Some nightborne are gonna prefer Kaldorei/alliance over horde/BElves

[matrix123mko]

Can we, as a community, work together to make an addon that swaps gnomes out for nightborne so that he can finally play a nightborne on the Alliance?

It’s the only way to make this stop.

It is against the ToS. Blizzard banned some people for playing high elves.

[Mace]

Dude, get over it, you can play a nightborne, go horde, like any other player who want play opposite races

stop, you are making yourself look like a whiny kid who didn't get the toy in the color he want it.

I do play nightborne, and I do play horde. That's not the point though.

furthermore, I full regard nightborne as night elves on the horde, I don't think they are less night elven because they are allied with the blood elves. I tend to be sucked in to correct mis-representations of them and then giving my opinion. If you knew what someone said was wrong, you would say, and you would give your opinion too after correcting them.

Still, whether I play hore, or how I regard the nightborne on them is not the point of this topic

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LMAO that picture!!!

I totally dig Mace but that picture was hilarious!

He doesn't know it, but I found it amusing too, so did everyone where I live.

[Doffen]

I do play nightborne, and I do play horde. That's not the point though.

furthermore, I full regard nightborne as night elves on the horde, I don't think they are less night elven because they are allied with the blood elves. I tend to be sucked in to correct mis-representations of them and then giving my opinion. If you knew what someone said was wrong, you would say, and you would give your opinion too after correcting them.

Still, whether I play hore, or how I regard the nightborne on them is not the point of this topic

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He doesn't know it, but I found it amusing too, so did everyone where I live.

Always nice with a sense of humour And just to take part into the topic, Nightborne should lorewise still have some feelings towards the Kaldorei Night Elves, how it went in Suramar when it comes to Allied Race was silly. Gameplay trumped lore. If there are some merit into faction restriction will be loosened in the future, I for one think the story going forward will be better since they then won't have to consider gameplay as much when it comes to the races.

[Syegfryed]

I do play nightborne, and I do play horde. That's not the point though.

the point is you want then on the alliance

furthermore, I full regard nightborne as night elves on the horde, I don't think they are less night elven because they are allied with the blood elves.

they are not night elves, they are nightborne

I tend to be sucked in to correct mis-representations of them and then giving my opinion. If you knew what someone said was wrong, you would say, and you would give your opinion too after correcting them.

and you think you are right blizzard is wrong, and you should give your opinions many times in a row caus it will matter somehow.

[Mace]

Always nice with a sense of humour And just to take part into the topic, Nightborne should lorewise still have some feelings towards the Kaldorei Night Elves, how it went in Suramar when it comes to Allied Race was silly. Gameplay trumped lore. If there are some merit into faction restriction will be loosened in the future, I for one think the story going forward will be better since they then won't have to consider gameplay as much when it comes to the races.

Indeed, that was pretty much the point I was trying to make anyway.

I just wanted to share those thoughts and have people discuss to see if people thought similarly..

I made up to 12 points to exhaustively show that from very many reasons, nightborne would feel tied to, connected to and close to the kaldorei especially if they are truly noble and honourable.

What i'm saying, is that you can't have noble and virtuous nightborne in the horde without them actually having some loyalty and as far as some number actually supporting htem more.. from across society.

The only question is how many.

I think the kaldorei offer a lot more for the nightborne - growth in the area of religion and nature is immense, whereas the blood elves can't really teach them naything more about the arcane, they can the Light, but the nightborne have no reason to hate or not want Elune. It was the high elves that abandone worship of the moon goddess as well as much of what made them kaldorei, not the nightborne, the Nightborne love that stuff - occuleth fondly remembers the prayers to Elune, the priesthood bravely marched out against the Legion and Queen Azshara - and were very likely revered over the 10,000 years under the shield as an amazing group that gave their lives to save the city.. it is probably why Tyrande, High Priestess' remakrs cut rather deep with Thalyssra. If I look at her character and behaviour, it erminds me much of how I would imagine tyrande to be, except she wields the arcane as a mage rather than a Priest of Elune, who knows, if I were writing the novel, I think Thalyssra would have spied the young Tyrande display a taenacity against the evil of the legion during the first invasion, and being torn about stayin gin the city.

