iron Dwarves. They go hand in hand, the aesthetic differences are justified by the lore and help to contribute to the greater sense of differentiation between the parent race and their 'child'.

The bar IS extremely low in terms of what is required as a minimum level of differentiation and that is pertinent because Alliance High Elves do not meet it and cannot meet it due to being physically identical to Blood Elves. Your suggestion that a proposed difference could be explained away by their long withdrawal from the Sunwell doesn't work because they aren't cut off from the Sunwell. This is a persistent misconception of how the Sunwell works, even Matthew Rossi in his recent Blizzard Watch article fell pray to the same mistake.

You do not need to visit the Sunwell in order to partake of it's energies. Blood of the Highborne confirmed that the connection to the Sunwell is metaphysical and unaffected by time, space or even dimensions. The pilgrimage undertaken by the Elves, both Blood Elf AND Alliance High Elf, is an expression of reverence for the central sustaining aspect of their race. Secondly, 'In the Shadow of the Sun' confirmed that the Alliance High Elves can feel the well again post restoration. The entire point of the restoration of the Sunwell at the end of TBC, was to save the Elves by providing them with a source of purified magic for their incurable addiction. Alliance High Elves were not immune to the ravages of withdrawal, in fact the entire philosophical basis of the initial split was predicated on how to deal with their withdrawal symptoms. There is absolutely no evidence in game or even in terms of sheer common sense as to why the Alliance High Elves would refuse to draw upon the sanctified, safe source of magic it provides.

Being reliant on other sources of arcane energy is therefore redundant. Even were it a path that would be followed, it means that differentiation is achieved by blasting a group of thalassian elves with magic till they mutate into something different from a standard Blood Elf. Again, they have literally just done this in creating Void Elves and I think I am on safe ground in saying Blizzard is exceptionally unlikely to repeat themselves. That, and to qualify as an Allied race the result would have to look different from a Blood Elf and so would be unacceptable to the pro high elf hardcore.

Again, you are unnecessarily hung up on the idea of being their being identical when part of the many models offered all add functional differences between the Blood Elves and High Elven exiles - some of which go well beyond the Void Elf and Blood Elf differentiation as well as the Nightborne and Night Elf differentiation. Personally I don't even consider this necessary, but it could certainly help.

And I will keep going back to the fundamental difference between the Void Elves and those other propositions. That the differences between the Void Elves and the Blood Elves are non replicable in lore. You cannot be a tentacled, blue skinned Blood Elf. Nor can you be a fair skinned, blonde haired Void Elf. The suggestions offered by the pro High Elf community always come down to tattoos or freaky hairstyles, none of which is off limits to a Blood Elf.

Actually I was saying that they wouldn't need to be differentiated, at least not to the degree you seem to require - and their story underscores that due to their social schism they are now a different peoples with different ideologies and a different social structure now (due to their exile status). Claiming that is the "sole differentiating" feature vastly underscores how much of a huge thing that actually is. I mean, the only thing that differentiates the two flavors of Pandaren as a minor different in philosophy - not even a defining social upheaval in their past, they literally chose the faction that suits their personality. Not that I think the Pandaren model is one to emulate, either; but the fact that it exists somewhat breaks your reliance on this "small difference" as a sticking point. Physical differentiation is easy to explain away through a number of previously-mentioned ideas, and it wouldn't have to be severe or far-fetched to be applicable.

A social schism is not enough to call them different peoples. Are there now two nations within England as a result of Brexit, the leavers and the Remainers? Are there two distinct nations within the United States with Democrats and Republicans? That isn't how it works. If the Alliance High Elves have any narrative at all, it is their exile from Quel'thalas and the contempt the rest of their people hold them in. They are NOT a distinct people, they are exiles.

The Pandaren fail as a point of comparison because it a false analogy between the social situations. The Tushui and Huojin philosophies are embraced by a minority of the Pandaren population on the wandering island, who themselves are a minority of the total Pandaren population of the world with the vast majority living on Pandaria. The Pandaren are a truly neutral race with the Tushui and the Huojin making up a tiny percentage of the population of that race. In contrast, around 90% of the remaining thalssian elves are Blood Elves. The high elf race has made it's choice. And whereas it is easy to imagine Tushui and Huojin practitioners returning to Pandaren areas and proselytizing their people for new recruits (and thus keep the Pandaren relevant within both factions), Alliance High Elves have no such freedom to return to Quel'thalas nor a mostly neutral population to talk to. In fact, in 8.2 the only potential division we saw within the Blood Elves was between pro Saurfang as expressed by Lor'themar and pro Sylvanas as the Sunreaver Magister showed.

The existence of the prior 'Pandaren model' does not break my reliance upon small differences. That model failed. There is plentiful evidence that it failed. Blizzard was excited to try the idea of a neutral race as J.Allen Brack said, but between Ghostcrawler saying in 2013 he wasn't a fan of how it worked out, the lack of any neutral races since and Ion Hazzikostas ruling out Alliance High Elves as an Allied race (when they were definitely considered) on the grounds of the impact on faction diversity we can see that they regard it as something of a mistake.

Making a mistake is not a license to repeat that mistake in the future, albeit on a grander and far more damaging scale. It is a lesson not to repeat that mistake.

It's not a great concern because it's been done - you only rationalize it with a number of loose and ill-fitting justifications when the more obvious extension is that both the Nightborne and the Blood Elves provide traditionally Horde and Alliance racial "flavor" to the opposite faction. The Nightborne give Night Elven history, lore, and story to the Horde, and the Void Elves do the same for the Alliance as concerns the Blood Elves. But because of these justifications the diminution caused by these Allied Races is somehow negated. The refusal to offer the same basic treatment to the High Elven exiles, in light of this, comes away as hypocritical at best and almost spiteful at worst. What you seem to fear has already come to pass, and the proverbial line in the sand has already been adjusted multiple times.

No, it has not been done. They have never taken an existing race and granted it unmodified to the other faction. They have granted variants to the other factions, which is entirely separate. Nightborne are not Night Elves as people conceive of Night Elves. Void Elves are not High Elves as people conceive of High Elves.
There is substantial aesthetic, thematic AND narrative differences between the parent group and the child group.
In terms of thematics, Nightborne are far closer to Blood Elves than they are to Night Elves. Nightborne have nothing of the arboreal, druidic wood elf theme that the Night Elves embody. And Void Elves have nothing of the cultured, urbane 'light elf' theme that defines the Blood Elves (who are the High Elves). Huge components of what can be said to be Night Elf and Blood Elf racial flavour have been removed from them in order to fashion them into their own things. Are the results similar? Of course, that being the entire point of the Allied race system, to provide variants of existing races to players. But similar is not identical, and it is on identical that Alliance High Elves fail.

The point that Alliance High Elves should be added because Void Elves already demolished the faction divide and so it no longer matters is disingenuous and self defeating. Not only because we know Alliance High Elves were rejected because they were identical to Blood Elves...and therefore that the Void Elves that WERE added had a measure of acceptable differentiation, but because to argue that Void Elves are so close to Blood Elves that it renders objections to Alliance High Elves moot can only elicit one response.

That if Void Elves are so close to Blood Elves that they breach the faction wall, then the Alliance has High Elves and should now shut up asking for them.

People cannot simultaneously argue that Void Elves are so close to Blood Elves that the differentiation argument is destroyed and yet still argue that Void Elves are too different from what they wanted. That is pure doublethink.

The Elves in general are unique in this regard, actually; as they've always been spread across the factions based on their various subtypes (4 of them playable now, split pretty much down the middle). An Orc in the Alliance would be an oddity, same as a Human in the Horde - but a given subgroup of Elves? They could apparently go any way, as shown by existing precedent.

I don't think that answer is good enough. The question isn't whether it makes more or less sense, the question is why is it fair that one particular group gets attention over everyone else? An Orc in the Alliance would only be an oddity if Blizzard didn't put in the time to ensure it was not seen as an oddity. A narrative can be constructed that can explain anything that most players will accept. Plentiful people's ideal race is not on their ideal faction after all. And that person who dreams of an Orc on the Alliance hasn't really been provided with a 95% match of an Orc within the Alliance recently as those who pine for High Elves have been provided for and yet who still want that last 5%.

