anyone else think blizzard are gonna go all out next xp?

[OpieOP]

You clearly don't understand what RNG means. Prior to Cata/Wotlk, your RNG was praying specific item drops, while you could never see item you wanted while doing the same content over and over again. Then you had to win it as others wanted that item too.

Chance of you getting specific item was damn low.

You know that it is still rng to even recieve a Item with personal loot yes? You're not just handed an item every time you down a boss or do something otherwise stupid. Imagine being a niche class which needs one specific item that isn't dropping for everybody, your chances on getting hands on that item will be very very low, lower than they'd been before the complete personalization of loot. Imagine being a class that needs a specific item to be viable in the current mythic level of a raid, since the raid just released its heroic version people have low item level, now that Item which you'll undoubtly need drops, but not for you, but instead billy who doesn't needs it, he can't trade it to you because a) he hasn't gotten baseline ilvl in that slot or b) it forged. You're more prone to rng fucking with you than ever before.

And the problem is your obsession with BiS. You don't need to have bis gear to clear all content including mythic raids. All you need is to get upgrades.

BiS was a goal as any other in a game. Do you play this game without setting goals? One of the best things were getting that BiS Stuff and being able to not worry about gear anymore and therefore stop grinding and just do stuff you've wanted to do.

[Nyel]

It was blasted at release, and 90 % of what people are complaining about BfA except story was introduced in Legion. I wonder from where comes this perception that Legion was good.

Well, the best indicator for Legion being good is Blizzard's revenue and profit during that time. Legion outpeaked BfA in every regard and accumulated a lot more money for Blizzard than BfA does. BfA is a year old and the last two quarters have been disastrous for Blizzard when you compare it to the same timeframe during Legion (or even WoD, which puts BfA even under a worse light).

[kaminaris]

You know that it is still rng to even recieve a Item with personal loot yes? You're not just handed an item every time you down a boss or do something otherwise stupid. Imagine being a niche class which needs one specific item that isn't dropping for everybody, your chances on getting hands on that item will be very very low, lower than they'd been before the complete personalization of loot. Imagine being a class that needs a specific item to be viable in the current mythic level of a raid, since the raid just released its heroic version people have low item level, now that Item which you'll undoubtly need drops, but not for you, but instead billy who doesn't needs it, he can't trade it to you because a) he hasn't gotten baseline ilvl in that slot or b) it forged. You're more prone to rng fucking with you than ever before.

Like it was always, except there were 2 items to divide over 40 people and smart loot didn't exist so going full cloth squad could give you leather armors.

Imagine you don't need any specific item. Like Method clearing raids in HC level gear. That kind of problem is players alone, not blizzard, people like these think they need to have this trinket or they will not clear raids. No, this isn't the case.
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-vs-master-loot-bfa/

BiS was a goal as any other in a game. Do you play this game without setting goals? One of the best things were getting that BiS Stuff and being able to not worry about gear anymore and therefore stop grinding and just do stuff you've wanted to do.

Gear is just a tool. My goals are to simply go higher in M+ or kill mythic bosses.

[Akka]

Well, the best indicator for Legion being good is Blizzard's revenue and profit during that time. Legion outpeaked BfA in every regard and accumulated a lot more money for Blizzard than BfA does. BfA is a year old and the last two quarters have been disastrous for Blizzard when you compare it to the same timeframe during Legion (or even WoD, which puts BfA even under a worse light).

It proves that Legion was better than BfA, not that it was good. Eating half-moldy bread is better than eating shit, that doesn't make it a feast.

[SaneOstrich]

It's not the DEVs that are at fault. The game is operating extremely well. It's the Story Creators (or what it's called) that is the cause.

No one asked for Traitorfang and Paine to mount a rebellion.
No one asked for Horde rebels to work with Alliance.
No one asked for Alliance to be allowed to set foot (and live to tell the tale) in another Horde capital.

It's all down to the quality (and faverotism) of the team that write the story.

To each there own. Giving the poor premise they where forced to work with (the done to death faction conflict) I think they did an amazing job and depth of the lore is better then it has ever been.
I also believe that players that care much for the lore are a minority, most players just want their themepark fix.

[Nyel]

It proves that Legion was better than BfA, not that it was good. Eating half-moldy bread is better than eating shit, that doesn't make it a feast.