It woudlbe those flashbacks that motivated much of 7.0/1/2 - which is why her secret idols remarks stung so greatly and unwittingly forced a hasty decision to join the horde - it would explain her slight change in character too - but Thalyssra's character change has marred her in my eyes.

the only way she can be claimed is if she is one of the nightborne that support the night elves after the events of BFA, and she actually hleps the night elves. If tyrande can forgive Maiev, it shouldn't be a problem for Thalyssra who during the suramar campaign proved to be the exact opposite of Azshara and Elisande, and was more the Elisande to Tyrande's Azshara. If they develop a deep friendship between the two, it could work.

But I find it had to be opptomistic.

[kyo wolfsfang]

Kick all elves out of horde...

[Mace]

the point is you want then on the alliance.

They should be with the night elves mainly, but it's quite plausible some would really like the blood elves. Definitely not all

they are not night elves, they are nightborne

We all know that, just like we all know they are a night elven sub-race.

and you think you are right blizzard is wrong, and you should give your opinions many times in a row caus it will matter somehow

I'm right if i'm right, I'm wrong if I'm wrong.

I tend to give reasons for my conclusions, opinions and statements, and sometimes I give loads.. I gave 12 reasons I felt were compelling enough to why some nightborne would prefer to be with the night elves - the evidences presented aren't wrong, Butt he conclusion they support is not proven fact, so despite all those good reasons, I could still be wrong if the developers write all the nightborne love the blood elves and hate the night elves. Ofc if they did that,.. it would pretty much riddle much of what they have shown with inconsistency or force them to character change the nightborne or make them hate them.

Raven once suggested the night elves should boot the nightborne, or the nightborne who support the horde out of Suramar and take the city.. that would cause the nightborne aligned with the horde to hate the night elves.. I say it this way, because without a doubt I can imagine a fair number of nightborne supporting the kaldorei over this.

The better option would be that they leave faction divide out of their relationship. I feel the two groups should have a bond that is a bit stronger than who their friends are. So the nightborne joined the horde or rather the blood elves and helped them, but raised no finger against the night elves, and in fact turns out had been accepting Kaldorei refugees into the city, including some high profile ones - and some re-unions had already happened. I can easily see the relationship with the arcan'dor, exploring druidsm and Elunism drawing nightborne to the kaldorei, and them looking at it quite programmatically.. just because my friend hates you doesn't mean I do - my friend is a mature enough person to make up his own decisions on who he likes, I am my own person and I can decide who my friends are, if he doesn't like that I like you, he has to dweal with and decide whether I am worth it regardless of who my friends are. We're not lovers, we're friends.

I expect a slightly more detached/removed perspective on the faction affaris from both nightbornea nd night elves because they are freaking 10,000 years + old, it's nonsense for them to be stupid or easily sucked into hate of the factions. If the horde destroyed Darnassus, they take vengeance on the members of the horde responsible for it.. they don't wipe out an entire race without consideration that not everyone in it may be complicit, this is what I expect a mautre and wise group to do.

Vengeance on the individuals and army that invaded and slaughtered those in their lands, and the leadership responsible for that. not we hate every member of the horde. you can hate the organisation called the horde without necessarily hating every person in it especially when most people are blanket horde becaue their governmeents signed up to it..

[Frolk]

Elf fans are worse than horde/allience and pc vs mac fanboys.

[Syegfryed]

They should be with the night elves

the ship sailed, if they should or not its not for you to decide anymore

We all know that, just like we all know they are a night elven sub-race.

they are another race of elves, not just subraces, Ion said allied races are not just sub/races/parental races

to say they are a night elf subrace is to say blood elves are too, both were changed by magic, nigthborne merely retained their color.

I'm right if i'm right, I'm wrong if I'm wrong.