As we've already covered, the "developers said so" is not a valid argument when the developer's opinion is being called into question. Narrative distinction already exists, physical distinction can be provided with minimal effort. Just the notion of High Elven exiles becoming available will also obviously push race change services and probably even have an observable positive effect on MAU's. By your own rationale above the idea of playable High Elven exiles is an obvious net boon.

As we may have covered and on which I disagree. Attempting to neuter developer commentary on this topic is an attempt by the pro High Elf community to level the playing field as they have no insights of their own to offer from developers on this topic that support their point of view. Narrative distinction is minimal and, as discussed, could be used to justify other groups with a similar measure of minimal narrative differences such as the Grimtotem and the Defias. Whilst you personally maybe ok with such a scenario, we can at least agree that the chances of such groups ever being added are slim to none, with none being the overwhelmingly likely precentile.
Physical distinction is a good idea, to the point that it was already done and justified using an outside energy source which changed a group of Blood Elves into something new distinct. This of course falls foul of the fact that what the pro High Elf community wants is a High Elf, lore based physical differentiation therefore makes them 'not' a High Elf, as differentiating them from Blood Elves (the High Elf gold standard) makes them less like a High Elf. Hairstyles and tattoos are not physical differentiation. They are hairstyles and tattoos. Your teenage kid may go on a bender down the town and comeback inked and with a mohawk, but they are still your kid and still the same species. And if you feel like it, you can go down and get the same tattos and mohawk yourself.

An impact on MAUs though is one of the dregs of the pro High Elf argument. I am a little surprised you made it. If Blizzard genuinely believes that weakening the differences between the two factions is a bad idea, is hoping that they can be swayed on this point of principle by a small uptick in profits really an idea you hope is true? If they are swayed on a point of principle for profit, why not other points of principle like a more prevalent cash shop or even pay to win features? That's not the kind of developer team you should be hoping exists.

That and, of course, if Alliance High Elves were such a slam dunk in terms of making money, and many pro High Elfers across the years have predicated their belief in the inevitability of Alliance High Elves on the money aspect, why are they constraining themselves from grabbing it? The Allied race system introduction was the perfect time to finally seize it after all these years! On the one hand you could argue that Blizzard believe what they say on faction diversity.
And on the other you can look at Void Elves, THE most popular and successful Allied race, and realize they figured out a way to have their cake and eat it too.

Both the terms "High Elf" and "Blood Elf" have been deeply politicized within the narrative, this is not a disqualifying distinction. The difference in "traditionalism" is actually a differentiating quality in and of itself.

Alliance High Elves are traditional High Elves as well, just ones who live in exile with the Alliance. The Grimtotem are traditional Mulgore Tauren too and they live in exile, but nobody argues they are a different race to the Mulgore Tauren as a result of that exile.
Political/Narrative circumstances are not enough to differentiate some members of a group from other members of the same group to the degree that they can be seen as an entirely distinct group.

That is the developer's position, yes; it is not one I personally agree with however - and I think the developers decided to justify their position with another rationale because the actual one (the story-relevance one) would be a much harder sell and likely generate more player outcry. That it is the reasoning in immaterial, as I've already said multiple times - we all know what actually happened, and we know why the developers said they did as they did, that's not in contest. The developers are not inerrant, and in this case I think they've made an error in judgment and also one of PR optics, but that is neither here nor there. I am also pretty confident that one day the High Elven exiles will be added to the game in a playable sense at some future point - whether as a Void Elven variation, their own Allied Race entirely, or as part of another system (like extended customization options for existing races). Difficult to say how it will come about, but I feel confident it will. Possible too that they stick to their guns and refuse it, but I would say that's comparatively unlikely.

Do not be insulted by this, but that seems like a rationalization of what we know to produce an interpretation that chimes more with your own feelings rather than being based on solid primary evidence. The rejection of Alliance High Elves on the grounds of faction diversity is consistent with the failure of the Pandaren model and the creation of the Void Elves. Whilst your theory is undermined by being contrary to what the developers told us, and can only be true if Ion was lying to us for PR reasons (not impossible, but an argument refuting a developer comment on the grounds the developer could have been lying is not much of a refutation at all), a much stronger case for it would be provided were Void Elves a more natural development within the plot rather than seemingly being sprung on us out of nowhere. Almost as if they were intending Alliance High Elves, rejected them once they twigged they really did undermine faction diversity, and then they rapidly set up a void themed variant that fulfilled the desire for a void aspected race whilst granting a flavour of High Elf to the Alliance.

A Void Elf can never be an Alliance High Elf. High Elf like customizations maybe added to Void Elves, and it may be made more explicit than it already has that Void Elves can turn other Elves into Void Elves, but the end result is still a Void Elf, not an Alliance High Elf.

Extended customization options is code for blue eyes for Blood Elves, a cause I heartily support. That would still be a Blood Elf, someone who at a point in the past absorbed mana from living beings.

With Void Elves on the one hand, and Blood Elves on the other, Blizzard has ample design space with which to work on thalssian elves. A separate allied race for Alliance High Elves predicated solely on their narrative is therefore extremely unlikely.

I would say that's a rationale they've already undermined with their given choices, which makes upholding it curious.

And I would argue it is relatively straightforward to show you are wrong on this, as I have attempted to do so above. The objections of the pro High Elf community should be enough after all. If they say the Void Elf isn't the standard High Elf, and this entire debate continues because they weren't satisifed with the compromise, then who are we to gainsay them?

It actually has been asked for - I've personally seen it myself, although I don't think the demand was overly high. And given the Void Elves are a direct continuation of the Blood Elves it means the Alliance also claims a portion of Blood Elven lore, story, and narrative in turn. This is why the "Faction Identity" argument rings hollow as a denial of High Elven exiles - the "damage" is done, and both the Alliance and Horde have claimed a portion of the other side's story through their respective claims upon the Void Elves and Nightborne.

If damage has been done, which I disagree with, then that is no excuse to cause further damage. The reason damage has not been done is that while the Void Elves are former Blood Elves AND former Alliance High Elves, is that the Void Elves have been wrenched out of the traditional High Elf space occupied by the Blood Elves/Alliance High Elves and set up with their own lore and their own destiny. This has been done by setting them up as void based, diametric opposites to the light based Blood Elves. That is the dichotomy. While they may share a history with the Blood Elves, they have a unique future and purpose.
The Alliance High Elves have no unique future. Not only do they lack the ability to chart their own destiny, but they are physically bound to the same Sunwell that defines the entirety of their civilization.

Developer opinion is not immaterial in the general sense, but it is as a plank of evidence - the opinion of the developers is what is being debated, and so their opinion cannot be used as a self-referential argument to prove itself correct, which is what you've attempted to do multiple times now. Your very argument underscores the notion that the Void Elves are not the High Elven exiles because the Void Elves (again by your own argumentation) are a valid playable extraction whereas the High Elven exiles are categorically not. Therefore, again by your own argumentation, the Void Elves aren't a "95% win" or a even a "5% win." They're a 0% win, because they aren't High Elven exiles. More specifically, they're Blood Elves with a dash of Void flavor, so they're actually twice-removed from the desired target. Insofar as a compromise goes, it's not great. This isn't to tarnish the Void Elves as their own thing, either; on that score they're fine - but when you're wanting X then a big plate of Z isn't going to satisfy that hankering (and it's somewhat foolhardy to claim "Z is close enough" and expect a fan of X to just quiet up).

No, developer opinion is not the subject of the debate. The subject of the debate is the viability of Alliance High Elves as an Allied race. That the perception has grown that people think the opinion of the developers is the actual subject of the debate simply reinforces the weakness and paucity of the pro High Elf case in that they are continually reduced to trying to prove the developers wrong.
In regards to the Void Elves being a failure because they aren't the Alliance High Elves, only a tiny group of people actually care about that distinction. Most people who are vocally upset at Void Elves are upset at them because they are blue skinned and with tentacles, i.e the unique aesthetic and theme. This was proven in the aftermath of the reveal of Void Elves when numerous players who would go on to be active in the pro High Elf community posted numerous threads on the official forums seeking a 'compromise' that would fix Void Elves i.e. High Elf like skin tones. Once it became apparent this wasn't going to happen, in early 2018, these posters then transitioned into the pro High Elf movement which was very active on the forums and increasingly confident of their own momentum until they hit the April 26th Q and A. Some are upset at it not being the High Elf exiles. Those who are genuinely upset by that have provided an intellectual fig leaf to the wider pro High Elf community, many of whom loudly complain about the narrative origin of the Void Elves yet who would have proved perfectly happy to play a Void Elf that looks like a High Elf.

