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  1. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    IIRC it's about 60-65 %.
    I dont think its quite that high, i could be remembering wrong but wasn't backstab around 30% of your damage on any given boss fight? Then take into account poisons procs and evis damage and were probably around 50-55% white daamge.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    I dont think its quite that high, i could be remembering wrong but wasn't backstab around 30% of your damage on any given boss fight? Then take into account poisons procs and evis damage and were probably around 50-55% white daamge.
    I'm pretty sure I was at 60 %+ on TBC, and TBC had a higher yellow damage proportion.
    There is not a lot of poison damage in Vanilla (as poisons don't scale with AP and many bosses are immune to them) and evisc was a very small part of damage, as most CP were used to keep S'n'D up.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    I'm pretty sure I was at 60 %+ on TBC, and TBC had a higher yellow damage proportion.
    There is not a lot of poison damage in Vanilla (as poisons don't scale with AP and many bosses are immune to them) and evisc was a very small part of damage, as most CP were used to keep S'n'D up.
    Ya maybe im thinking of combat swords, only reason i was confused is i saw a guy on private servers today using a lower DPS dagger in his mainhand and i assumed he did the calculations that it won out on backstab damage compared to having the 65 dps weapon in mainhand. Then again its a PS and who knows what kind of wonky stuff goes down there lol.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyw View Post
    tbh this is not correct. I was night elf rogue in Vanilla in a top 5 guild (Holy Warriors on Frostmane alliance). I was competing and beating human rogues etc. theres so much twitch skills and general skills in play here that a missed global or two is enough to change the dps rankings.

    my best advice is to play the race you feel like, I did so in Vanilla and I will do the same in Classic. And in Vanilla I was top 1-3 Rogue in our guild - I was extremely active and we got all the way up to 4 horsemen where we go raid fatigued with TBC creeping in.

    also this "Substantial decrease" how much is it in numbers? you are throwing big words around with zero backing facts. Is the +5 weapon skill good? no doubt its very good - but not so that you wont perform outstanding on a Night Elf, Gnome or Dwarf rogue.
    Math is math, and there are plenty of facts going on in this thread. I don't think I have to link it again.

    It is also a simple fact that if you play night elf rogue you care more about the look of your character than your performance in either pvp or pve.

  5. #25
    How much of a DPS increase are human weapon specializations?
    Quote Originally Posted by Gratlim View Post
    For PVE= human. For PVP= dwarf (Stoneform+ vanish is priceless at 60).
    Does not compute

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Fascinate View Post
    Ya maybe im thinking of combat swords, only reason i was confused is i saw a guy on private servers today using a lower DPS dagger in his mainhand and i assumed he did the calculations that it won out on backstab damage compared to having the 65 dps weapon in mainhand. Then again its a PS and who knows what kind of wonky stuff goes down there lol.
    You cant backstab with swords. The backstab spec is significantly higher yellow damage then combat/swords is.

    The reason for this is that you have more points in the sin tree, and that backstab has a much higher chance to crit meaning you often get more combo points meaning higher yellow damage.

    So either its the combat/swords white damage build or its the sin/dagger/backstab build. The backstab build does need more gear but its competitively viable in later tiers.
    Last edited by ClassicPeon; 2019-08-22 at 09:59 AM.

  6. #26
    Yes, I am going to play classic so I can constantly watch dps meter and feel the amazing vibe of this beautiful game of being among the top. Maybe it's time to get rid of this obsession, cause that's exactly what it is.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by gushDH View Post
    I am thinking of this so long.

    I played Dwarf Rogue in Vanilla and I am very connected to this character.

    However, now I know more about the game and realize that human is the strongest choice. I will play a Rogue in WoW Classic and I am torn between going Dwarf for the nostalgia or Human for the damage increase.

    I tried to find the answer but there is not something clear.


    How much of a DPS increase are the human weapon specializations. For PvE mostly.
    the only resonable choice is NE - cause boobies

    who cares about dps :P:P:P

    even more seriously - who cares unless you plan to play in top 0,001% - classic raids are a joke now especially in 1.12 builds.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    Does not compute
    How so, seems obvious.
    Humans have weapon racial which is nearly entirely for PvE.
    Dwarves have stoneform which is nearly entirely for PvP.
    What's not to compute ?
    You cant backstab with swords. The backstab spec is significantly higher yellow damage then combat/swords is.

    The reason for this is that you have more points in the sin tree, and that backstab has a much higher chance to crit meaning you often get more combo points meaning higher yellow damage.
    He was speaking of combat dagger spec, which has about identical yellow damage as combat sword. You're speaking of the assa spec, which is slightly lower DPS overall but more of it is yellow.

  9. #29
    I thought the deal with glancing blows and weapon skill was not that it reduced the chance of them happening but that it increased their damage (or decreased the damage penalty, whichever way you prefer to look at it) meaning that with sufficiently high weapon skill it is in fact possible to make glancing blows hit for more than non glancing...

    Which is why you sometimes hit lowbie mobs for huge numbers...

    Is that just "Jesus christ what are you smoking??" or is there any resemblence to what happens in there somewhere?