And you are wrong because everything else, is headcanon and fanfiction.

even if some of then would, like any other race is not made by a single mind would do different things and not side with their faction, individuals and would chose different, this means shit, cause it will not be neutral races with a faction based game, they will follow the pattern, and the nightborne joined horde, therefore, you will not play then on alliance regardless of some individuals

like i said, its time to get over it with this obsession of not having the toy in blue colors

[Caerule]

@Mace, sorry to keep you waiting for long. I skimmed your long post and decided to follow your advice to reread Wolfheart. It had been a while since I read it, and I wanted to be certain of my words. I do want to say I respect the time you put into your response to me, so I intend to give it the attention it deserves. We may be on completely opposite sides, and I do wish you would stop creating these threads, but I do respect a good lore discussion. I would like to first put the notes of my read-through of the Highborne portions of the Wolfheart book here at the top, before I read through your points to discuss them. Apologies for a long read.

Refugees from Eldre’Thalas—better known to most in this age by the more apt title Dire Maul—these night elf magi and their fellow survivors remained shunned by many of those in Darnassus. Though the Highborne even now maintained an air of absolute independence, in truth they found themselves in need of others. However, that by no means meant any lacking in arrogance or in their desire to continue their study of the arcane, no matter what the cost.

Malfurion: “You stood by while the queen’s counselor, Xavius, oversaw the creation of the portal that let the Legion into our world; you stood silent when Queen Azshara chose the demons over her own people; and you continue your practice of arcane magic, even though it is the same magic that drew the Legion to us. Even the millennia have not stripped the people’s memories of those final days. It was difficult enough even to gain your kind the right to come to Darnassus...”

• The exchange between Var’dyn and Malfurion makes it clear the Highborne feel ostracized and that integrating them into Night Elf society is a process that’s going to take years.
• In his conversation with the Worgen Eadrik, Malfurion notes that like Genn, Night Elves had been expressing distrust over whatever influence the Highborne might have.
• The Watchers were not the only ones disliking the Nightborne. They are stated as being “among the many uncomfortable with the thought of the Highborne’s eventual return to the fold.”
• The Highborne may only practice their magic on occasion, in limited way, in designated areas with safeguards. A line the Highborne tend to cross.
• Mordent Evenshade clearly confirms that he feels Malfurion saved the Highborne lives by letting them into Darnassus.

There is not a single person in the book that likes the Highborne. They’re a burden to Malfurion and Tyrande. Everyone distrusts them, even Shandris. They are flamboyant, arrogant, and share none of the values of the Night Elves. They’re there because Mordent struck a restrictive accord to let them in, because the Horde purged them from Dire Maul. Even Jarod, the good guy of the story, does not wish for their return to Night Elven society.

@Caerule : bear in mind these 12 erasons are not guarantees that this is how the nightborne feel, it's just showing that there are as much as 12 reasons for various nightborne to prefer the night elves.

You can't really disprove a possibility, we don't know that is how they feel now, but there is a good chance some would feel these various ways.

I will grant you that I can't prove there are no Nightborne that are of the opinions you have given. As I explained though, in a setting like this, we can't really consider small exceptions. The burden of proof here lies on the claim that the amount of people that feel like this is significant. High enough in number that it would justify it being a playable portion of the population, for whom this conviction lies strong enough that they would reject their race's and leaders current path, and choose to join the Night Elves. If this can't be sufficiently justified, than Blizzard can't make this a legit development, as you desire them to. I've acknowledged that not all individuals will think alike. But, like the few hypothetical Orc Paladins in the Argent Dawn, those small exceptions in my opinion would not justify becoming a playable option.

Caerule: "The old Highborne empire is something both the Blood Elves and the Nightborne revere."
This is not correct. Nightborne yes, Shen'dralar yes, kaldorei highborne - yes, Blood elves? NO, druidic night elves? NO, Priests? No.

You have no evidence this is the case for the blood elves. But you have evidence that they don't like the pre-sundering kaldorei empire. It was never called the highborne empire btw.