Then ask yourself this - why were the AU Mag'har Orcs used as opposed to the Mag'har Orcs who already exist in the primary continuity on Outland? I agree they were going to be added, it was something of a no-brainer given the long-standing requests for them, so why were they added in the way they were and why from the unpopular AU Draenor of WoD? Narrative is why. There was a story to be told that allowed the Mag'har, *this* specific version of the Mag'har, to be added as playable. I think you have the basic thrust somewhat backwards - the narrative decides the races, not the races deciding the narrative. Just like new classes in this regard - they not inclined to toss in a new class that doesn't fit the theme of the story being explored. Adding the Death Knight class in TBC wouldn't have made a lot of sense. The Allied Races follow the same basic rubric - they're added when the story allows for them, and as such they're a product of the narrative direction in both the micro and macro senses. Narrative added solely to fulfill a race would be threadbare and patchy at best, and the larger narrative arcs are already pre-planned by the developers.

It would be disingenuous to say that all races were chosen first and then the narratives crafted to justify them. Kul Tirans after all were the logical outcome of the Kul Tiran story, yet Blizzard agonised over adding them due to the work they entailed which meant that the possibility existed of us not getting them, despite the story justifying them.

But some Allied races WERE chosen first and a narrative added later to justify them. In most cases, the fans chose them, as with Mag'har Orcs, the long asked for Brown Orcs. The distinction between AU Mag'har Orcs and the Mag'har from Outland doesn't matter in the long run. It didn't matter what storyline they chose to get brown skinned Orcs added as a player option, brown skinned orcs were coming. That they went with the AU Mag'har rather than the Outland Mag'har is a by-product of the story they ultimately decided to tell, but the genesis of the idea was not 'Yrel's army of light nazis', it was 'how do we get brown skinned Orcs into the game'?

Just as the genesis of the Void Elves was 'how to add High Elves into the Alliance' which then rapidly gained the qualifier 'without duplicating Blood Elves'.

Color is not huge differentiation. Void Elves occasionally have tentacles, but usually they do not. The powers wielded by Void elves are not huge differentiation, and constitute 2-3 active racial abilities total. On their face, the Void Elves are essentially blue/purple Blood Elves who joined the Alliance.

This is the critical flaw in the counter-arguments of those who argue Void Elves break the faction boundaries and Alliance High Elves therefore can do no more damage. It fails to distinguish between 'similar' and 'identical'. All Allied races are in some ways similar to their parents. That is the point, the Allied race system allows the use of sub-races. But similar is separate from identical, in that similar implies a degree of difference as well as a large amount of similarity.

Colour may not be a huge differentiation, but it IS a tangible difference. SOME Void Elves may have tentacles, but not a single Blood/Alliance High Elf does. And ALL Void Elves can wield the powers of the void, but only Blood Elf shadow priests (who may now exist in that similar weird lore space Undead Holy Priests and Lightforged Draenei shadow priests exist in...that they don't technically make sense in lore but exist for the purposes of game mechanics) use the void now and not at all in the way Void Elves do.

Alliance High Elves are not similar. They are identical. And an Allied race cannot be justified if the subject is identical to an already available option.

As I said, it is unproven and therefore can't be claimed as a source of differentiation. I agree it makes sense, but my opinion is equally irrelevant here.

Yet as it is a common sense position, I will cite it as a point of differentiation until it is proven not to be the case. It would be entirely inconsistent with all other lore if Void Elves are still able to connect with the Sunwell.

Not if those changes were a unique occurrence to them and unshared with the Blood Elves (in the same manner as the Void Elves transformation). Also, the skin tones of the Void Elves aren't very far from the Kaldorei, either, so they're not "un-Elven" at all really. The Thalassian Elves were purple/blue in hue before they paled due to their severance from the Well of Eternity. And if the High Elven exiles had a similar thing occur to them (either actively or retroactively) you'd have the same case for differentiation completely separate from the Blood Elves.

Which again brings us back to another attempt to have yet another group of elven exiles have something happen to them that changes them physically. I know a lot of the player base isn't really interested in the lore but even they might notice the frequency with which the Elves end up mutating themselves. They had one shot to differentiate thalassian elves within the Allied race system, they chose a void based variant. That is not a well they can plausibly go back to because the result was 95% similar to a Blood Elf rather than 99%. Yes we can debate from here until the game shuts down the chance they would do this but I am going to operate under the assumption that they aren't. Not when alternatives such as allowing Blood Elves to play with Alliance players or Void Elves to get High Elf like skins are possibilities. Your suggestion that such a thing could happen to Alliance High Elves misses the point in that this not what the pro High Elf community really wants.
They want a High Elf, and anything that differentiates an Alliance High Elf from a Blood Elf can only have the result of making them less like a High Elf and they would reject it. And we know this because, as I keep saying, they have done what you said with Void Elves and the hardcore didn't like it.

As for Void Elf skin tones being similar to Kaldorei...no, they aren't. The Kaldorei skin tones are lush, natural and vivid. The Void Elf skin tones are 'unearthly' for the lack of a better word.

Not something you can actually know unless you have access to the future to make this claim objective. The path of the High Elven exiles has equally diverged from that of the Blood Elves due to the schism that impelled them into said exile. If the High Elven exiles choose to sever themselves from the Sunwell (one of the many differentiating narratives discussed) then they'd also sever themselves from the Blood Elves even further.

No, the path of the Alliance High Elf exiles has not equally diverged. The Void Elves have been physically transformed under the influence of a magic whose masters not only whisper to them, but are actively hostile to our reality. Alliance High Elves are political exiles. Nor is there any evidence that a thalassian elf can willingly sever themselves from the Sunwell. The Void Elves have almost certainly been separated because a light based energy source would be incompatible with their void based physiology, their addiction likely sated by a direct connection to the void.
Severance risks long term physical and mental damage, as the Warcraft encyclopedia confirmed. The addiction cannot be willed away, it must be sated. So sure, if they were cut off they would no longer be bound to the light based destiny of the Blood Elves. The timeframe for a true differentiation between them and the Blood Elves to emerge though is likely longer than the timeframe World of Warcraft will encompass though until the game stops getting new content. Perhaps in World of Warcraft 2...for the VERY few who survive the withdrawal and aren't drooling, twitching vegetables I mean.
Within WoW, severance from the Sunwell, if possible, would more likely be a weapon used by the Blood Elves against the Alliance High Elves. Perhaps enough to impel them to become Void Elves?

Given I've already said the Grimtotem could be cultivated as their own Allied Race with the right circumstances, this particular argument isn't of great weight to me nor do I think it's very applicable in the general sense.

Yes you've already said that, but Grimtotem really aren't actually enough to be an Allied race in their own right given the reasons we have for the rejection of Alliance High Elves i.e. they are already playable. The fundamental point is that just as Grimtotem aren't a viable allied race...and they aren't...Alliance High Elves aren't either.

"The Horde has the High Elves they want?" That's an odd rationale as I don't recall choosing this at any point. I mean, the Blood Elves were announced back in TBC and sort of came out of left field for a lot of people - still do, really. I think this particular plank of your argumentation exposes the strong personal bias you have as concerns this topic. Not that bias is a bad thing by any means, but I think it makes it difficult to look on this debate with due objectivity. For example, I can clearly say that the High Elven exiles, as they currently exist, lack the gameplay differentiation I would prefer in a playable race using either the traditional or Allied Race models. My main talking point is that this differentiation can be easily provided, either retroactively or proactively with a suitable narrative lead-in. Your argument is that it cannot be done, mostly because it wasn't done (which I readily claim is a non-argument) and then moving the goalpost for *every* theoretical model to do it proactively to cast them as not different enough. This why your argument seems tinged with fallacy - you're arguing from an emotional or partisan framework, a refusal to allow the Horde in general to "lose" a race that "belongs" to them as a concept. I don't have this bias, nor such a strong sense of proprietorship over either faction - instead my concern is about what is fun or interesting to do on a purely game level.