If we go by that and even WoD is outperforming BfA, how bad must BfA be then? That’s my point. Legion wasn’t the best expansion yet it did a lot of things right especially in 7.1 and even 7.2 (minus time gating). 7.3 in my opinion was awful but the first year of Legion was extraordinarily well received at that time (again, minus the 7.2 time gating and maybe the nature of rng legendaries).

[Doffen]

It proves that Legion was better than BfA, not that it was good. Eating half-moldy bread is better than eating shit, that doesn't make it a feast.

Legion was a feast, a good feast where you invited 1000 people and 10.000 came to party and eat.

Legion was better than both WoD and BfA, every statistic says so. Polls, revenue, critics etc.

[Resheph]

It was blasted at release, and 90 % of what people are complaining about BfA except story was introduced in Legion. I wonder from where comes this perception that Legion was good.

No it wasn't. everybody that was playing the game was enthusiastic about Legion. Your attempt to rewrite history is either from malice or from a very faulty memory.

You are confusing the 200 ex-players that post 50 times a day on MMO champ to whine and complain about everything WOW but haven't logged in in more than 4 years as valid opinions on an expansion.
And a few people that were playing were complaining that they were not guaranteed Legendary drops, but they were by and large laughed away.

[Doffen]

If we go by that and even WoD is outperforming BfA, how bad must BfA be then? That’s my point. Legion wasn’t the best expansion yet it did a lot of things right especially in 7.1 and even 7.2 (minus time gating). 7.3 in my opinion was awful but the first year of Legion was extraordinarily well received at that time (again, minus the 7.2 time gating and maybe the nature of rng legendaries).

Indeed it was. Not sure why people are trying to say that 7.3 was that good, when Legion was better received from the get go until 7.2.

7.2 was shite, Broken Chore is probably the worst of all the midway/endgame zones they have ever implemented in the game. And 7.3 introduced more rng than it was before that because of RNGrucible. If you actually played Legion you would have 12-15 leggos when 7.2 came. Legiondaries was hard to get the first 3 months, sure, the criticism is spot on, but after the took away the "max 4 leggo" thingy you started to pile up on those Legiondaries.

Artifact weapon from launch until 7.2, best character progression system we have had, it was generally well received at that time. Some people might disagree, fine, but it was good :P

[Xath]

I had to login on my Monk to check that, but you also kinda forgot, you have OPS from:
Lady Ashvane - Head
Blackwater behemoth - Chest

So you could have got 430 first week - 2 pieces. 445 Chest the same week Mythic was opened up. Now either you gamble, 33% chance is still big chance or save up for specific one.

Here, sims for WW monk:

430 is garbage stop being dishonest. If you want to include raid gear add that none of the raid gear shoulders have ops

Also sims in a vaccum don't work you have to sim multiple azerite piece combos because it's going to show you the piece with dance plus fox as being best however you only want one of each of those traits plus a pressure point with 3 fofs. Stop trying to post sims when you have no freaking clue what you're doing.

- - - Updated - - -

Legion was a feast, a good feast where you invited 1000 people and 10.000 came to party and eat.

Legion was better than both WoD and BfA, every statistic says so. Polls, revenue, critics etc.

It wasn't it introduced the rental gear system and uncapped grinds the burnout in legion was on a level never seen before at the top end and has continued in bfa.

- - - Updated - - -

Indeed it was. Not sure why people are trying to say that 7.3 was that good, when Legion was better received from the get go until 7.2.

7.2 was shite, Broken Chore is probably the worst of all the midway/endgame zones they have ever implemented in the game. And 7.3 introduced more rng than it was before that because of RNGrucible. If you actually played Legion you would have 12-15 leggos when 7.2 came. Legiondaries was hard to get the first 3 months, sure, the criticism is spot on, but after the took away the "max 4 leggo" thingy you started to pile up on those Legiondaries.

Artifact weapon from launch until 7.2, best character progression system we have had, it was generally well received at that time. Some people might disagree, fine, but it was good :P

It was the highest rate of burnout for raiders in history by a significant margin especially the mythic helya grind to get the damage increase for her.

[Akka]

No it wasn't. everybody that was playing the game was enthusiastic about Legion. Your attempt to rewrite history is either from malice or from a very faulty memory.

Right back at you, mate.