You shouldn't try to cut night elf out of kaldorei, or kaldorei out of highborne or highborne out of kaldorei or night elf - it's all tied tot he same thing.

the high elves, HATED the culture of the invasion period of the kaldorei empire - it's not arcane magic they hated, no, they hated the addiction, decadence and irresponsible use of magic that would compromise people and set them astray. When they set up Quel'thalas, they vowed it wou ld surpass the kaldorei empire and be better than it in every way, they would practice magic responsibly and diligently, none of the rubbish of the invasion period.

They also departed from as much kaldorei as they could. Arcane practice was revived, but not in the same manner or focus - they are not focused on the stars and moon, but rather the sun, hunting and forest rangering is also practiced, same as night elves - so knowledge is knowledge, just because they practice arcane and bowmanship doesn't mean all of a sudden they are the same, neither does the fact they love forests mean they are the same, they aactually choase a very forested area to call their new home because it reminded them most of kalimdor.

So while they loved their land, loved their racial knowledge of magic, and bowmanship, they also rejected a lot about it. They had the responsibility and earnestness of the long vigil group but rejected tehir fear of using magic, and while they developed an elven civilization which makes them seem more like the hiighborne of the kaldorei empire, it was a different civilization, different values, downe away with a lot of the crap of pre

The Night Elves were the ones to cut the Highborne out of the Kaldorei. Quel'thalas was founded by the Highborne that the Night Elves banished from Kalimdor. Night Elves made the use of magic punishable by death. Unable to abandon magic, the Highborne violated the ban. Rather than kill them all, they were banished. The Highborne founded Quel'thalas to reforge a Highborne kingdom of magic. Over time, they would evolve and become known as High Elves. They were more cautious than they were before. But Quel'thalas certainly was created by the Highborne, to recreate their past glory.

Caerule: "Sure, Blood Elves consider the spellcraft the remaining Highborne wield to be outdated."
That's not true, what makes you say that? when the lore says the night elf empire was the most advanced magically even by today's standards. it also shows you the Kirin'Tor, karazhan, searching for night elf arcane tomes and artifacts like most precious gold.. because of the knowledge they possess, in that 5,000 year period you had an entire global empire filled with all manner of wonders and arcane practice and knowledge, the stuff people would have come up with, the peaceful setting they would have had largely uninterrupted - and the type or quality of power they would have had in the Well of Eternity, has never been seen, nor likely ever will be, they would have made myriads of strides in all manner of area to the effect that millionscan actually yield.

It would take the entire world, being arcane minded, with a powerful source and arcane essensee at their core to make the same progress.. in other words, they won't match it today like it is now.

And the quest s in Azshara zone are night elf novices that are using outdated technology, some of them are returned highborne from a 10k year break, because when the shend'ralar were accepted and the highborne order re-insttuted, osme highborne who had stayed with the Darnassians and upheld the ban on arcane practice, reclaimed their heritage.. wea re told this in both cataclysm and in 2 of the lore books, we are also shown this in Azsuna, the twins looking for their parents are 2 such ancient highborne, stuck with the Darnassians, upholding the ban, and returned to their highborne roots once it was lifted.

The outdated magic in Azshara is confirmed by the devs to not be the shend'rlaar, but the new night elef mages in training. The novices.

Some knowledge from the time was indeed lost. As well as lots of secrets. The main reason they were more powerful though, is because they were empowered with the Well of Eternity. It can't be underestimated how powerful this made the Night Elves. The Well of Eternity on Mount Hyjal was made with just 3 vials of its water. The Sunwell is made with only 1 vial. The magic the Highborne of old wielded was much more powerful because of that, which also means more powerful items could be created. But that does not mean that the magic was more advanced by today's standards. Spells were more powerful, because even a novice mage had access to great power from the Well of Eternity. Without that, modern mages are superior. I believe Rhonin may have demonstrated this in the Well of Eternity trilogy.

You are right that most of the Night Elf mages the Horde faces in their quests are novices. But the Night Elf spells are also described as "laughably primitive magics".