Blood Elves are traditional High Elves. They possess the heritage of their people, the vast majority of the population, the city of Silvermoon, the isle of Quel'danas, the Sunwell, the Farstriders, the Reliquary, the military, the navy and the leadership was legitimately put in charge by the lawful ruler (before he went crazy) who inherited his status from the lawful king. In every conceivable way, they ARE the High Elves with the exception of a single adjective.

The pro High Elf community vocally hankers after the recreation of the Alliance as it was in Warcraft 2, arguing that the current Alliance is therefore incomplete without them being playable and refusing to accept that the Alliance they so dearly wish to play ARE playable, as shown just above, but as a part of the other faction. Their addition to the Horde has been explained, both at the time and fleshed out since, and is less an 'out of left field' choice than one some people have yet to reconcile themselves nearly fourteen years after it was announced.

Your critique on my opinion, that I am encumbered by bias, is incorrect. Whilst I am biased, I operate my arguments within the gameplay frameworks clearly established by Blizzard i.e. unique races constitute unique factions. I find your approach, that seeks to disregard these frameworks in the name of the theoretically possible, to be the curious one because it seemingly settles for the purity of the debate without the genuine and existing restrictions that prevent it happening.

Faction diversity matters for so long as the factions themselves matter. Each faction is constituted of unique races and yes, those races 'belong' to those factions as a result. The theme and aesthetic of the High Elves is a part of the Horde. Duplicating that to the Alliance undermines the integrity of the Horde and the identity of the Blood Elves.

To say my arguments rest on something not being done is a fallacy. These things were not done for certain reasons. It is these reasons that I rely on for my argument, why they didn't swing the hammer versus the hammer not being swung, and that is an important distinction.

Cudgels are not great things to wield in a conceptual debate, I think you missed that. This isn't an arena where you get to beat down your opposition regardless of the correctness or incorrectness of your position. We're assaying the truth of opinions here - there isn't actually a "correct" or "incorrect" to be had in the objective sense. Violence, real or proverbial, doesn't help your cause.

Saying the word violence is a stretch, particularly as you were the one who brought up metaphorical cudgels. We are not debating the opinions of the developers or what they said, we are debating the viability of Alliance High Elves as an Allied race. Under these circumstances, usage of developer commentary is more than justified. Particularly as that commentary highlights areas the pro High Elf community wishes to ignore.

There is a campaign, I suppose, but it is not one I am involved in nor what I am actually discussing. I have no horse in that race, and if High Elven exiles prove to never become playable I will go on in my own way without much complaint (save perhaps saying "they should've done that when they could've, but ah well"). If they do add them I'll celebrate their addition as I would any other, really. More options of playability is a good thing, in my eyes, and I have little interest in denying other people things due to some strange sense of fantastical proprietorship or gate-keeping.

Yet by participating in this debate you are very much a part of it, and part of it on behalf of the pro High Elf community. You are presenting their talking points, and disagreeing with anti High Elf positions. It is impossible to argue a point of view whilst not promoting the campaign that espouses that point of view. You have every right to argue this debate of course, and your motivation is clearly the debate rather than the campaign, but the campaign benefits from your efforts and that too is undeniable and unavoidable.

And I am denying the pro High Elf community nothing, nor gate keeping anything. They are as free to play a High Elf as anyone is, by rolling a Blood Elf. And if playing Horde is too much for them, they have a unique variant all of their own. But in a game where we have two unique factions comprised of unique races, I reject the idea that it is somehow fanatical to ensure that your faction and it's races are treated with respect, and that if someone wants to play an option that is unique to your faction that they have the decency to play your faction as well.

Well, yes, there's no debating the current reality - why would you? If your argument is "I'm right because I support what was done" then so be it, but if that is the case, why even have the argument? It's also not the same argument as the one I'm proposing or attempting to participate in, really; which would make it doubly futile.

The same reason everyone posts. We post not to convince each other but to convince those who read our arguments. We may also flatter ourselves that a developer may glance at this topic and be swayed by the passion of our debate, one way or the other.
Given the debate is many years older than Ion's Q and A answers, and his Q and A answer was a succint summary of the anti High Elf position as put forward over the years, I reckon we may have met with a measure of success. Either that or the anti High Elf position is based on common sense and Blizzard reached the same conclusions on the topic we did as a result.

Illogical? No, I wouldn't say that. Immaterial? More likely, given that the stance I'm arguing doesn't factor in faction concerns in the slightest, especially from a lore angle, and for two salient reasons. First, the High Elven exiles already exist in the game (that I think is an unassailable fact), they're not playable but they exist and are a force in their own right within the narrative itself. Secondly, the High Elves exiles are already an Alliance faction - again, not a playable one, but they've essentially declared themselves insofar as the major factions are concerned. So from a narrative angle, the "distinction" you're arguing already exists and is accounted for already. The only remain contention is the gameplay/model differentiation argument, and I claim that is easily resolved through any of a number of existing or possible means.

The High Elves are *already* in the Alliance, just not playable - again, what you seem to fear has already come to pass. Flipping the playability switch is not going to change that overly.

There is a great deal of difference between being a part of a faction and being playable. Hozen are in the Horde, but Hozen are not a core part of the Horde's identity. There are many small, fringe npc groups who are part of a faction but not intrinsic to it. Only being playable confers that status upon a race. Blood Elves are playable, and a major part of the Horde.
Alliance High Elves are in the Alliance, but in extremely small numbers (the Silver Covenant are based in Dalaran and are playing no part in the current conflict, and the Quel'lithien lodge might be technically independent). The presence of a miniscule number of High Elves within the Alliance does not outweigh the fact that an identical High Elf option is already available in game on the other faction.

Your claim regarding gameplay/model differentiation is fatally undermined by the fact that they already did it with the Void Elves, and that this entire debate is in service to the community who rejected that differentiation.

No, they've given evidence, just as I have above. The opinion is the thing being supported by said evidence.

No, they have given opinions. Opinions are not evidence.

I see no evidence of that.

That's because it's an opinion.

Developer commentary is great when the exploration is one of fact - what occurred in the story, why it was done, the factors relating to it or stemming from it, etc. etc. It is of demonstrably less use when a developer decision is itself being debated, the rationale being dissected, questioned, and explored. The manner in which you've tended to use it here is typically inapplicable, representing a type of argumentation of a self-sealing type, basically boiling down to "X happened, and I agree with X, therefore I win." No one is debating what happened - we know what happened. We're debating the substance of the reasons as to why X happened. X happening doesn't prove anyone right or wrong. X cannot prove itself, that's not how argumentation works.

Once again, this is not a debate on why something happened. This is not done for purely academic reasons. This is an active discussion and an active campaign, the campaign's goals being to overturn the decisions as expressed via the commentary.
The commentary itself has value because it shows up the fundamental flaw in the other side of the debate, that the pro High Elf side does not value faction diversity whereas the developers do. Using the commentary shows that unless the developers change the value they place on faction diversity, then the pro High Elf side can never make headway because their goal cannot be realised without reducing faction diversity.

Attempts to argue Alliance High Elves can be differentiated from Blood Elves therefore miss the point entirely. They can't be. The argument should be that faction diversity itself is valued too highly by Blizzard, not that Alliance High Elves and Blood Elves are actually different races and so don't compromise it.

If you define diversity as a binary (either it is or isn't, 0 or 1) then this debate is already over - the Pandaren broke faction diversity with their inclusion and thus no harm is done by adding the High Elven exiles because there is no diversity at all now.

I never said it wasn't broken before, I said it couldn't be quantified as small. Pandaren neutrality was a mistake, one that damaged the factions and made them similar. But a mistake is not a license to repeat that mistake, albeit on a grander scale. Because at the very least, Pandaren were given to both sides at the same time. They were not taking a race that has been exclusively Horde for over a decade and duplicating them to the Alliance. As bad as Pandaren were, that would be infinitely worse.

This is a claim I reject, for the reasons previously stated. I do not think that the High Elven exiles and the Blood Elves have the equality you claim and therefore no "harm" is done to either faction by their playable inclusion.

