What is the point of raiding?

[Qnubi]

Just putting a smiley face at the end of your comments doesn't make you polite.

It still takes away tension.

Try telling someone he's an asshole with a smile and then with a serious expression. I bet 9/10 the smile response won't get you in trouble.

[anon5123]

Imagine thinking rpgs and arpg are the same genre. Arpg are a sub genre of rpg at best.

Do you consider diablo immortal the same game genre as Everquest or a MUD?

May as well claim that 1992 doom and gears of war are the same genre when there’s a big diff between FPS and third person shooters. Much like rpg vs arpg

RPGs are RPGs, FPSs are FPSs.

It's not an entirely different genre just because the gameplay is slightly different. Shoo, troll.

[justandulas]

RPGs are RPGs, FPSs are FPSs.

It's not an entirely different genre just because the gameplay is slightly different. Shoo, troll.

Different sub genres most definitely. You consider first person shooter and third person shooter the same genre?

Or Everquest and diablo immortal? You are lying to yourself

I like arpg and rpg. But there is a big difference between traditional rpg and arpg’s

[Marrilaife]

4.) Favoritism and clique-up inside of guilds.
5.) The guild doesn't have time or doesn't want to help people below +10 capability, causing gear gaps inside the main raid.
6.) Guild encouraging pugging in order to keep up with the M+ allstars inside the guild (see #4).

I don't get what are you saying, is it that some people don't have time to run m+ or that they aren't capable of doing +10 and need to be "boosted"? I mean even the worst raid logger that can clear heroic can clear +10 as well, so yeah, if the guild "doesn't wanna help them do +10" it's probably because they're already carrying them in the raid... Personally I dislike the big skill disparity that happens in some casual guilds where there are people who are blatantly dead weight.

An average mythic raider (meaning belonging in some world 1000 rank guild that gets cutting edge after 3 nerf waves 4-5 months in or so) can clear +10 no problem even with bad setup. I've seen people who tragicly underperform in raiding yet clear m+ just fine... maybe if they had to do a +20 they would flop, but +10 is no prob, you clear it even with several wipes.

Also a problem if the leadership of a guild is lazy, inept or cowardly and doesn't put rules then enforce them. Like list minimal amount of effort people need to do (ap wise, m+ wise) and punish the slackers, but on the other hand try to reign in the insane top end farmers who try to pressure the rest into putting the same nolife effort (or tell them straight up they should find a more hardcore guild because they clearly expect more than the guild goals are).

Before Legion what a raider "needed to do" was a fairly narrow bracket, since Legion the problem appeared there are rifts and conflicts between the people who expect to raidlog and people who expect to farm 20-40h a week as a norm. It's partially Blizzard's fault for creating this amazing opportunity for people to just "outfarm" their peers like in some Asian MMO, partially community's fault for ignoring the issue and believing it will solve itself, or that humans are flawless and resentment won't grow based on disparities within the team.

[cparle87]

Imagine thinking rpgs and arpg are the same genre. Arpg are a sub genre of rpg at best.

Do you consider diablo immortal the same game genre as Everquest or a MUD?

May as well claim that 1992 doom and gears of war are the same genre when there’s a big diff between FPS and third person shooters. Much like rpg vs arpg

ARPGs and RPGs aren't the same genre. Followed immediately by ARPGs are a subgenre of RPGs. The mental dissonance is real.

[CrawlFromThePit]

What exactly is the point in raiding when you have m+ ?! Unless of course you're precisely interested in the raiding experience.

If you play a class that can tank or heal, you can just spam m+ as either role, and get geared much faster and easier than by wiping in a raid for 4 hrs and not getting anything.

If your main spec is dps, and you're not interested in cutting edge content, but just some pvp on the side, then raiding is literally a waste of time for you. Just get a weapon for your tank/healer offspec, and jump into m+. Later on, you can even keep a 2nd set of gear in your inventory, to switch to.

In 4 hrs you can chain 5-6 m+ because you get groups almost instantly as tank/ healer, and no one cares about your rio score either.

"If you remove any possible reasons to enjoy raiding and assume all you do is wipe and get no drops, why raid?"

"If you consider only accidents, people dying and mechanical problems, why even own a car?"

"If you assume you're allergic and only consider the possible trouble of injuries and also picking up poop and being forced to walk outside, why even get a dog?"

"If you don't realize you have nothing interesting to say, what is there to stop you from disregarding important information to manufacture a bullshit argument and make a thread about it?"

[Tharkkun]

What exactly is the point in raiding when you have m+ ?! Unless of course you're precisely interested in the raiding experience.

If you play a class that can tank or heal, you can just spam m+ as either role, and get geared much faster and easier than by wiping in a raid for 4 hrs and not getting anything.