Caerule: "Nightborne and Blood Elves have held on to that legacy of the Highborne."
Incorrect,t he blood elves and high elves did not hold on to the legacy of the highborne, they have the highborne past, but their presenet is very proudly their own, and they are very proud of this. The nightborne and shen'drlaar highborne continue in the culture of the highborne. it's not legacy to them, this is who they are, it is their present, not their "legacy".

The Dire Maul Highborne still consider themselves Highborne. But both the Shal'dorei and Sin'dorei cultures were founded by the original Highborne, and changed to form their own racial identity over time. Both value their legacy. But neither refers to themselves as the Highborne anymore, having changed and grown. It is their legacy. The Nightborne have not remained frozen for 10.000 years. They are much different, and have changed their name to reflect this.

Caerule: "It is the Night Elves to have abandoned that aspect of their precious incarnation, that the Nightborne now embody."
The Long Vigil night elves indeed did do this, aand the Darnassians that emerge from them is a different culture. But as you note below the Highborne they invite, and the nightborne of suramar and likely the Moonguard too, do not.

I am not completely sure what you mean here. The modern Highborne negotiated themselves back into Night Elf culture, yes. Driven into the forests of Feralas, there was no other safe haven for them at the time.

Caerule: "The Highborne Night Elves may have been called Night Elves, but respecting them does not mean you respect their current namesakes. That would be ignoring 10.000 years of great change."
That statement makes no sense whatsoever.

Highborne is a caste, the ones that are highborne are shown to still be highborne,, and they're lal night elves or nightborne. The high elves and blood elves aren't highborne nor do they continue in the highborne legacy, they are High elves and Blood elves now, they have their own ways and culture, just because it is high society like the highborne, doesn't mean they are same, and just because they practice arcane nad accept it society wide, doesn't mean they are the same either.

highborne night elves are still night elves and are still highborne. Highborne are still night elves, it's the name we give to the caste of night elves that developed for high arcane mastery. We don't givet his name to high elves or blood elves, they are descendants of highborne, but developed their own culture and we give them a different name. Quel'dorei in Thalassian translates High elf, Quel'dorei in Darnassian translates highborne. Different words are use because they are different. When the blood elves started going all reckless after the 3rd war, in a similar manner to the highborne, they warned the alliance of their highborne past.. but didn't warn the alliance of the high elves when they meet and fight with them on Mount hyjal, in fact when Tyrande first meets Kael'thas, she helps him. It's only later when the blood elves continue the fel stuff they warn them of the highborne past.

I feel what I tried to say just didn't get across my meaning here. That's my bad. What I meant was that the culture of the Night Elves has changed severely. And that you equate the Night Elves as they used to be, too much with what they are currently. Specifically, yes, the Nightborne would have fit into the Night Elf culture of 10.000 years ago without all too much trouble. But even though they are still called "Night Elves", Kaldorei culture has changed severely. I therefore think it is false to go "Of course Nightborne would fit in with the Night Elves. Just check back to how it was 10.000 years ago". Times have changed.

Caerule: "The modern day Highborne are a stagnated relic whose homecoming has been anything but warm."
Just like the nightbonre, because it's tehs ame culture. This is why Thlayssra claims she joins the horde, "our people will no longer suffer such stagnation" - in saying that her views align with that of the blood elves, and marks a new direction for her people.. which is another acknowledgement

The Nightborne were contained beneath a shield. In the Alliance, they would be contained by the rules and restrictions of their peers. The Horde offers freedom to be all you can be. The Nightborne have naturally felt limited. But that doesn't mean they've been frozen. The Nightborne culture we've seen in Suramar has undergone great changes. A people adapted to life in a dome without day and night. They changed appearance. Developed arcane constructs. Evolved their nature and culture to the Nightwell. Began to mark their bodies with arcane tattoos. Learned how to re-forge nature through the arcane. Developed new fashions, language and aesthetics. And new ways of magic and battle. There is a reason they changed their name. These are no longer the Highborne they were. No more than the Highborne that founded Quel'thalas.