They are the same race in a game where faction identity is predicated on their unique (with one flawed exception) memberships. Duplicating a core race of one side to the other faction undermines the integrity of that faction. That should be a given.

That's what "countering" is, the presentation of an opposing viewpoint. If you're attempting to claim no one has brought forth an opposing viewpoint then all I can do is say you are either mistaken or being willfully obstinate.

I define countering as presenting evidence that proves another statement wrong or at least makes a good go of it. It depends on the strength of the evidence used by the other individual. When the evidence used is from Blizzard and the opinions against it are just that, opinions motivated by an internal bias to reject a truth, then that is not countering. When a flat earther presents their 'opinion' against the Round Earth 'theory', are they also countering the 'round earth'?


At this point I have literally run out of time to respond. I can do no more.

[Hallowseve17]

I've said this before, but if the race has been allied with the Alliance or Horde in the past, they SHOULD be playable. People can argue and say races like High Elves, Wildhammer Dwarves, Broken, Furbolg, Jinyu, Ogres, Taunka, Forest Trolls, Undead Elves, Hozen, etcetera are mere "flavor NPCs", but you can't take away the fact that they play a role in their respective faction's story, no matter how minor a role they may play.

Allied Races are chosen based on their relevance in the ongoing narrative. If they ever revamp Azeroth, these already established "allied races" can be made playable and they should. People are always going on about Blood Elves looking identical to High Elves, which is blatantly true. However, the story has emphasized a political difference between the two, just like the Tushui and Huojin Pandaren. Also, people say there's no way to make High Elves different from Blood Elves. That's preposterous. Look at all forms of media you consume; they all have stories, stories that are constantly evolving.

Who's says in the future Blizzard can't write the High Elves differently? All that's needed is a story that has Alleria and Vereesa Windrunner coming together to unify their scattered people. Cliche, I know, but it can be done. Then, from there they can give playable High Elves a slightly different appearance, after all Void Elves are really only different from Blood Elves because of their blue/purple skin, their void powers, and occasional tentacles. They also gave the Void Elves slightly different hairstyles, and remember, Void Elves are a flavor of Blood Elf. You essentially apply this to High Elves, give them some tattoos, and boom, you've got a slightly unique Allied Race.

The main point of all this is that more options equals a more diverse and immersive world. We're all entitled to our own opinions, after all and everybody's is valid. Honestly, I'll take High Elves in any capacity (my main is a Blood Elf, so spare me the "play Horde" comments), whether they are made into an Allied Race or added as Void Elf customization options; we don't know how the next generation of Void Elves are going to be made anyway. Once again, for me, I welcome any new playable races or customization options because it enhances the world and the overall story. You can never have too many options, right?

P.S. Grimtotem are a split people - there are those allied with Magatha and those allied with the Horde under the leadership of Jevan "Stormsong" Grimtotem. Many people tend to forget this important piece of information. Source: The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm. And yes, they are originally from Mulgore, we all know that.

[FlubberPuddy]

Just want to also chime in real quick and say if Nightborne from Night Elf differentiation is enough to have an Allied Race then so can Alliance High Elves be modified in such a way to be similar but different to Blood Elves.

Nightborne are essentially more leaner Night Elves, they are more leaner purple elves. That's the visual difference between the two and both are playable race options despite both being purple elves. Because the modification of the body's proportions is what lent to their difference being cemented.

We see this as well with the now playable Kul Tirans and Zandalari Trolls as well.

Interestingly enough Void Elves do not follow this, neither do Mag'har, Dark Irons, Lightforged Draenei, and Highmountain Tauren.

Therefore we can see that a variance in body modification is neither necessary yet also sufficient enough to make a different playable option.

This is why so many pro-High Elf AR have come up with the various body modifications that keep in line with what Alliance High Elves are.

A Void Elf is not an Alliance High Elf, a Void Elf can never be an Alliance High Elf because the Alliance High Elf look/theme/story are all specific to characters such as Vereesa, the Silver Covenant, the Highvale Elves, and those at Allerian Stronghold in Outland.

A Void Elf always, always began previously as a Blood Elf of Silvermoon who followed Umbric as part of his research group. You are told this if you speak to Umbric as a Void Elf player. Every playable Void Elf was once part of the Horde as a Blood Elf, despite not liking it. Every playable Void Elf player can go ahead and shut their ears going "lalala I don't care/never spoke to Umbric/read him saying that" that doesn't change this as being the fact that it is, just as Moorgard explained how they're going to handle Golden Eyes on Blood Elf NPCs despite whatever story the player wishes to make for their own character.

And a Blood Elf isn't an Alliance High Elf for obvious reasons that don't need to be rehashed.

Therefore despite having two playable options of Thalassian Elves, the Alliance High Elves still carry specific looks/themes/story that is their own and unplayable. This is exactly the same as Wildhammer Dwarves for instance, or Forest Trolls.

No person would be correct in pointing someone to play Wildhammer Dwarves by selecting Bronzebeards any more than those who tell others they can play Alliance High Elves by pointing to playing a Void Elf or Blood Elf.

At this point, with Allied Races and the variations we have now, it's not amount just playing a Dwarf, a Human, an Elf, a Troll, a Tauren, an Orc, etc. Race doesn't matter, people want the specific groups that carry with them specific themes/looks/story.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

Then, however, we create different problem. Why don't blood elves have this skin colour?

I mean I would just add darker skin tones on Blood Elves too, again I feel it's just one of those simple and unobtrusive retcons. I'm all for more skin tones for every race.

Yes, it would be interesting. However, I think we also need a reason to make them choose Veressa over Lor'themar.

It could be as easy as who gets to them first; they would control the version of the facts. It could be a group Vereesa has been in contact for years already, painting the BE's on a bad light.

I ask again, would you like to conceptualise "arctic high elves" with me? You know, just for fun.

No thank you, already too much stuff on my plate. Hope you understand.

[Ielenia]

And I will keep going back to the fundamental difference between the Void Elves and those other propositions. That the differences between the Void Elves and the Blood Elves are non replicable in lore. You cannot be a tentacled, blue skinned Blood Elf. Nor can you be a fair skinned, blonde haired Void Elf. The suggestions offered by the pro High Elf community always come down to tattoos or freaky hairstyles, none of which is off limits to a Blood Elf.

This is a blatantly false statement. Void elves are "tentacled, blue skinned blood elves." They literally are. As for being "replicable in the lore", this is where you contradict yourself. Because your argument to support the idea that void elves can "increase their numbers" by converting other thalassian elves into void elves literally claims that the process is not only "replicable in lore", but is being actually replicated right now, as the void elf numbers increase, as the number of "tentacled, blue skinned blood elves" increase.

[matrix123mko]

I mean I would just add darker skin tones on Blood Elves too, again I feel it's just one of those simple and unobtrusive retcons. I'm all for more skin tones for every race.

I thought the idea was to make it unique to high elves. If not, it is okay. Yes, it is totally acceptable.

It could be as easy as who gets to them first; they would control the version of the facts. It could be a group Vereesa has been in contact for years already, painting the BE's on a bad light.

In fact, Alleria is Alliance because Veressa got to her first. If she was to talk with Sylvanas, the story would look different.

No thank you, already too much stuff on my plate. Hope you understand.

I understand it more than you even think. Okay. I will do my things an you will do yours. I am looking for your new content then.

[Obelisk Kai]

This is a blatantly false statement. Void elves are "tentacled, blue skinned blood elves." They literally are. As for being "replicable in the lore", this is where you contradict yourself. Because your argument to support the idea that void elves can "increase their numbers" by converting other thalassian elves into void elves literally claims that the process is not only "replicable in lore", but is being actually replicated right now, as the void elf numbers increase, as the number of "tentacled, blue skinned blood elves" increase.

If I have to go over the entire statement you've grabbed out of context to show you how you've misinterpreted it, I will.

Void Elves WERE Blood Elves, but Void Elves are NOW Void Elves. You cannot simultaneously be a Blood Elf and a Void Elf because a Void Elf has been transformed from being a Blood Elf into a Void Elf.

The process that turns Elves into Void Elves is repeatable, but it is also a one way trip. You cannot be a Blood Elf AND a Void Elf at the same stage, you transform from one into the other. In other words, Void Elves and Blood Elves are mutually exclusive.

