Do you want tinkers?

[Skulltaker]

Well, practially everything they have would be something new. We never had have tech-based class, ever.

Hunters and the rockets they fire, and the traps they set, are not tech-based? Okay.

Also, while not attributed to a class, all of that tech-stuff can be gained by picking up engineering. All of it.

Or you play a Goblin, and you get a rocket jump/ clusterrocket belt.

[kaminaris]

You think Tinkers bring anything new to the table? You can literally fulfill their class fantasy with two professions, engineering and alchemy.

Fact is nothing at this point can be new and interesting, however tinkers would probably be the LEAST interesting of all possible future classes

You can't fulfill their class fantasy with profession. That was already debunked 9001 times. Going with your logic we can remove mages because their class fantasy can be fulfilled by enchanters. And remove warriors too because blacksmiths can forge swords.

This pseudo argument is not even funny anymore.

[Trollokdamus]

Don't see how the tinker class can contribute to fighting the void or death.

Why are you so certain that the next expansion will be about "void and death"?

In any case, Tinker(er)s would be a logical continuation of the current story. Mechagnomes have just rejoined the world and their tech is now in possession of both Horde and Alliance. It's only logical for both factions to capitalize on it and train a new generation of Tinkers.

[CopyX1982]

Yes, I do. And, even if they aren't the new class, if we get a new class at all I'd love it if they started at level 1, I have all classes above 110, so a chance to level through the game again on a fresh new class would be super. Haven't leveled all that way since my Belf Monk back at the launch of Mists.

[Skulltaker]

You can't fulfill their class fantasy with profession. That was already debunked 9001 times. Going with your logic we can remove mages because their class fantasy can be fulfilled by enchanters. And remove warriors too because blacksmiths can forge swords.

This pseudo argument is not even funny anymore.

This pseudo-argument has been debunked? By whom, and where?

Tinkers, or Engineers, however you want to call them, use their knowledge of technology to help them in combat. They carry with them tools and their inveltions, which vary from rays, guns, explosives and so on.

Enchanters draw power from materials with magic properties, while mages learn to draw power directly from the Nether. Enchanters also only learn how to enhance items, not how to project magic.

Same goes for Blacksmiths. They don't learn how to fight enemies with their weapons, unlike engineers and their inventions.

[Teriz]

This pseudo-argument has been debunked? By whom, and where?

By me, when you failed to show the video of you performing tank, DPS, or healing rotations while piloting a mech.

Tinkers, or Engineers, however you want to call them, use their knowledge of technology to help them in combat. They carry with them tools and their inveltions, which vary from rays, guns, explosives and so on.

Except the profession doesnt do that. The profession makes items for sale. The toys they create are ineffective in combat, and are mostly used for laughs. The Tinkers shown in the Island Expeditions are actually using tech for combative purposes. Again, another line of separation between the profession and the potential Tinker class.

[zlygork]

Of course you can, tinkers literally tinker with gadgets and brew concoctions, you can do both with engineering and alchemy.

Not effective in combat? Well shit bro I don't know what to tell you, I guesd that's what Blizzard has relegated your pseudo class to. /Shrug

Mages don't enchant armor lore wise? Or do you think that tinkers as a class would mechanically make bombs and mechs to sell on the AH?

[Teriz]

Of course you can, tinkers literally tinker with gadgets and brew concoctions, you can do both with engineering and alchemy.

Not effective in combat? Well shit bro I don't know what to tell you, I guesd that's what Blizzard has relegated your pseudo class to. /Shrug

What if the class is called a Mekgineer?

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Mekgineer

[stresskiller]

what ever they bring make it mail wearing class

[IdTheDemon]

Tinkers would be perfect. We've been long overdue for another ranged weapon user as well as a mail user. Following the route of Demon Hunters, it would be a simple tank/dps class. No need for a healer or 2nd dps spec. Race selection would be pretty open just like monks as I don't see a reason why every race can't be a Tinker. Abilities would be influenced by past bosses and mobs who were either engineers or tinkers similar to how Demon Hunters used abilities that Illidan and other Demon Hunters used (Also RIP Demo Warlocks). Tank cooldowns could summon Mechs to hop in and provide protection while the dps abilities could range from dropping small nukes to creating turrents and Iron Stars.