Caerule: "They are a good indication of how the Nightborne would be received among the Night Elves."
We have all the evidence already of how nightborne would be received amongst the night elves. The interaction with Valewalker Farodin, the moonugard, the Suramar refugees and Tyrande. You will get a range from compassion, support to disgust - but one and thes ame, help and support. By the end of the 7.1 campaign, Tyrande is cheering on the nightborne for standing up for themselves this time round instead o f refusing to join in the fight

Being happy someone doesn't make a decision to join the Burning Legion, doesn't mean you are ready to welcome them in your home. Tyrande and Malfurion represent the more accepting and noble side of Night Elven society, and even they would preferred for the Highborne not to return, had that been an option.

Caerule: "They are tolerated at best. And at least those are willing to live by the customs, rules and terms given to them by the Night Elves, if very reluctantly."
This is pure speculation. The Darnassians accepted the Shen'dralar, there was reluctance at first, but they accepted the, and their numbers grew dramatically, in stark contrast to such claims. I think there a re people who want the Darnassiasn to be the magic hating long vigil group they perceived them to be in WC3, however these people not only misunderstand the reasons why the arcane was banned, but also don't get what was happening either. They also typically don't updage their lore, and don't follow the changes .. why? Because they aren't night elf fans, and the few that are with this persuasion haven't cared for anything shown about nighte lves after WC3, viewing it all as a catastrophic failure - not realising that they may have missed the truth about the ight elves from the start if they have based the race on hating the arcane.

The highborne are fully accepted... it's amazing how people take this other view. The only ngith elf shown to have such views is MAiev during wolfhear tand ilildan, as well as the pre-legion audio comic. Her motivationsa nd reasons are thoroughly detailed in the nighte lf books and she is shown to be alone in htat singleminded hatred and nonn-acceptance.

Now a discussion on how the night elves may feel about the arcane is a different subject, and I can show you how tihis changes from creation to pre-sundering through various eras, then throughout the long vigil, and then changing again during wow, and how it must be changed

It's not speculation, though. Even you have quoted part of why Thalyssra feels the Alliance is not for them. The Alliance would constrict them. How the Night Elves treated the Highborne makes it clear that this is true. They were expected to conform. And as I have shown from my notes at the start, the Highborne are anything but fully accepted. Sure, Maiev and her loyalists are the ones representing those willing to kill them. But even the Night Elves on the other side, are simply the ones willing to tolerate them out of mercy, or out of respect for Malfurion and Tyrande. A few Night Elves did seek to learn from these mages. For example Vestia Moonspear, who apparently lost several friends due to choosing this path.

Caerule: "Nightborne do not want to change their ways, and are considerably less Night Elf than these Modern Highborne are."
That's just false. Nightborne infact very much want to change their ways, firstly Thalsysra and Ly'leth change the ways from the cruel highbonre to the more kaldorei resitsance type of night elf. Then after Legion she declares she would no longer suffer the stagnation they'd been in , which is what life under the alliance would continue. She says this because the developers know they had designed the nightborne as kaldorei highborne types in a kaldorei vein..this is no mystery.. only players keep rubbing the blood elves in something tehir not, the devleoeprs and anyone who reads the lore sees and knows that they are showing Kaldorei culture in the nightborne.

Here you are doing that thing again, where you equate Old Kaldorei culture with Modern Night Elves. Old Kaldorei Culture is dead. Its relics are everywhere. Its people went to completely new directions, forging new identities. I can consent that Suramar is meant to show what Highborne culture would have looked like at the height of its power. And indeed, it's as close to an intact Highborne city as you can get. That doesn't mean its people haven't changed.

To be in the Alliance, means you have to conform to some degree. For associating with the Night Elves, this is triply so. The Highborne tolerated into Darnassus were subjected to a lot of restrictions.