What you can be is a tentacled, blue skinned high elf because a Void Elf is a different flavour of High Elf, but the High Elf race encompasses all thalassians whereas the Alliance high elves you wish to play as are a group of political exiles who are not differentiated in any way from Blood Elves.

I hope that clarifies things for you.

[Ielenia]

Void Elves WERE Blood Elves, but Void Elves are NOW Void Elves. You cannot simultaneously be a Blood Elf and a Void Elf because a Void Elf has been transformed from being a Blood Elf into a Void Elf.

They are still blood elves. On top of that, we don't know if the process is reversible or not. As far as I can recall, I haven't even seen nor heard of a single void elf that regrets their choices and wishes they could change back. For all we know, there is a way to reverse the process, but the ren'dorei are maybe not interested in pursuing it, in going back to the way they were before.

The concept of "transformation", in and of itself, does not imply said transformation is impossible to be undone.

The process that turns Elves into Void Elves is repeatable, but it is also a one way trip. You cannot be a Blood Elf AND a Void Elf at the same stage, you transform from one into the other. In other words, Void Elves and Blood Elves are mutually exclusive.

Alleria is the living proof that it can be done. She alternates back and forth between both "stages", 'void elf' and 'high elf', so why couldn't, or shouldn't, that process be replicated for the other elves?

What you can be is a tentacled, blue skinned high elf because a Void Elf is a different flavour of High Elf, but the High Elf race encompasses all thalassians whereas the Alliance high elves you wish to play as are a group of political exiles who are not differentiated in any way from Blood Elves.

This is something I have repeated over and over, and you repeatedly fail to acknowledge this. If it's because you're being intentionally confrontational, or intentionally obtuse, I don't know, but whenever we say the name "high elf" here, we're not talking about the entire Thalassian race, but the group, currently in game, that still maintains the name "high elf". The "high elf exiles", as @Aucald puts it.

There is already a name that is used to describe the entire elven race: "Thalassian elf". You used that name as well, so why is it so hard for you to understand and acknowledge that when we say "high elves" we're talking about the group of elves in the lore that still maintain that name for themselves, that did not re-brand themselves at Kael'Thas behest, and did not follow Kael'Thas' edict of draining mana from living beings, and not the entire Thalassian race?

[Aldo Hawk]

The High elf model can be modified to show how they looked when not affected by the aftermath of the scourge invasion.

Is simple as that. We all know how Blood elves look. Now, how did High elves look back then? Current models don't make justice by the simple fact they were designed to be playable for Blood elves and then just slightly modified for High elf NPCs.

It's super simple, and more than a lore friendly way to have a distinct looking High elf playable race in opposition to the Blood elves. Show what a High elf that didn't went through what the Blood elves did looks like.

[MyWholeLifeIsThunder]

I thought the idea was to make it unique to high elves. If not, it is okay. Yes, it is totally acceptable.

I mean on one hand I do want wider skin tone variety, specially dark skin tones, for all races.

But I do think you can have differentiation by the HUE of the skin tone rather than the VALUE; Like, have both High Elves and Blood Elves with darker skin tones, but have HE have paler/ashier skin tones; less saturated, and give BE the golden/sunkissed/tanned skin tones. Ya feel? I do have a mock up of the HE skin tones I'd like, but I have yet to made the BE ones for contrast.

In fact, Alleria is Alliance because Veressa got to her first. If she was to talk with Sylvanas, the story would look different.

Possibly, although we can't forget Alleria was the most anti orc elf to ever anti orc lol. Her whole arc on Beyond the Dark Portal was to be less extermination minded about the orcs hehe!

[Aldo Hawk]

this is where you contradict yourself.

No, you are paraphrasing it in a way that seems like this exact point is the only contradiction. That is not the case.

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In fact, Alleria is Alliance because Veressa got to her first. If she was to talk with Sylvanas, the story would look different.

This is with the exclusion of Turalyon and the fact that Alleria didn't liked the horde nor the state her sister Sylvanas is now.

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There is already a name that is used to describe the entire elven race: "Thalassian elf". You used that name as well, so why is it so hard for you to understand and acknowledge that when we say "high elves" we're talking about the group of elves in the lore that still maintain that name for themselves, that did not re-brand themselves at Kael'Thas behest, and did not follow Kael'Thas' edict of draining mana from living beings, and not the entire Thalassian race?

Two things.

The process to transform other elves into Void elves is -not- repeatable, Moorgard's vague answer don't create such thing in the lore nor in game. It has to be written first before we can even say it can happen, because by simply taking the response on the face of it, there is a big lacking on information on how it happens why it happens, the reasons for it, the things that are needed, the reasons the characters decide to do it... Etc...

And yes, at this point, dancing around the word and concept of 'High elf' just strikes as blatantly and plainly obtuse, arrogant and dishonest.

We all know what a High elf is. We all also know what a -Thalassian- elf is.

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Possibly, although we can't forget Alleria was the most anti orc elf to ever anti orc lol. Her whole arc on Beyond the Dark Portal was to be less extermination minded about the orcs hehe!

Seems like you answered to this before me, well... At least I added some more info about it.

[Ielenia]

Two things.

The process to transform other elves into Void elves is -not- repeatable,

I'm not saying it is. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between Obelisk Kai first saying that the process is repeatable, regarding the VE population argument, but then saying that it's NOT a repeatable process, meaning blood elves cannot get VE stuff like void powers or looks.

[matrix123mko]

Possibly, although we can't forget Alleria was the most anti orc elf to ever anti orc lol. Her whole arc on Beyond the Dark Portal was to be less extermination minded about the orcs hehe!

I think that in very long talk Sylvanas could explain everything: the Mannoroth's blood, Scourge of Lordaeron, fall of Quel'thalas and so on. I don't think she would become Horde enthusiast but maybe she would turn neutral.

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I'm not saying it is. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between Obelisk Kai first saying that the process is repeatable, regarding the VE population argument, but then saying that it's NOT a repeatable process, meaning blood elves cannot get VE stuff like void powers or looks.

Are we sure it is not repeatable? Maybe it is but Locus Walker doesn't want to explain it to Alleria.

[Obelisk Kai]

They are still blood elves. On top of that, we don't know if the process is reversible or not. As far as I can recall, I haven't even seen nor heard of a single void elf that regrets their choices and wishes they could change back. For all we know, there is a way to reverse the process, but the ren'dorei are maybe not interested in pursuing it, in going back to the way they were before.


The concept of "transformation", in and of itself, does not imply said transformation is impossible to be undone.

No, they are not still Blood Elves. They are clearly different from Blood Elves. If they were still the same as Blood Elves, they wouldn't be called Void Elves. They wouldn't have gone through a transformation. As for 'undoing' the process, sheer hypocrisy on your part. I have put forward a rationale for my belief that the Void Elves can reproduce by converting other Elves.

1.) Moorgard's commentary
2.) In game where the number of Void Elves does not match the small group present at the initial transformation.
3.) Common sense in that if they couldn't reproduce, the Horde would have wiped them out by now given the number we have killed.

You are extremely resistant to this because it suits your arguments to say 'Void Elves cannot reproduce', because if they could reproduce then they could reproduce from Alliance High Elves. They hypocrisy comes from you saying 'we don't know if the process can be reversed' and attempting to use that as a counter-point.

While on the one hand you reject outright that they can convert other Elves, a position with actual evidence behind it, you hypocritically deploy a counter-argument that the transformation can be undone in an attempt to counter a point I made. There is absolutely no evidence that the process can be reversed. The presumption that the transformation is one way is therefore a fair assumption to operate under.

Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/Alliance High Elves because the unique options available to Void Elves are a by-product of the transformation. You cannot be a blue skinned, tentacled Blood Elf any more than you can be a fair skinned, blonde haired Void Elf. Even were your completely hypothetical, literally zero evidence proposition that the transformation from Void Elf back into a Blood/Alliance High Elf possible, that would still some involve some sort of transitional, transformational process between the two states and would have no impact on the fact that those two states ARE differentiated.

Alleria is the living proof that it can be done. She alternates back and forth between both "stages", 'void elf' and 'high elf', so why couldn't, or shouldn't, that process be replicated for the other elves?