As for how it would tie in with the obvious Nyalotha/N'Zoth expansion, it's simple. Nyalotha rises from the darkness and the wearied armies of the Alliance and Horde need more than their standard magic to stand a chance. The leaders send the Tinker class player to as many locations of technologically advanced places as possible. This includes Ulduar, Uldir, Tempest Keep, what remains of Draenor, Argus and Mechagon to learn what they can about fighting the Old Gods. The Alliance and Horde pool their knowledge together out of desperation.

After researching all they can, they all gather at Ulduar and the Tinker would bring back people from their travels. This would include former Blood Elves who worked in Tempest Keep, Mimirion from Ulduar, MOTHER from Uldir, Iron Horde Engineers who served Garrosh, and even Sargarei engineers from Argus who surrendered at the end of Legion. The Tinker class would be an accumulation of all this knowledge and they would use it to aide the factions. In short, every single important engineer makes their appearance here alongside some new ones and they help storm Nyalotha.

The final mission for the introduction would be similar to the classic scene in Aliens where the cocky Marines storm a nest of Xenomorphs only to escape with a handful of people. The Tinkers along with the regular members of the Alliance and Horde storm the opening of Nyalotha and rain fire down on abberations and all monsters. They appear to be winning when N'Zoth decides to have enough fun and flex his power, killing most of the crew and the Tinker/players are stranded. They slowly make their way out of the intro zone and regroup to plan their next moves.

[Satelliteyears0o]

Seen this argument time and time again.

Warlocks are completely different from Necromancers.

Death Knights are completely different from Necromancers.

Warlocks are completely different from Mages.

Death Knights are completely different from Warriors.

Just because two concepts have overlapping features does not make them the same. I dont even want Necromancer but Necromancer is a way more convincing class than a Tinker. You cant have played the old RTS games and be making the argument that a tinker is the most obvious class in line for release, in the same way that Vulpera appears to be coming before Ogres is ridiculous.

Death Knights for example were taught the art of necromancy by the Necromancer Gothik the Harvester. That dosent make them necromancers outright. In theory a mage could cast a warlock spell, or a warlock a mage spell, but people need to get over this idea that every class is already done when fundamentally, these classes are different. A necromancer would probably bridge the gap between a Death knigth and a warlock, mixing concepts of both to create its own unique identity.

If you want Tinker, cool, If you want Necromancer, cool. But really people need to realise that almost any class is possible. I keep seeing Dark Ranger, god knows what people think that is supposed to be, but you know what, im sure given a few months you could whip up a damn exciting class. Perhaps something between a Demon hunter and a hunter, there you go, we have a start. Throw in a cross between wraithwalk and disengage and you have your very own Dark Ranger ranged movement ability.

God knows what they will do next, but either way, its going to be something that isnt as obvious as the current class lineup!

Of course I can, cuz tinker was a hero in WC3 (while necromancer was just a basic unit), from the merc camp of course, but still a hero nonetheless. Its not conventional as u are introducing mechs, lasers, rockets, bots n sentries, and all sorts of nonsense to the equation which is completely different from what we have currently.

What the point is why introduce a class so close to an already existing one and strain the creativity pool when they can fully flesh out an entirely new class that has obvious foreshadowing from this expansion in a space that we've never gone before (as far as class).

[Skulltaker]

By me, when you failed to show the video of you performing tank, DPS, or healing rotations while piloting a mech.



Except the profession doesnt do that. The profession makes items for sale. The toys they create are ineffective in combat, and are mostly used for laughs. The Tinkers shown in the Island Expeditions are actually using tech for combative purposes. Again, another line of separation between the profession and the potential Tinker class.

A parameter you set and acknowledged by no one. Cute try, but another failure - it doesn't debunk anything.

The profession does exactly that. If the items were for sale only, having the profession wouldn't be a prerequisite to use some of them. So, that argument was entirely pointless, like all your ramblings. The damage and effectiveness of it being negligible is a new trend. Most people who were serious about PvP in Vanilla had engineer, it had some amazing items back then. Since Blizzard has removed the teeth from all professions, Engineers fell behind aswell. That's a sad story in itself, and I'd be all for making other professions than alchemy relevant again, but it's what we have.

It doesn't change the fact that Tinker is just another word for E ngineer, and, flavor aside, they do the same thing. If you want Gelbin and that Goblin to be special, be my guest. Named characters are always capable of surpassing players in all regards anyway. No player blacksmith will ever be as good a blacksmith as whomever forged The Ashbringer. Mekkatorque and Gallywix might be a little more skilled than other Engineers, but they are still just that.

