No Ret Pallies

[Malix Farwin]

This is definitely a troll post. Plenty of groups will take a Ret Paladin if they are a good player.

Ret
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8weHujw9M2A

vs.

Warrior
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lnB-meEohms

vs.

Rogue

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyORcBt0jI

Shadow is the only one doing remotely well as hybrid and they can fall off if the fight goes on too long.

Shadow
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OwyORcBt0jI

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Only the very top of the top Mythic raiidng guilds have access to a full roster of 20-24 really good players where there aren't somebody who's obviously better or worse than eachother. We're talking top 50 guilds in the world here, if not higher.

Do you actually think that you're EVER going to find 40 equally good players in Classic? Yeah, being good in Classic is obviously much easier than being good in any post WotLK raiding, but there's still going to be a huge variance in skill levels within each guild.

Yeah, a top performing Mage or Fury Warr is the most optimal Dps, but you're delusional if you think a shitty Mage is going to be worth more to your guild than a god tier Shadow Priest or Boomkin. You should not be comparing the strength of each class in a vacuum without regard for player skill, because NOBODY in the game has that kind of choice when it comes to recruitment. Good players don't just appear out of thin air when you need them, so when they do appear (and happen to be playing a less than ideal spec), you would be batshit retarded to decline them because of their class, just so you can get a shitty Mage instead.

a shitty mage? how hard do you think mage is in Classic. it would actually be harder to be shitty in classic. You can click your whole rotation and do more than a ret.

[Drusin]

It's your choice to play what you want, but if I see one "no one will invite me I'm ret" thread I will show them no mercy

[gaymer77]

Just FYI in case any newbies are coming to classic or returning vanilla people hoping this time "it will be different". It won't be. Ret pallies will still not be allowed in 5 mans and definitely won't get any raid spots. Just be warned if you intent to spec ret be prepared to play solo. You will also not be appreciated Q'ing into BGs, and definitely won't be getting into any premades.

One will be needed for improved ret aura & improved blessing of might (although that can be taken by any spec paladin). Just like one "prot" pally will be needed for blessing of kings, reduced CD on blessing of protection/freedom, blessing of sanctuary, & improved concentration aura. Then again some weird hybrid healer could spec like THIS (missing some healer focused ones but picks up all the mandatory buffs that the prot & ret tree offers) or THIS (only missing holy shock & extra crit from holy spells in this build)and still be able to effectively heal in a raid setting while freeing up a dps/tank slot for someone more viable.

Whether you want to admit it or not, pallies who weren't holy in vanilla were subpar and generally not a welcome class UNLESS they were holy, "knew someone", or you just wanted to get the certain buffs out of the way with a wasted raid slot while letting your other holy pallies go deep holy instead of a holy/ret/prot hybrid.

a shitty mage? how hard do you think mage is in Classic. it would actually be harder to be shitty in classic. You can click your whole rotation and do more than a ret.

Pretty much the bolded part. Their rotation was keybind every button for Frostbolt & then roll your head on the keyboard.

[Oozlz]

One will be needed for improved ret aura & improved blessing of might (although that can be taken by any spec paladin).




Pretty much the bolded part. Their rotation was keybind every button for Frostbolt & then roll your head on the keyboard.

Improved ret aura isn't worth it.

Also if you think you are gonna get away with only casting frost bolt as a mage till AQ, You are probably gonna parse around 70% or less. You will be using Blizzard, Arcane Explosion, Cone of Cold, Scorch and Fireblast in both MC and BWL. (Fireball and Arcane Missiles in BWL also).

[gaymer77]

Improved ret aura isn't worth it.

Also if you think you are gonna get away with only casting frost bolt as a mage till AQ, You are probably gonna parse around 70% or less. You will be using Blizzard, Arcane Explosion, Cone of Cold, Scorch and Fireblast in both MC and BWL. (Fireball and Arcane Missiles in BWL also).

Yes because bosses that are immune to fire damage are going to take tons of damage from fireblast & scorch.....

[Kanadei]

Yes because bosses that are immune to fire damage are going to take tons of damage from fireblast & scorch.....

They arent all immune bro, not by a longshot

[Thomygnomi]

Most people overrated the difference even the spec is doing in classic
example 1:
https://de.classic.wowhead.com/talen...52051330001051
You could offtank a little als paladin, but only lost 5% holy crit. Same healing capabilities as a full spec'd holy

So hybrids are a thing and they can be really useful

[Volitar]

Good thing PVE is easy and you don't need to minmax 40 people to kill 15 year old content with all strats known.

[gaymer77]

They arent all immune bro, not by a longshot

The fact that several bosses in MC & BWL are immune and many of the others have a high fire resistance (meaning reduced fire damage) means you shouldn't be putting fire spells into your rotation in MC or BWL. Did you even play vanilla or are you just echoing what you read somewhere?