Well I think I may have answered this before for you but I am not adverse to doing so again. Alleria is a hero character, like Anduin (who is a plate wearing, sword wielding priest) and others. The rules that apply to hero characters don't necessarily apply to player characters. And to be more specific, Alleria came by her powers a completely different way in that she ate the heart of a dark naaru to become a Void Elf rather than being blasted by void energies in a failed attempt to turn them into an ethereal. Now, if Blizzard allows players to become Void Elves by repeating the process Alleria did then sure, they can have their 'switch form' mode, however Dark Naaru are exceptionally, extremely rare. You know, the kind of occurrence you'd use in the plotline of a hero character rather than making available to every Tom, Dick and Harry Void Elf. This of course is not to say that Blizzard will not eventually give Void Elf like skins to the Void Elves...but that will still be a Void Elf, and won't be done the same way Alleria came by her abilities.

This is something I have repeated over and over, and you repeatedly fail to acknowledge this. If it's because you're being intentionally confrontational, or intentionally obtuse, I don't know, but whenever we say the name "high elf" here, we're not talking about the entire Thalassian race, but the group, currently in game, that still maintains the name "high elf". The "high elf exiles", as @Aucald puts it.

I note the phrase 'intentionally obtuse', which Aucald has used. 'High Elf exile' is also a phrase Aucald has deployed. I am glad to see he has enriched your writing style.

There is already a name that is used to describe the entire elven race: "Thalassian elf". You used that name as well, so why is it so hard for you to understand and acknowledge that when we say "high elves" we're talking about the group of elves in the lore that still maintain that name for themselves, that did not re-brand themselves at Kael'Thas behest, and did not follow Kael'Thas' edict of draining mana from living beings, and not the entire Thalassian race?

Because the entire thrust of the pro High Elf position is that the Alliance High Elves are a distinct race. Reserving the name 'High Elf' for just the Alliance High Elves implicitly concedes the point. This is not the case.

Void Elves have been described as 'another flavour of High Elves'. They are 'NOT' the Alliance High Elves, well, most of them aren't. Some of them clearly were. But they are High Elves. Just a different type.
Blood Elves, as you WERE told, ARE High Elves.
Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves too, but to call them High Elves alone is to privilege their claim to the legacy of the entire race, which as they dying dregs of a political splinter faction they don't deserve.

So there is a High Elf race, also known as the Thalassian Elves. There are two types of thalassian elf, Blood/Alliance High Elves and Void Elves. There are not three.
Among the Blood/Alliance High Elf type, there is a political split between the overwhelming majority of their people and a tiny band of exiles.

In a similar vein, there are four Tauren races. Mulgore, Highmountain, Yaungol and Taunka. There are not five despite the political split between the Mulgore Tauren and the Grimtotem. The Grimtotem are a political faction of the Mulgore Tauren who are currently in exile. They do not constitute a distinct Tauren race. As with the Grimtotem, so the Alliance High Elves.

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I'm not saying it is. I'm just pointing out the inconsistency between Obelisk Kai first saying that the process is repeatable, regarding the VE population argument, but then saying that it's NOT a repeatable process, meaning blood elves cannot get VE stuff like void powers or looks.

And this seems like a perfect TLDR as it shows you completely misunderstood the initial point. The process IS repeatable, but you cannot simultaneously be a Blood/Alliance High Elf and a Void Elf. They are two distinct states, separated by a transformative process. Therefore, if you are a Blood Elf and go through the process, you gain VE looks and powers but you become a Void Elf and stop being a Blood/Alliance High Elf.

[elbleuet]

Blood elves aren't High elves. They're fel corrupted or light corrupted Thalasian elves.

The untouched elves are those who sided with the Alliance.

And blood elves never defined themselves as high elves.

Face it. You will never get Horde High elves and that's a good thing because High elves are an iconic race of the Alliance.

[scubi666stacy]

Blood elves aren't High elves. They're fel corrupted or light corrupted Thalasian elves.

The untouched elves are those who sided with the Alliance.

And blood elves never defined themselves as high elves.

Face it. You will never get Horde High elves and that's a good thing because High elves are an iconic race of the Alliance.

Nobody wants Horde "High Elves". We have Blood Elves, the true heirs of Silvermoon. But after the restoration of the Sunwell, they are phsically quite the same as the renegade High Elves - because the renegades are allowed to visit the Sunwell, although they are traitors.

[Obelisk Kai]

Blood elves aren't High elves. They're fel corrupted or light corrupted Thalasian elves.

Blood Elves ARE High Elves according to the Game Director. And if they are light corrupted, so are the Alliance High Elves.

The untouched elves are those who sided with the Alliance.

These Elves also have an addiction they need to sate. They are not 'untouched'.

And blood elves never defined themselves as high elves.

Every Blood Elf alive today except the very youngest defined themselves as High Elves in the not too distant past, and given their lifespans are thousands of years long, over 99% of their lifespans.

Face it. You will never get Horde High elves and that's a good thing because High elves are an iconic race of the Alliance.

Blood Elves ARE Horde High Elves...so I guess you are right. We will never get what we already have. It would be like asking to have your favorite t-shirt you are wearing. Alliance High Elves are not however an iconic Alliance race and insisting they are iconic merely demonstrates are an ignorance of or a contempt for existing lore.

[ninthbelief]

It is true that Blood elves represent the fantasy High elf trope, but the actual Warcraft High elves represent it's own unique trope separate from the standard High elf trope.
High elves aren't supremacist, arrogant or overly racist. They're humble, friendly and supporting of the Alliance and their human allies and even Horde races in some cases.

They're their own unique elf trope and that's what has attracted many people to them, it was never having blonde pretty elves in the Alliance.

This is literally what Obelisk Kai's (and a lot of "antis" in general's) baseline is made from, dude. "High Elf fans" like to have in their head that it's a divide between "good blue-eyed elves" and "bad green-eyed elves", completely disregarding an entire world's history and dismissing two separate races' entire stories.

Using "overly racist" vs "racist" isn't gonna save you any face, the High Elves are incredulously racist, and worse, they're hypocritical when it comes to their racism, as they'd rather stay in bed with the Alliance than stick up for their not-even-as-distant-as-cousins in Silvermoon. I'm not saying that's something to hate about them, there's tons of interesting thoughts to think there and things you can possibly do with that storytelling wise, but that's the reality of it. They are more "supremacist", arrogant, and racist, than their kin and on top of it they aren't honest about it in any capacity. Again, that doesn't mean they're not cool or worthy of affection, but pretending it's the opposite because "blood elves bad" is just fucking non-sense.

I don't think the "anti" argument of "high elves rob the blood elf fantasy >:[" is very honest, even when long-time posters and friends like Obelisk Kai do it, but then posts like these justify them entirely (on a public forum level). Just because the High Elves aren't named something as edgy and portray themselves as taking the moral high-ground doesn't mean they aren't capable of having negative traits, and the specific traits you assign to Blood Elves to make them look bad are all specifically ones that are worse in the High Elf pop regardless.

If you want High Elves, and boy, do I, you cannot sit here and condescend that High Elves are the good guys and Blood Elves are the bad guys. Not only is it objectively false, but you create more opposition for them actually ever coming by sowing discord among potential fans with sweeping lines like "ugh, High Elves are just better than those supremacist, arrogant, racist Blood Elves "

[Ielenia]

Are we sure it is not repeatable? Maybe it is but Locus Walker doesn't want to explain it to Alleria.

I'm not saying it is, or it isn't, really.

- - - Updated - - -

No, they are not still Blood Elves. They are clearly different from Blood Elves. If they were still the same as Blood Elves, they wouldn't be called Void Elves.

By that rationale, "blood elves" are not "high elves" anymore, or else they wouldn't have taken that new name. Names are just that: names. One very possible reason they took on a new name was because they were ostracized and banished from their own homes, and decided to carve a new path for themselves.

But they are still blood elves. They just got a different makeover. What you're doing is saying that the lightforged draenei are no longer draenei, that the highmountain tauren are no longer tauren.

As for 'undoing' the process, sheer hypocrisy on your part. I have put forward a rationale for my belief that the Void Elves can reproduce by converting other Elves.