If you want to make a distinction inbetween Tinkers and Engineers, fine. It is in name only. Because Engineers build and fight in mechsuits just as well. Or anybody, basically. Remember the world quests where you get to pilot the warframe?

[rhorle]

What again do the tinker teams do that engineers cannot do?

What do healer specs do that health potions can not? That is a bit of a silly thing to stop a class from coming to the game. Why do we need mages when we can just use enchants and inscriptions?

Think of it like brewing beer. Anyone can do it. Get a kit follow the recipe. But not everyone can brew really good beer. Same thing with cooking. A lot of people can cook but not everyone is a 5-star chef. The difference between engineer and tinker is the difference between a person cooking and a professional chef. Or in terms that fit the theme the difference between a typical real world engineer and Iron Man.

Most things any class does can be covered by some thing else in the lore.

[Teriz]

If you want to make a distinction inbetween Tinkers and Engineers, fine. It is in name only. Because Engineers build and fight in mechsuits just as well. Or anybody, basically. Remember the world quests where you get to pilot the warframe?

Which engineers? Certainly not the ones available to players. That's the point.

[Skulltaker]

What do healer specs do that health potions can not? That is a bit of a silly thing to stop a class from coming to the game. Why do we need mages when we can just use enchants and inscriptions?

Think of it like brewing beer. Anyone can do it. Get a kit follow the recipe. But not everyone can brew really good beer. Same thing with cooking. A lot of people can cook but not everyone is a 5-star chef. The difference between engineer and tinker is the difference between a person cooking and a professional chef. Or in terms that fit the theme the difference between a typical real world engineer and Iron Man.

Most things any class does can be covered by some thing else in the lore.

Health postions expire and require preperation. A healer does not. As for inscription and enchanting, I have yet to encounter any inscription or enchant that can duplicate the effect of a single spellcaster spell.

As presented in-game, enchanters and scribes convey magical properties to items. This is something mages cannot do, nor any other spellcaster. On the other hand, no scribe or enchanter can do what mages or warlocks can do. They cannot conjure food and water, portals, fireballs, elementals, demons or make a rain of fire. While they both utilize magic, that is about the extent of their similarities. Mages are probably the single most influential class to the game. Khadgar and Medivh, Jaina, Azshara, Kalec, it's pretty hard to find any noteworthy event in the history of Warcraft that didn't have a mage pulling the strings. Enchanters, on the other hand, leave their mark on history mostly for through the items they leave behind.

So far, every class in the game has a unique idea to them. You can sum up their 'fantasy' in a few sentences, and nothing in game comes close to it, from a lore point of view.

Priests and Paladins utilize the Light to help others, but while priest focuses on the spiritual side to attack and defend, Paladins focus on the martial side.

Warlocks utilize the fel to consort with demons and gain power. They corrupt and defile. Demon Hunters imbue themselves with demonic energy to hunt and destroy the Legion and their enemies.

Shamans call upon the elements.

Mages call upon the arcane.

Druids follow the call of Nature.

Death Knights are the Champions of Death itself.

Hunters use their connection to the wild and technology to gain an edge. Warriors use their own strength and rage. Rogues use subtlety and poisons. Monks use inner strength and spirit.

Tinkers, on the other hand, do just what engineers do. They build weapons of varying shape - turrets, mech suits, explosives, ray guns, and so on, to overcome their enemies.

Engineers have been the pinnacle of technological warfare in WarCraft through several addons. The NPCs labelled as 'Tinker' are not at the forefront of anything, nor are they the best at anything. Gelbin Mekkatorque can build a Mech Suit. So? The Draenai Artificers build a Spaceship. And he's the only Tinker in name there is, who is of note.

Gazlowe is an Engineer. Self-proclaimed. He's not outstanding in any way. Turrets and a zapp gun? Big deal. The Mo'arg Engineers built Kil'Jaeden a Star Destroyer and Fel Reavers. Or rather, Mo'Arg Tinkers. Same difference.

Every class that has been added, so far, has offered the player something unique to pick up. Something no other class can do, lore wise. Are machanics similar? Yes, they are. But from a 'class fantasy' point of view? No two classes are the same. Some speccs play similar. But that's just gameplay mechanics.

A Tinker would be nothing else than a hunter with engineering. Or a Warrior with engineering. Or a healer with engineering. IS engineering in a good place right now? HELL NO. It's always been a crucial part of WarCraft lore and it needs to step the fuck up. But is it worthy of a class?