    From the Wowpedia someone linked earlier...

    Glancing Blow damage reduction

    The damage reduction is:

    (Target’s Defense skill – Your Weapon skill - 5) * 3%.

    This gives a level 60 player, with fully trained but otherwise unbuffed weapon skill, a 15% damage reduction with all Glancing Blows against level 62 mobs, and a 30% damage reduction with all Glancing Blows against level 63 mobs.

    Unlike the chances of getting a glancing blow, the player's weapon skill is not capped at level * 5 in the damage reduction formula. With +5 weapon skill, a level 60 player attacking a level 63 NPC will see the same amount of glancing blows (40%), but only 15% damage reduction. With +10 weapon skill, the damage reduction becomes negligible.
    I know rogues in the pirate server guild I was in was using it as reason to not cap weapon skill making the sword from .. gonna say "Vael" - the one with +4 swords skill, was still of massive use to them despite already having the +5 swords from spec or racial or w/e.
    Last edited by AeneasBK; 2019-08-22 at 10:46 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Shalcker View Post
    Posting here is primarily a way to strengthen your own viewpoint against common counter-arguments.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    How so, seems obvious.
    Humans have weapon racial which is nearly entirely for PvE.
    Dwarves have stoneform which is nearly entirely for PvP.
    What's not to compute ?

    He was speaking of combat dagger spec, which has about identical yellow damage as combat sword. You're speaking of the assa spec, which is slightly lower DPS overall but more of it is yellow.
    I dont mean to lecture you but thats not how it is

    1. the op asked a question, the guy i quoted answered a different question. That would be an exception or a does not compute error. Compute? :P

    2. Combat dagger and combat swords do not do identical damage. And combat sword scales much better. Combat dagger spec is really rare because you cant get Seal of fate/daggerspec and Oppertunity. So instead they forgo the 5% crit from dagger spec, take seal of fate and oppertunity and wait for later tiers where more crit is available. Seal of Fate/backstab is actually close to/better than combat/sword in later tiers.

    Also pretty sure(allthough noone really plays it so i dont know) that combat dagger(lol) has more yellow damage since it uses the multipliers from backstab to simply deal more damage with its yellow attack ,but uses daggers and not sword spec so it deals less white damage. Like thats actually just makes sense

  11. #31
    Its abt 4%. I think its significant enough. Also dont forget the hit is nice, but you shld really go for 308 skill for the glancing penalty. This allows human rogues to put 1/2 pts in the expertise talent instead of 2/2. So you save 3% hit, reduce your glancing penalty, and get 1 extra talent pt, usually put into 5% more evis dmg.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by AeneasBK View Post
    I thought the deal with glancing blows and weapon skill was not that it reduced the chance of them happening but that it increased their damage (or decreased the damage penalty, whichever way you prefer to look at it) meaning that with sufficiently high weapon skill it is in fact possible to make glancing blows hit for more than non glancing...

    Which is why you sometimes hit lowbie mobs for huge numbers...

    Is that just "Jesus christ what are you smoking??" or is there any resemblence to what happens in there somewhere?

    From the Wowpedia someone linked earlier...



    I know rogues in the pirate server guild I was in was using it as reason to not cap weapon skill making the sword from .. gonna say "Vael" - the one with +4 swords skill, was still of massive use to them despite already having the +5 swords from spec or racial or w/e.
    You are correct. At 15 weapon skill to defense difference, it's a 35% dmg penalty on glances. When u get to 308, so a 7 skill difference, its dropped to a 5% penalty. This is why humans are so good.

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by tikcol View Post
    Math is math, and there are plenty of facts going on in this thread. I don't think I have to link it again.

    It is also a simple fact that if you play night elf rogue you care more about the look of your character than your performance in either pvp or pve.
    Yeah but I Will still pwn human rogues so My point stands.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    Yes, I am going to play classic so I can constantly watch dps meter and feel the amazing vibe of this beautiful game of being among the top. Maybe it's time to get rid of this obsession, cause that's exactly what it is.
    Obsession or not, you bring 3-4% more damage for the group/raid. Whether you are minmaxing or not caring, it is something more, like having the ability to put another flask.

    I know it is not much, and that is the reason I want to play Dwarf like I did in Vanilla, but it still feels like I am slightly crippling myself.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Jimmyw View Post
    Yeah but I Will still pwn human rogues so My point stands.
    What point exactly? Because I didn't see any point. Especially when you started your post by saying I was wrong about +5 wep skill being better than no wep skill at all

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by ClassicPeon View Post
    I dont mean to lecture you but thats not how it is