[Ogarash]

The fact that several bosses in MC & BWL are immune and many of the others have a high fire resistance (meaning reduced fire damage) means you shouldn't be putting fire spells into your rotation in MC or BWL. Did you even play vanilla or are you just echoing what you read somewhere?

This. Bringing anything firebased into MC and BWL is just silly. Which is one of the reasons I adore what Vanilla was a about. You shouldn't be able to kill a fire elemental with a fireball or anything else firebased. ( if anything that should amplify it's damage ). Unless it's fel fire

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They arent all immune bro, not by a longshot

They are not all immune, you are correct. When raiding away from BWL, you, if you were a mage, should go Firespecc (arcane/fire) instead of frost (arcane/frost), since the DPS output was so much bigger. Especially when you got into the sp/crit ratios you could get in BWL/AQ gear. But attacking dragons and fire/volcano elementals with fire is silly. They are made of the stuff...

[Revamp Man]

Meh, Feral is fine with pretty good dps (on par with locks and over hunter). And 3% crit for your horde of wars and rogues is pretty neat. On a side note, powershift macro is even easier on classic than the old system.

I will gladly accept outcasts in my groups and guild. Classic is about the community. Having farmed MC/BWL/AQ40 (Cthun on farm), i firmly believe thant you do not need to stack mage / rogue / war and priests to roll. 40 is a big number. And what hybrids don't bring on a DPS / HPS meter, they often bring it in utility for the rest of the raid and actually making things much smoother. It might be different for old naxx, but i have no experience there.

I still remember my friends story about how he was pulled into a molten core farm run as a ret paladin and was told that he can read as long as he knows how to buff and throw out off heels and for a majority of it he was doing just that until the raid leader was calling out for that last 5% on Ragnar Rose he equipped his DPS two-hander and went in and just started hitting the boss

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So Ret paladins are going to be so widely detested because warriors end up doing about 20% more damage than them in BWL Gear and about 16% more in Naxx gear? Keep in mind that the guy wasn't even using Exorcism in the Naxx version which he should've.

I'd say that's quite stronger than what you guys have been implying. In a raid of 40 players I don't think it will be uncommon at all for a guild to have a ret paladin in there. Hell swap out a dps for a ret paladin and replace a holy paladin with a holy priest and keep the blessings sounds like a fair exchange to me. Take an insignificant hit to your raid dps and get a stronger healer. Bonus points is that's one less dps competing for the one handers and they also don't want as much of the hit gear either.

If you care so much the lost dps from switching to a single ret paladin in your raid then you better also be recruiting only the optimal races for each dps class you're bringing. The dps loss from not having optimal races would end up being more than swapping a melee out for a ret.

one of the guilds that cleared naxx in vanilla had a shadow priest in their raid constantly and people would argue that a shadow priest is essentially ret paladin because his DPS was s*** he was the most geared Shadow priest that they could find but his DPS was still s*** though the point back then wasn't really hey we need 40 geared players to be able to down a single boss in this raid it was more about community and they kept him because he was their friend and the best priests they can find

[Oozlz]

Most people overrated the difference even the spec is doing in classic
example 1:
https://de.classic.wowhead.com/talen...52051330001051
You could offtank a little als paladin, but only lost 5% holy crit. Same healing capabilities as a full spec'd holy

So hybrids are a thing and they can be really useful

If you think giving up 5% chance for your heals to heal for more AND 5% chance for your heals to cost 0 mana is worth w.e else you specced into....

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The fact that several bosses in MC & BWL are immune and many of the others have a high fire resistance (meaning reduced fire damage) means you shouldn't be putting fire spells into your rotation in MC or BWL. Did you even play vanilla or are you just echoing what you read somewhere?

You don't outright spam fire spells. You fill gaps where you cant use a full cast frost bolt with scorches or fire blasts. Same if you have to move. It adds up and can be the difference between being the top dps mage or bottom on your MC run. If you think I'm wrong look at legacy logs, It will be the same in Classic.

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I still remember my friends story about how he was pulled into a molten core farm run as a ret paladin and was told that he can read as long as he knows how to buff and throw out off heels and for a majority of it he was doing just that until the raid leader was calling out for that last 5% on Ragnar Rose he equipped his DPS two-hander and went in and just started hitting the boss

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one of the guilds that cleared naxx in vanilla had a shadow priest in their raid constantly and people would argue that a shadow priest is essentially ret paladin because his DPS was s*** he was the most geared Shadow priest that they could find but his DPS was still s*** though the point back then wasn't really hey we need 40 geared players to be able to down a single boss in this raid it was more about community and they kept him because he was their friend and the best priests they can find

Except shadow priest brings a usefull debuff, Ret does not.

