Sylvanas And Baine Are Both Wrong

[Ehrenpanzer]

The Horde started the War in Blasted Lands. There i said it.

Hint: As a Horde Fanboy you should NEVER engage in the "but they did it first" game. It may take some time but in the end you will lose every single fucking time.

Technically, it was Medivh (a human) that started the wars by opening the portal in the first place...

[mickybrighteyes]

I mean, that is how the holocaust initially began. First they tried mass deporting Jewish people and other "undesirables", but when that proved impossible....yeah. There's a reason its called the FINAL Solution.

thank you for pointing out that Sarcasm needs to be more obviously identified

[KaPe]

Technically, it was Medivh (a human) that started the wars by opening the portal in the first place...

"Technically", it was Sargeras. Besides, "opening the portal" doesn't mean anything - he might have opened the doors, but it was the orcs who were the genocidal alien invaders.

[mickybrighteyes]

"Technically", it was Sargeras. Besides, "opening the portal" doesn't mean anything - he might have opened the doors, but it was the orcs who were the genocidal alien invaders.

that were made genocidal invaders due to Kiljaeden who only found them because the Draenei lead him to the planet...

Also Medivh was only possessed by Sargeras because he'd been drawn to Azeroth long ago...

So how far back do you wish to go or do you want to conveniently only wish to stop when we can pass blame to orcs and ignore the buck can keep getting passed back to the fall of argus.

[GrinningMan]

I think it was wrong for Baine to give Derek to the Alliance, as it was a clear security risk. At the same time, Derek shouldn't have been enslaved (as it pretty much breaks the one rule regarding undead is that they can do what they want as long as they don't threaten the Forsaken), it should have been "Hey, join the Horde and continue your unlife, or die a second time." Because, if Sylvanas will do it to one raised Alliance person, who is to say she won't do it to others? Thomas Zelling for one was perfectly willing to be loyal to the Horde until the situation with Derek. Whose to say that, with positive reinforcement instead of torture, Derek would have willingly join the Horde. A long shot, sure, but still.

BiG BrAiN ThUnKs.

[turboether]

Baine is a weak leader. The kind that dies a martyr and inspiration despite his legacy justifying the end of the lives of his own people because doing otherwise would perturb the enemy he is at war with, who have no such qualms with taking them.

A snivelling diplomat with the moral high ground. Thus, a hero.

[Androsobi]

Baine did nothing wrong

[Mardux]

As I said, that's exactly the kind of attitude I want to have from the Alliance! I want the Alliance to commit genocide, so that as a Horde player I would have more reasons to fight them.

Fuck trying to make peace with the mongrels. Burn cities with civilians inside them, put children to concentration camps, torture innocents.

Isn't that last bit SOP for ya'll though?

[Feanoro]

They chose to drink the blood. And you are blaming political refugees for fleeing Satan.

One of the key values of the Horde is that they are never wrong, ergo the Draenei that were massacred for trying to flee for their lives, hide, and live quietly and peacefully are wrong.

[Soon-TM]

Baine did nothing wrong from an Alliance PoV

Fixed it for you

Infracted.

[Tarba]

One of the key values of the Horde is that they are never wrong, ergo the Draenei that were massacred for trying to flee for their lives, hide, and live quietly and peacefully are wrong.

Well next time that you are targeted by an all powerfull corruptrice entity, destroyer of thousand worlds and that you flee from it in your transdimensional spaceship. Warn your new neighbourgs who are still living in mud tente.

it can help

[KaPe]

Well next time that you are targeted by an all powerfull corruptrice entity, destroyer of thousand worlds and that you flee from it in your transdimensional spaceship. Warn your new neighbourgs who are still living in mud tente.

it can help

Yeah, you better do that - otherwise, the "neighbours" might slaughter you and build a road out of your bones. Or they'll just slaughter you anyway, without any demonic influence, because they'll trust some random orc stranger and his lies.

[Aenigma84]

Well, duh.

But just to play the advocatus diaboli: Sylvanas would argue that the Horde's survival is more important than anything. That the Forsaken should prefer a little uncertainty about their precious freedoms over not existing at all due to being eradicated by the Alliance. In her mind, enslaving Derek would have been the only way to save the Horde, so every truly loyal Horde member should accept is as a necessity.

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

[Agartha]

Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.

Ben Franklin rolls in his grave everytime someone thinks this quote is the definitive answer to incredibly complex issues.

[mickybrighteyes]

They chose to drink the blood. And you are blaming political refugees for fleeing Satan.

As directed by a leader who was manipulated by Satan's right hand.

And you are blaming political refugees for fleeing Satan.

When those fleeing brought their baggage to a new group unrelated to the events... yes.

[Soon-TM]

Ben Franklin rolls in his grave everytime someone thinks this quote is the definitive answer to incredibly complex issues.

Yet it definitely applies to stuff like the Patriot Act, the FISA and many other things from RL politics. Fortunately it doesn't to Azeroth - not yet, at least

[Aeula]

Yarp. The Horde is a sinking ship, no matter the outcome of the civil war it's completely fucked beyond redemption.

It's an unstable mess that has an identity crisis followed by a civil war every few years, it won't be healed until all its major characters are dead or the faction is disbanded (Disbanded, not merged with the Alliance).

[Oneirophobia]

The Horde started the War in Blasted Lands. There i said it.

Hint: As a Horde Fanboy you should NEVER engage in the "but they did it first" game. It may take some time but in the end you will lose every single fucking time.

Wasn’t that the burning legion?

Not trying to defend orcs because they’re a lost cause but I’ll be pedantic.


On topic, the forsaken and sylvanas are suffering from majorly inconsistent writing. One minute they’re free willed and the next they’re enslaved with no indication of which is which in any given scenario. The night elves raised were supposedly “free willed” and joined sylvanas (after she killed them...) because they felt betrayed by Elune, see Delaryn Summermoon and Sira whatever the warden. I personally think how they’re handling “enslaved” vs “free willed” is poor as heck and leading to all sorts of confusion.

We have no idea who is controlled, who isn’t, who is loyal, who’s not, why sylvanas suddenly wants to be like arthas when she traditionally hated everything about that, why “someone as smart as” sylvanas would raise someone she just murdered and trust them when that never seems to work out for her, when sylvanas made the leap between forsaken to scourge, how much power she has, how she’s maintaining control over her subjects and how many that actually is, why the forsaken worship her when it’s no secret at all that she’ll kill them and never put their needs before even the dirt on her boots, it’s just a total confusing mess.

[Aenigma84]

Ben Franklin rolls in his grave everytime someone thinks this quote is the definitive answer to incredibly complex issues.

wel he did have a point at the time

[mickybrighteyes]

Lovely. So people who exercise their freedom of choice and thus decide to complete one genocide and get well on their way to a second genocide are blameless but people who flee from disaster and have that disaster chase them are obviously monsters. Noted.

If the orcs spontaneously acted without the intervention of say... Sargeras' second in command manipulating them...

You want to say humans weren't responsible for orcs coming in cause of medivh but you want to squarely blame orcs when they WERE used by Kil'jaeden?