If your main spec is dps, and you're not interested in cutting edge content, but just some pvp on the side, then raiding is literally a waste of time for you. Just get a weapon for your tank/healer offspec, and jump into m+. Later on, you can even keep a 2nd set of gear in your inventory, to switch to.

In 4 hrs you can chain 5-6 m+ because you get groups almost instantly as tank/ healer, and no one cares about your rio score either.

It's a social event, something hard core PVP players will never understand. Overcoming things as a team instead of alienating your entire team in favor of yourself.

[thilicen]

For fun. Like the rest of the damned game.

[MoanaLisa]

To see the raid, experience the content and defeat the raid bosses. That's the point.

[Brewhan]

It used to because of best looking gear (before xmog killed it )/ best gear ( before M+ killed it ) / tier sets ( before BFA killed it ) / best trinkets ( still somewhat relevant)/

So basically now I guess just to see the new art and get some good trinkets lol

[Trend]

The problem in my eyes is that raiding has become fractured. Current Normal really has no purpose as most of your average guilds will progress Heroic, and LFR has even less of a purpose. It needs to be removed with just two difficulties again, Normal and Heroic. If they insist on a "story" mode raid difficulty, do LFR, Normal and Heroic with LFR rewarding only cosmetic gear or badge gear that you can save up for Normal raid preparation (e.g. lower ilevel than Normal).

Just my thoughts.

Objectively and verifiably, there are a lot of people doing all 4 difficulties so your whole argument falls apart. You also fail to address what would actually be better about the shit situation that existed in the past when so many guilds found normal too easy and heroic too hard.

[Spotnick]

This is a good example why M+ has ruined wow. The game should've stayed revolving around raiding, not M+. Clearly M+ is too lucrative a route to gear.

Not really. The gear dropping in mythic+ should be the best.. for mythic+, and the gear dropping in raids should be the best.. FOR RAIDS.

Same goes for PVP.

It's the "all gear can be used for anything" that is the problem. It should be usable but not optimal.

[Greyvax]

I think the idea is for people to do a combination of world content, dungeons and raiding. having multiple routes to gear up help you progress through each aspect of the game.

IIRC, a few years ago, people were crying about the "raid or die" mentality, which blizzard fixed with mythic dungeons (and eventually mythic+)

if you're upset that you only like one piece of that content, and are "forced" to do other parts of the game to "stay competitive", then that is a personal problem.

[Demeia]

I thought about that too. Current raids are convoluted with mechanics. Not all bosses, of course, stuff like Sivarra is mostly tank&spank, but then you have stuff like Azshara which is like an entire raid by itself, and quite frankly I cba with it. But I guess that as players in general become better at the game, Blizzard has to make it harder and harder in order to keep up with player potential skill.

Add to this the fact that as melee I can't see shit from all the pets and spell effects, and if I move the camera far away, I don't even know which one is my character.
Also, I'm kinda sick of running after bosses all over the map.

This is why raiding is grinding on my nerves.

The current model doesn't feel right. Your reward from killing a boss shouldn't be just satisfaction, there should be nice rewards such as loot. Yes, loot is just a tool but it was a nice added reward. Doesn't feel like the system is correct.

[Xirrohon]

The payoff difference between Raiding v M+ became really apparent to me this tier, especially with how bad M Ashvane has been with my guild.

[trapmaster]

I raid when Tiers effect on gears were a thing.

I raid when gears come with multiple sockets were a thing.

I raid when Loot such loot council/ Master loot/ other listed were a thing.

All those were being taken away is like taking my Satisfaction and Desire away right now.. ALL WATERED DOWN.

We used to be in blue gears to try overcome the challenge for raiding.. now it's all gone. Mythic+ giving you free candies gears and WF/TF craps. Most of people has lost desire to raid since things change and make it too easy.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

If you fixate more on the destination, in this case gear, than the journey itself you're bound to have a dull experience in most things.

[Jotaux]

I mean the point of raiding is to kill the last boss. Why do people play any game?

[AdmiralGlitter]

M18+ seems a bit excessive in your mindset. While I do agree that mythic dungeons should have a higher threshold to get heroic/mythic quality raid loot that seems a bit extreme. It does become disheartening when you run keys and have no gear beyond azerite or maybe a weapon to look for dropping in your weekly raid nights.

[Huzzaa]

This is a good example why M+ has ruined wow. The game should've stayed revolving around raiding, not M+. Clearly M+ is too lucrative a route to gear.

Fact. And many are too blind to see it.

I agree.

@OP. It is now essentially only about prestige and a very few pieces of loot really. Plus the experience. But let's be real, the experience counts little. Friends count more and loot as well. The main driving factors. If you don't have friends to do it with, you won't give a rat about experiencing it with 19 others. The most tangible thing was, the loot.

It should be a privilege to carry that 15 ilvls higher gear. Seeing everyone walking around in it, makes nobody special in that regard.