    1. the op asked a question, the guy i quoted answered a different question. That would be an exception or a does not compute error. Compute? :P
    Ah, yeah, I get it now
    2. Combat dagger and combat swords do not do identical damage. And combat sword scales much better. Combat dagger spec is really rare because you cant get Seal of fate/daggerspec and Oppertunity. So instead they forgo the 5% crit from dagger spec, take seal of fate and oppertunity and wait for later tiers where more crit is available. Seal of Fate/backstab is actually close to/better than combat/sword in later tiers.
    Combat dagger was not rare, it was actually one of the three standard spec (the others being, well, combat sword and seal fate). It was actually the highest damage spec in early tier (can't say about late tiers, don't remember).
    You can't forgo dagger spec and still be "combat spec", because that would make it rather a "seal fate spec"
    The core of a combat spec was 15/28/5, with the last three points being either put in Combat to get AdreRush (but with 2 points spent in substandard DPS talents, like 2 points in Agression or Improved Sprint) or into Assa to get Ruthlessness or a bit of poison.
    Also pretty sure(allthough noone really plays it so i dont know) that combat dagger(lol) has more yellow damage since it uses the multipliers from backstab to simply deal more damage with its yellow attack ,but uses daggers and not sword spec so it deals less white damage. Like thats actually just makes sense
    Combat Dagger spec has not noticeably more yellow damage. It hits harder per hit, but it gives less CP (60 energy per CP instead of 40 for swords) so you basically never eviscerate, and sword spec has more talent increasing poison damage.

    Basically, white damage is the same amount in all cases, so if one spec had a noticeably higher yellow damage, it would be plain superior, and both are somewhat comparable.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by gushDH View Post
    Obsession or not, you bring 3-4% more damage for the group/raid. Whether you are minmaxing or not caring, it is something more, like having the ability to put another flask.

    I know it is not much, and that is the reason I want to play Dwarf like I did in Vanilla, but it still feels like I am slightly crippling myself.
    I know that feeling, and it's so fucking dumb, especially when it's going to be classic. It's going to be steamrolled by most guilds in a decent timeframe for everyone. I just feel that retail is better for, if dps is that important.
    Picking a race in terms of pvp is actually something that can have an impact. F.ex UD priests have it's own spell even, cannibalize is pretty sick, and wotf is just op at times, as is orcs hardiness (rogues just hate that yellow text of *resist*).

    Iirc, I think dwarfs has pretty good racial when it comes to pvp, and sorry if you rolled on a pve server

  17. #37
    So, if you're going to be raiding there's something to be said about what the other rogues are playing.
    In the guild I'm in there are 5 rogues, 4 are human and I'm the dwarf.

    All the Human rogues are after swords and all the daggers get fed to the dwarf.

    If you're planning on doing pvp, dwarf is far superior to human.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Ah, yeah, I get it now

    Combat dagger was not rare, it was actually one of the three standard spec (the others being, well, combat sword and seal fate). It was actually the highest damage spec in early tier (can't say about late tiers, don't remember).
    You can't forgo dagger spec and still be "combat spec", because that would make it rather a "seal fate spec"
    The core of a combat spec was 15/28/5, with the last three points being either put in Combat to get AdreRush (but with 2 points spent in substandard DPS talents, like 2 points in Agression or Improved Sprint) or into Assa to get Ruthlessness or a bit of poison.

    Combat Dagger spec has not noticeably more yellow damage. It hits harder per hit, but it gives less CP (60 energy per CP instead of 40 for swords) so you basically never eviscerate, and sword spec has more talent increasing poison damage.

    Basically, white damage is the same amount in all cases, so if one spec had a noticeably higher yellow damage, it would be plain superior, and both are somewhat comparable.
    I do disagree that it was better then swords early on, unless you didnt go for hit gear or something, then idk.

    You actually go sorta deep into combat as the Seal of Fate spec.

    Combat swords(which is the most mainstream and best combat spec for vanilla) didnt put any points into sub.
    Combat swords was 19/32/0 and had like 8 points in combat that where kinda useless for raiding in most scenarios.

  19. #39
    For what it's worth, the only moderately challenging gear checks will be in AQ40 and Naxx, and even then it won't be nearly as challenging as it was in 2006 due to all the advantages we have now. Also, there should be less glory in being high on damage meters and logs than on live, because 1. except arguably hunters every class has an extremely simple 'rotation' requiring little to no skill, 2. playing a lot in the sense of getting a lot of consumables and getting more gear than other people will be a huge factor (time is way more important than skill) and 3. a bigger factor than your personal effort is your guild's kill speed. Unless you're in a hardcore guild that gets all world buffs and insane consumable stacking, you won't be getting anywhere on logs no matter how good you are since the top guilds will kill bosses in half the time or less of more relaxed guilds.

    As such... if you really prefer a race for aesthetics rather than racials its not a huge deal. The PvE is easily doable if you have the time to invest in the game, and a dedicated guild.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by cface View Post
    I know that feeling, and it's so fucking dumb, especially when it's going to be classic. It's going to be steamrolled by most guilds in a decent timeframe for everyone. I just feel that retail is better for, if dps is that important.
    Picking a race in terms of pvp is actually something that can have an impact. F.ex UD priests have it's own spell even, cannibalize is pretty sick, and wotf is just op at times, as is orcs hardiness (rogues just hate that yellow text of *resist*).

    Iirc, I think dwarfs has pretty good racial when it comes to pvp, and sorry if you rolled on a pve server
    It's been proven that UD priests are not that great compared to troll. Only WOTF and canabalize are standouts, all of the priest specific racials kinda suck (even devo plague)

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