1.) Moorgard's commentary
2.) In game where the number of Void Elves does not match the small group present at the initial transformation.
3.) Common sense in that if they couldn't reproduce, the Horde would have wiped them out by now given the number we have killed.


You are extremely resistant to this because it suits your arguments to say 'Void Elves cannot reproduce', because if they could reproduce then they could reproduce from Alliance High Elves. They hypocrisy comes from you saying 'we don't know if the process can be reversed' and attempting to use that as a counter-point.

This entire thing has nothing to do with what I wrote regarding my claim about the transformation not being necessarily impossible to be reversed. You went on a huge tangent and went off-course, considering I never once mentioned anything about "reproduction" or "population" in the section you quoted.

While on the one hand you reject outright that they can convert other Elves, a position with actual evidence behind it, you hypocritically deploy a counter-argument that the transformation can be undone in an attempt to counter a point I made. There is absolutely no evidence that the process can be reversed. The presumption that the transformation is one way is therefore a fair assumption to operate under.

False. On all accounts. I never said that the transformation can be reversed, I only said it could be, because we have no evidence that it cannot.

Void Elves are differentiated from Blood/Alliance High Elves because the unique options available to Void Elves are a by-product of the transformation. You cannot be a blue skinned, tentacled Blood Elf any more than you can be a fair skinned, blonde haired Void Elf. Even were your completely hypothetical, literally zero evidence proposition that the transformation from Void Elf back into a Blood/Alliance High Elf possible, that would still some involve some sort of transitional, transformational process between the two states and would have no impact on the fact that those two states ARE differentiated.

Void elves are "blue-skinned, tentacled blood elves". That aside: yes, you technically can. Alleria Windrunner is the living proof that it is possible. What converted the first void elves, i.e., Umbric's group, was a seemingly chaotic process that got interrupted "in the middle". What converted Alleria was a controlled process. Considering we see both Alleria and Locus-Walker in the Telogrus Rift zone, why couldn't Alleria, or even Locus-Walker, use that same process to convert new void elves instead of relying in the same process that almost consumed Umbric and his group?

Well I think I may have answered this before for you but I am not adverse to doing so again. Alleria is a hero character, like Anduin (who is a plate wearing, sword wielding priest) and others. The rules that apply to hero characters don't necessarily apply to player characters. And to be more specific, Alleria came by her powers a completely different way in that she ate the heart of a dark naaru to become a Void Elf rather than being blasted by void energies in a failed attempt to turn them into an ethereal. Now, if Blizzard allows players to become Void Elves by repeating the process Alleria did then sure, they can have their 'switch form' mode, however Dark Naaru are exceptionally, extremely rare. You know, the kind of occurrence you'd use in the plotline of a hero character rather than making available to every Tom, Dick and Harry Void Elf. This of course is not to say that Blizzard will not eventually give Void Elf like skins to the Void Elves...but that will still be a Void Elf, and won't be done the same way Alleria came by her abilities.

Alleria's case is not the same as Anduin or similar "notorious NPCs". And before you claim "special pleading", let me explain: Alleria's situation is about her body, her self, and not about which armor she wears or what spells she has. Alleria's process from "high elf"→"void elf" was explained in the lore, and demonstrated in the game. Yes, she consumed the "heart" of a fallen Naaru, but that was not the entire process. We also saw her consuming the "heart" of a void revenant, and we also know that is also not the entirety of the process as Alleria and Locus-Walker's banter during their quest chain in Mac'Aree suggests that Alleria has already been "studying" with Locus-Walker, and even in her very first appearance in Argus she's already demonstrating void powers. For all we know, the reason that Alleria has "gone void" after consuming the fallen Naaru's "heart" was because the thing was almost too powerful and she had to focus to contain it.

The point is: "consuming a fallen Naaru's 'heart'" is not the totality of the process of 'converting to the void', and it doesn't need to be necessary for it, either. A simple "consuming a void naaru is too risky, so we advise not to do it" rationale would work, especially if the version of the conversion process for new void elves from Alleria and Locus-Walker is a condensed, shortened, "tl-dr" version of the original for expedience's sake.

I note the phrase 'intentionally obtuse', which Aucald has used. 'High Elf exile' is also a phrase Aucald has deployed. I am glad to see he has enriched your writing style.

Not really. I used the sentence "intentionally obtuse" waaaaaaaay before Aucald used that sentence in this debate. As for "high elf exiles", I gotta try something to get through to you.

Because the entire thrust of the pro High Elf position is that the Alliance High Elves are a distinct race. Reserving the name 'High Elf' for just the Alliance High Elves implicitly concedes the point. This is not the case.

There is no "implying" anything. High elves are a separate group from the blood elves in the game, already.

Void Elves have been described as 'another flavour of High Elves'. They are 'NOT' the Alliance High Elves, well, most of them aren't. Some of them clearly were. But they are High Elves. Just a different type.
Blood Elves, as you WERE told, ARE High Elves.
Alliance High Elves ARE High Elves too, but to call them High Elves alone is to privilege their claim to the legacy of the entire race, which as they dying dregs of a political splinter faction they don't deserve.

"Clearly were"? Sounds a lot like a simple assumption with no real evidence to back it up. As for what comes after: it's irrelevant. Blood elves are no longer high elves in name. They are blood elves. When discussing high elves, blood elves and void elves, the name "high elf" can no longer be used to describe the entire thalassian race, considering there is still a group within the game that is named "high elf". The most honest thing to do is to start referring to the entire race as "thalassian elf" while leaving the name "high elf" to the ones that still use that name.

"Ah but then the culture and privilege of it..." Bollocks. The legacy of the "entire race" still belong to the Thalassian elves. To the high elves, to the blood elves, to the void elves. It's just really amusing that you say that "name changing doesn't mean anything" when people say that the blood elves are no longer high elves because they rebranded themselves, but the moment "rebranding" is used here to start calling the entire elven race by another name... suddenly "name changing" means everything?

So there is a High Elf race, also known as the Thalassian Elves. There are two types of thalassian elf, Blood/Alliance High Elves and Void Elves. There are not three.
Among the Blood/Alliance High Elf type, there is a political split between the overwhelming majority of their people and a tiny band of exiles.

No. Where "allied race" mechanics and requirements are concerned, there are three "types" of thalassian elves: high elves, blood elves and void elves. You don't see high elves strolling around in blood elf lands, and you don't see blood elves strolling in high elf lands.

High elves are separate from the blood elves politically, and culturally. Just like the "void" changes the void elves culturally from the blood elves, as you like to claim, so do their situation (i.e., their exile from Silvermoon) change the high elves' culture from the blood elves.

In a similar vein, there are four Tauren races. Mulgore, Highmountain, Yaungol and Taunka. There are not five despite the political split between the Mulgore Tauren and the Grimtotem. The Grimtotem are a political faction of the Mulgore Tauren who are currently in exile. They do not constitute a distinct Tauren race. As with the Grimtotem, so the Alliance High Elves.

Actually... yes, they do. Where the game mechanics of "playable race" and "playable allied race" are concerned, yes, the Grimtotem Tauren are a distinct, separate "race".

[FlubberPuddy]

Blood Elves ARE High Elves according to the Game Director. And if they are light corrupted, so are the Alliance High Elves.

You’ve been asked for proof of this by me for a while now and I’m not sure if you just haven’t seen my posts on it or choose to ignore it.

Moorgard clarified on how they deal with the Golden Eyes for NPCs and yet we do not see any Alliance High Elves with Golden Eyes.

They did go ahead and correct the Green Eyes that Frostfencer Seraphi had originally to Blue Eyes though.

Forstfencer Seraphi doesn’t come across as an “important NPC” relegating the need to make a relatively small change such as fixing his eye color.

So how come they took the time to fix a random High Elf’s eye color to Blue on Alliance but haven’t done the same with plunking Gold Eyes on an Alliance High Elf NPC?

You said the same thing that occurs to Blood Elves regarding the Sunwell must occur to Alliance High Elves.

We have been told Golden Eyes occur due to the devotion to Light.

Therefore if no Alliance High Elves have Golden Eyes that must mean the entire group must not be devoted to the Sunwell/Light as Blood Elves or that they are not affected by the Sunwell in the same way as Blood Elves.