Sure. Why not. But it wouldn't offer you anything that your character cannot already do, to some extent. Mech-suits are Tinker's big deal? Cool. I can do that in World Quests. Explosives, mines, and rockets? Hunters do that. And Engineers. Death Rays? Engineers. Healing with Tech? Engineers, again.

Tinkers, in the lore, are not the refined version of engineers. They are the exact same. The only notable Tinker in the lore is Gelbin Mekkatorque. Siegecrafter Blackfuse, who pilots a mech, is an Engineer. So is Gazlowe. Gallywix isn't exactly remarkable, being a second-rate Mekkatorque.

I get that people would love to fight in Mech suits. Why not? It's cool.

But it isn't unique. And if the past AddOns have shown us anything is that Blizzard loves to make the player feel like the special little snowflake. Ain't that right, Champion?

- - - Updated - - -

Which engineers? Certainly not the ones available to players. That's the point.

And there is a plethora of things any notable NPC in any class and profession can do that the players can not, as well. Mekkatorque is just a marginally better Engineer than the PCs are.

Players are not the main characters. We are not the strongest beings on the planet. We're not S Tier. We aren't even A Tier. We're not the pinnacle of our classes, or professions. We never were, and we'll never be.

We are vastly above average. Outstanding, even. But Mekkatorque will always be a better Engineer, just like whomever forged the Ashbringer will always be the better Smith.

Dude, if Blizzard wants to make Engineering into a class, why not. After Demon Hunters, everything is possible. I think there's a lot more room to spread into different class fantasies, though. Mostly a Void based class.

[Jastall]

Any lore argument against any class is invalid in my opinion. Warcraft lore is inconsistent at the best of times, and two out of three added classes already had to bend the lore to exist.

Current generation Death Knights are Scourge-only and made from humans? No problem, let us invent a third generation, that can be close to any race, which rebels against Arthas!

Demon Hunters are a very rare sight and their mentor is presumed dead? Pft. Let's have Illidan be both alive and retconned into a good guy, and hide a small army of Azeroth-friendly DHs in Marduum and the Vault of the Wardens. Voilà, DH playable.

Hell even Monks are a slight stretch. No one could teach these skills? Nonsense, the mists around Pandaria part and already there's dozens of kung fu pandas eager to share their knowledge with hapless level 1s.

If Blizzard wants a class to happen, it WILL happen come hell or high water. They sure won't give two fucks if they have to give the lore a beating while they do it. So let's not try with these ''well Tinkers aren't that well represented guys'' or ''well Necromancers are baddies!'' arguments that I see.

[rhorle]

Health postions expire and require preperation. A healer does not. As for inscription and enchanting, I have yet to encounter any inscription or enchant that can duplicate the effect of a single spellcaster spell.

I have yet to encounter any engineering created items that are viable to spells and abilities. Engineering also requires you to gather materials, gadgets and what not. A tinker wouldn't. This is the problem you are arbitrary assigning different standards to Tinkers versus anything else. We haven't seen any examples in Lore of potions expiring. Spells and the like require preparation, study, practice etc in the lore.

[Skulltaker]

I have yet to encounter any engineering created items that are viable to spells and abilities. Engineering also requires you to gather materials, gadgets and what not. A tinker wouldn't. This is the problem you are arbitrary assigning different standards to Tinkers versus anything else. We haven't seen any examples in Lore of potions expiring. Spells and the like require preparation, study, practice etc in the lore.

You mean items comparable to spells and abilities? How about the wormhole generator? Other than that, play Vanilla. Engineering items in PvP decided a lot of fights. They didn't only tip the balance, they made some fights outright unwinable.

Also, since engineer and tinker are not classes but professions, why would they have to be en par?

And, why wouldn't a Tinker require you to collect reagents and materials? What does he do, pull them out of his ass? Or are we talking gameplay mechanics vs lore? Lore-wise, hunters need ammo. Warrios and the like have to tend to their armour. Or have someone do that for them.

I am not applying different standards to Tinkers, dude. All they can do is already in game. They build weapons and gadgets. What do they build them out off, if not metal, wood, leather?

With expiring I meant 'consumed when used.', my bad, bad wording.

And while spells do require practice, they don't require preparation. This is WarCraft, not Dungeons and Dragons. Mages can cast their spells whenever and wherever they want, as often as they want. No spell slots.

[Lochton]

Health postions expire and require preperation. A healer does not.

Engineering items expire and require preperation. A Tinker does not.

[Skulltaker]

Engineering items expire and require preperation. A Tinker does not.

Got a source for that?