Caerule: "The High Elves rejected even their own kin, when they went through what the Nightborne did. Why would they welcome Nightborne when they rejected Blood Elves?"
Why wouldn't they? Are they not in Suramar alongside the other elven groups helping the nightborne? Do they not also know what addiction is like and didn't resort to sucking mana of living creatures or demons, but like the nightborne, cfoudn items and leylines to sate their thirst, why would they reject the nightborne? DO you think it's the blood leves that are the only ones that have had to deal with addiction pangs? Did you not read the War of the anacient,s or the many books on night elf past that tell you the night elves all had to deal with this when the Well imploded. Do you not realise the nightorne are telling the story of night elven addiction - why do you think it's different from the thalassian addiction... their addiction shows up when they don't have mana, they devolve, because they've been warped by so much arcane energy - they've been ingesting arcane as food for sustenance for a few thousand years.. in contrast the Thalassians, carve more and more and the more they ingest goes beyond their race's capacity to cope, waring them in to Wretched. easily confused with withered, but the exact opposite.

I'll debate the first point first, but consider the second one more interesting. The High Elves were there to help defeat Gul'dan, yes. But they did not really show much kinship with these Shal'dorei. We disagree on how much the story of the Sin'dorei and Shal'dorei overlaps. So my argument to the Quel'dorei seeing this too, is not going to convince you. But at the very least, I hope we can agree that if there was such a similarity, the High Elves have more in common with Blood Elves in culture and appearance and still rejected them, and so would be more likely to reject the Nightborne, whom they resemble even less.

The more interesting point is about the Withered. When the level of magic you have grown accustom to has grown higher than natural, you grow dependant on it, and thirst for it when you can no longer reach that level. It's also true that, if the level you have grown accustom to is extremely high, then losing access to enough magic can deteriorate your mind and body. We agree that Withered form that way. But we seem to disagree on Wretched. I always felt that it was not indulging too much power itself, that caused people to become Wretched. But that those that could not control their thirst would consume magic too greedily, and grow accustom to, and dependant on, even higher levels of magic. Worsening their addiction. Which would leave them Wretched if they then could not keep up that level of magic. So in my mind, Withered and Wretched have the same cause. But Nightborne were accustom to a higher level of magic through the Nightwell, than the Blood Elves were through the Sunwell and would thus deteriorate even without indulging too high. The Nightwell's power itself was too high to live without. That's not really a debate, as it is my theory. But I wanted to share my perspective at least.

Caerule: "Void Elves are probably more welcoming. But a bunch of Voided up outcasts aren't really the most alluring company. And none of them are more preferable than Blood Elves. Silvermoon is practically their sister city."
Lol... no they are not, the high elves and highborne on the kaldorei would be better company. Also Silvermoon is the city of both the high elves and blood elves. Though the blood leves alone hold it now, it's the entire people that created it. Just like although the nightborne hold Suramar, it is all the night elf people that created it. the Darnassians mostly come from there.

Silvermoon is a sister city in the sense that it is the "sister" elf group, the night elves that created it.. but otherwise it isn't, it's an opposite city, one based on the night, moon and stars, while the other is based on the sun. they are both splendid but in different ways, if you're saying their sisters because they're both high magic cities, then I guess that's work too. Just know they're different.

I'm talking magical elf cities making them sister cities, yes. I think you are underestimating how many Night Elves are from Suramar, by the way. Sure, Tyrande and the Stormrage Twins are from there. But the Night Elven empire was gigantic. World-wide, on a world that was much larger than the current one, where 80% of the former landmass is now ocean. Darnassians don't mostly come from there. In fact, considering that this one city escaped the war by shielding itself, and presumably most of its citizens, it would be a city where the least Night Elves have their origin. As for which race would be the best company to the Nightborne. I would think that would be the one that wanted to be their friend from the start.

Caerule: "The racial characteristic of being a shade of purple and being tall, is all that yet connects these people. If they had been pale Night Elves or dark skinned Blood Elves in their base design, you would never have developed these obsessions and justifications. "But, they look alike" is the lizard brain talking, and really, it's the foundation of all of this."
Who says this with a straight that nightborne are purple blood elves.. this is what void elves. Nightborne are arcane culture night elves. They're night elf models skinnier with a different stand animation, blood elves are as much similar to nightborne as they are to night elves - especially the highborne variety.