[swineflu]

[Laurathansal]

Although the statement that they will not be "allowed" is a bit extreme, the core of the statement is true - Ret pallies, along with some other specs, will not be getting invited to pugs by anyone with any knowledge of the game at all. Their performance is entirely unacceptable when you will have multiple superior classes requesting to join as well.

If you want to go with friends, thats entirely their call, and yours. But for a pug, its not like retail where you say "hmmm, he will be 5-10% below a mage, but thats no worries, its not Mythic progression" - instead its "hmmm, a ret pally or one of the two mages. The ret pally will be doing 80% less dmg compared to either mage, hmmmmm"

Let me try and put this in perspective:

A group of 1 tank, 1 healer, and 1 mage would do MORE dmg vs a group with 1 tank, 1 healer, and 3 ret pallies.

This is highly dependent on context. When vs a large group of enemies sure I can agree 1 mage does more damage than a paladin (not 3 paladins sorry). But versus single targets and low health mobs that need to die quick, paladins are better. There are many encounters where paladins can excel. Sure, in most DPS contexts, mages will be good, but the ability to have a retridin swap to a tank set and AOE tank efficiently and then return to dps afterwards is amazing and only people WITHOUT experience in raid leading (excluding the top world guilds) think that you should only bring the best pure dps classes to raids.

Sure, the ideal comp in a raid will have more mages, rogues, etc, but having 1 retri pala in a raid is a bonus, not a penalty!

[Kanadei]

The fact that several bosses in MC & BWL are immune and many of the others have a high fire resistance (meaning reduced fire damage) means you shouldn't be putting fire spells into your rotation in MC or BWL. Did you even play vanilla or are you just echoing what you read somewhere?

I played mage for 8 years, including doing MC as fire. It's not hard to dip 5 points in frost for imp frostbolt and use that during rag/ony/whichever other ones are immune.

I'm not advocating doing the same now, considering how much more we know about optimal builds, but pretending everything in mc resists fire spells is disingenuous.

[jackofwind]

I still remember my friends story about how he was pulled into a molten core farm run as a ret paladin and was told that he can read as long as he knows how to buff and throw out off heels and for a majority of it he was doing just that until the raid leader was calling out for that last 5% on Ragnar Rose he equipped his DPS two-hander and went in and just started hitting the boss

And blew up all the melee because he had a mana bar.

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You don't outright spam fire spells. You fill gaps where you cant use a full cast frost bolt with scorches or fire blasts. Same if you have to move. It adds up and can be the difference between being the top dps mage or bottom on your MC run. If you think I'm wrong look at legacy logs, It will be the same in Classic.

Except you pretty much don't need to move as a caster on any bosses in MC except for Baron if you get the bomb, Gehennas' RoF which may not ever be on top of you, and Domo if the adds get crazily spread. Usually on those three bosses you'd never be moving anyways.

[Kanadei]

Except you pretty much don't need to move as a caster on any bosses in MC except for Baron if you get the bomb, Gehennas' RoF, and Domo if the adds get spread. Maybe Garr if your guild is potatoes.

I vaguely recall moving depending on where adds were on Rag so I could cast AE, or slightly on Lucifron if someone was out of decurse range.

[jackofwind]

I vaguely recall moving depending on where adds were on Rag so I could cast AE, or slightly on Lucifron if someone was out of decurse range.

I doubt that many guilds will even see the Sons spawn after their first couple of clears. Remember we'll be in 1.12 with DM gear available.

[Azsune]

one of the guilds that cleared naxx in vanilla had a shadow priest in their raid constantly and people would argue that a shadow priest is essentially ret paladin because his DPS was s*** he was the most geared Shadow priest that they could find but his DPS was still s*** though the point back then wasn't really hey we need 40 geared players to be able to down a single boss in this raid it was more about community and they kept him because he was their friend and the best priests they can find

Shadow weaving increased warlock DPS and every raid had 3-4 warlocks minimum. This meant that the shadow priests extremely low damage was offset by the 15% shadow damage debuff. Ret paladins increase holy damage done/taken so it really only benefits Paladins and priests doing holy damage and one of them takes a valuable debuff slot.

People were clearing MC in the end with 20 people from my guild instead of pugging the last slots. Sometimes it could be faster as looking for more could take a long time and loot would have to be split with none guildies as well. Optimal specs won't be needed and I am sure casual guilds will be willing to take boomkins/ret paladins and such. My guild allowed one Ret but he was also very geared and had Grand Marshal.

[Sweetdeal]

A Ret with lot of consumables can dps quite well and in PvP you oneshot poeple.

Not as good as a Warrior or rouge but dunno.