I was right there when people complained about :

- Legiondaries that were required to have the classes function adequately, hence being at the mercy of the RNG god to be able to be efficient.
- Mindless AP farm (that's also what people complain about BfA).
- War/Titan forged items that were a Skinner box pushing people to endlessly farm to get the grace of the RNG god (again) and devalued raid gear (that's also a complaint about BfA).
- Being alt-unfriendly because all this farming was to be redone on alt (again, a common BfA complaint).
- Boring, repetitive, pointless WQ (same complaint as BfA, again).
- Colossal burnout of raiders (lots of dead top guilds).

You're the one with a short memory and rewriting history. I really wonder from which alternate dimension all these claims that "Legion was super popular at the beginning" come, considering how hated it was initially.
Legion was blasted well into its second tier. It was only afterward, when people had played for months and had by then their artifact weapons with all the required traits and all the legendaries needed for their class, and that Blizzard had added tons of changes to lessen the problems, that complaints lessened (and switcher over to how Broken Shore and Argus were shit instead).

The only aspects that were really positively received were Class Halls (though there were some irritation about them being time gated), M+ (I absolutely hate M+, but I know it pleased a lot of people) and the fact that we actually fought the Legion instead of either Marvel alternate universe bullshit or forced idiotic faction wars.

As for the "everybody loved Legion", what we do know is that Blizzard let it leak that they went above 10 million at release, like WoD, but afterward didn't said anything (so we know for sure it wasn't that rosy) and then the amount of activity was somewhat comparable to WoD (so it must have crashed just as hard after the initial spike). That's how loved and successful Legion really was, outside the fanboys circle.

[Zenfoldor]

Alts? Dude, switching specs was pain in the ass, let alone playing alts. You also had to fill relic slots as well.

And why it was shit? Because artifact weapon was so powerful that getting 3 AP levels equaled upgrading whole equipment by 1-3 ilvls. At the beginning it was even worse.

Also, it was there for every expansion I have played. Rose tinted glasses are especially strong in wow community. That or terrible memory.

Well, personally I loved Legion and very much dislike BFA.

Anecdotally, all my friends quit at the beginning of BFA, but played thru most of Legion. Is that BFA's fault, Legion's fault, or completely random? I can't say. My guess is BFA. I think as much as people complained about legendaries, they were exciting and gave us a reason to do all the content. I think Island Expeditions and Warfronts were pointless(besides the arbitrary quest reward for warfronts) and boring, and they spent way too much time developing and pushing these wasted opportunities. I think that without the chance at a long term reward, emissaries, daily heroics, were not worth grinding for many, which led to relatively pointless and thin daily content early on(with little/no consequence for not doing it) which caused a lot of my friends to quit. Removing set bonuses from raids, removing long term rewards and replacing them with nothing and expecting rep/ap to fill the gap(resources that we all believed would eventually have a catchup mechanism that trivialized the grind, usually right after it completed by the mainstream) felt bad. Rep/AP was not compelling.

IMHO, Legion was well thought out and designed, it made the right moves at the right time. BFA made blunders from the the start and was too slow to react. Once that is known, many will just wait for the next xpak and play the competition's games.

BFA had good points. The mythic difficulty of dungeons at the start was good. The questing was okay, but not as good as Legion. The main cities are amazing, and the graphics tech they introduced is great. Art and music were exceptional. Gameplay, specifically the trimming of certain specs, the reward structure, the new instance types(expeditions, warfronts), and end game systems(azerite, rep), were all lackluster and/or far worse than any previous xpak imo. By the time we got fixes(if we ever did)....well I don't know. It would have been nice to get those fixes before the xpak launched.

[lockybalboa]

Yeah, they are gonna go all out on store mounts and gatings for sure

[glowpipe]

If Classic turns out to be a success it might even take more resources from retail.

This might start a trend of making Classic/TBC/Wrath.... servers which will take away from retail development.

I though so aswell, but there is hardly any revenue for classic. Only subs. Retail has tokens, ingame store, char services etc. And ofourse the biggest money maker of them all, The expansion license itself. Bfa at had sold 3.4 million copies by day one of bfa. thats 3 400 000 times $49.99 if you assume everyone bought standard edition which they didn't, many bought digital deluxe. Thats a minimum of like $170 000 000 from just selling bfa. How will classic, or tbc or wrath be able to pull in anywhere close to that amount of money ? over 15 000 000 subs, and thats never gonna happen. Yes, classic was cheaper to make then bfa, but they still made a large large profit on bfa, they not gonna make much on classic, seeing most people who gonna play it already play retail and it won't get that many new players Based on solid data points, tehy only set up like 25 classic servers world wide. And this is why blizzard would never let classic take away from retail. Retail is their money maker, Classic is not. And that is why i went from hating on classic, cause i tought it would take away from retail, to basically ignore it since it can't really hurt retail. Blizzard still can tho, if they don't fix their shit. Retail can still easily die. But not because of classic

[justandulas]

Legion was, by far, the best expac since the good old days

The only people who really hated it were alt-oholics

I play one toon at a time and I had a blast with legion.

Only about 1/10 of my mythic raiding guild even plays bfa anymore; we were together since vanilla but couldn’t survive bfa up til the 2nd tier without losing half the raid (including me the MT)

We had an OVER abundance of raiders in legion. In bfa we practically are begging people to help

[cocomen2]

I still think Weapon artifacts should have never been retired or should have been replaced by something just like it.

you have my vote man,same feeling.

Anyway they ruined basic gear by M+ :

Before its was Iron sword 120 ilvl = stale item that you want and dream to get, all "Iron sword"s have same stats and ilvl.
Now its Iron sword with 120 ilvl+ (125-140-160ilvl) = you had "Iron sword"(120 ilvl), but all other players can have maybe even better "Iron sword"s 120ilvl+ and you start green with envy if someone has even 5 ilvls more than you, so its forces you to farm OVER and OVER untill you get Iron sword of needed ilvl. Feeling of getting some actual prize for yours blood and sweat is lost, its just over 9000 of iron swords.

[Tarx]

I agree with you . I see the same good bad expansion so its time for the next expansion to be good .

[Ardreth]

I think they went all out in Legion. BFA feels kind of meh compared to that. I hope they go "all out" next expansion again.

[Zenfoldor]

Right back at you, mate.

I was right there when people complained about :

- Legiondaries that were required to have the classes function adequately, hence being at the mercy of the RNG god to be able to be efficient.
- Mindless AP farm (that's also what people complain about BfA).
- War/Titan forged items that were a Skinner box pushing people to endlessly farm to get the grace of the RNG god (again) and devalued raid gear (that's also a complaint about BfA).
- Being alt-unfriendly because all this farming was to be redone on alt (again, a common BfA complaint).
- Boring, repetitive, pointless WQ (same complaint as BfA, again).
- Colossal burnout of raiders (lots of dead top guilds).

You're the one with a short memory and rewriting history. I really wonder from which alternate dimension all these claims that "Legion was super popular at the beginning" come, considering how hated it was initially.
Legion was blasted well into its second tier. It was only afterward, when people had played for months and had by then their artifact weapons with all the required traits and all the legendaries needed for their class, and that Blizzard had added tons of changes to lessen the problems, that complaints lessened (and switcher over to how Broken Shore and Argus were shit instead).

The only aspects that were really positively received were Class Halls (though there were some irritation about them being time gated), M+ (I absolutely hate M+, but I know it pleased a lot of people) and the fact that we actually fought the Legion instead of either Marvel alternate universe bullshit or forced idiotic faction wars.

As for the "everybody loved Legion", what we do know is that Blizzard let it leak that they went above 10 million at release, like WoD, but afterward didn't said anything (so we know for sure it wasn't that rosy) and then the amount of activity was somewhat comparable to WoD (so it must have crashed just as hard after the initial spike). That's how loved and successful Legion really was, outside the fanboys circle.

Yes, but the reaction for BFA has been pure dislike from most of the community. Do you say that the dislike for Legion was as bad as it is for BFA? I read the same forums as you. There were actually people standing up in mass numbers and defending Legion and there was a contingency that were Legion fans. BFA started toxic from day one and only got worse imo. Now that could of course be from the community changing for the worse, or it could be that BFA actually had some serious issues.

People are always going to complain. However, in my anecdotal experience, Legion was one of the most liked xpaks on this forum while it was actually live(meaning people always hate the current xpak, but the hate for Legion was tempered and calm compared to all of BFA, Cata, late WoD). BFA imo is and was on the opposite end of that spectrum. Fan reaction has been seemingly terrible, way worse than Legion. That's just my opinion, of course I can't prove it in any way. It is purely anecdotal. I defended Legion staunchly on this forum for years because I believe in it. I can't defend BFA.

[Licketysplit77]

I have been thinking about this for a couple years now
Its blizzard either NOT willing or NOT able to dish out the resources needed for a banging xpack like legion.
So the future of wow seems to be a lazy expack followed by a content filled xpack followed by another lazy one etc

it took you years of thinking and this is what you came up with. :-)