I think you misunderstood me. And in the process kind of proved what I was saying. The main reason you think Nightborne are culturally Night Elves, is because they are physically similar to Night Elves. And if they were not, you would not be so obsessed with having them join the Night Elves. It feels like your preference has its basis in appearance.

Caerule: Shortened: "Night Elves do not want to live in Suramar again."
The night elves that rebelled against the legion also came from Suramar City, some in the city joined the priesthood and resistance, others chose to stay... and it's their arcane addiction then accepteing the legion that any night elf would find despisable, but i'ts not so simply clear cut. the night elves don't colelctilvey wholesale condemn the nightborn do they, many of them work with the nightborne, work to save them, some very compassionately.

And it doesn't matter if your memories were from before, it doesn't mean you would have no connection or no love for a place. the night elves were devastated by the legion invasion because it destroyed and cost them their entire civlziation and nearly their world. They loved both, if they didn't, they wouldn't miss it or consider it such a loss. What night elves who came to their sense came to hate was not their magic, nor their civilziaiton or cities, but their attitude, the callous arrogant, reckless and abusive addiction. That's why the nighte lves hate that, but still accept the arcane in mages of the humans and draenor, and their own highborne, because when the shen'dralar cleaned up, they accepted them, they blasted them for their role in the legion (which was staying silent for

While I do agree that modern Night Elves are a bit hypocritical for tolerating magic in other cultures but elves, you make it seem like all that they despise is arrogance and recklessness. And that Night Elves would gladly move back into an unnatural arcane city like Suramar otherwise. Compassion does not require kinship, nor a lack of distrust. For over 10.000 years, the Night Elves would kill practitioners of magic. With reluctance, the Highborne refugees were offered sanctuary in Darnassus, under great restrictions and with the expectation to conform. They even warned the Alliance about the High Elves. Highborne might hypothetically love Suramar city. But they lived Highborne city for 10.000 years. Outside of that splinter group, the Night Elves have avoided living that way for 10.000 years.

Caerule: Shortened: "Night Elves are nocturnal elves with deep connection to celestial power. Nightborne do not."
Look at them, they are night elves, that have bene living in perpetual night, what makes you think they are not nocturnal.. or did the borne added to night some how confuse you night(borne) elves? Or the elation in their voices when the shield comes down and they say.. "we see the stars once more".. or the Moon symbols all over the city that they didn't take down or change.. unlike the high elves who rebuilt an entirely new city, and live based on the day.

The city was built by Night Elves. It's clear some of those cultural norms survive. I'll grant you that. I'm willing to concede on this one. Though I do feel that it's hard to call a race nocturnal if they live in an environment where the sky is a glowing dome all day. I think it's equally likely they are named for the Nightwell.

Caerule: Shortened: <List of 10 things Nightborne and Blood Elves have in common in their story>
What traitorous monarch di dthe night elves have that Elisande was compared to and based on? That everyone is dealing with right now? Oh wait.. Queen Azshara.. could it be, that this is a night elf story based on night elf. could it be that the kael'thas betrayal story was modelled after the night elf story of Azshara, rather than elisande being based on Kael''thas.. when all the comparsions in legion are with Elisande and Azshara, not Kael'thas.

I was explaining why the Blood Elves felt kinship though... Sure, 1 of the 10 points also applies to the Night Elves. Though if you want to get that technical, Azshara happened to all the Elves, and the Blood Elves and Nightborne recently both had to experience it again for a second time. But let's not go down the road of such specifics. I hope you can acknowledge at least, that the Blood Elves and Nightborne have many points in common, as I stated.

Caerule: "Meanwhile Modern Highborne are outcasts, just as the Blood Elven ancestors were. But they remained mostly stuck in the past, hiding out in Dire Maul, feeding on the essence of a demon."
They aren't outcasts, they joined with the night elves, you're again not updating your lore. And in the long vigil era, they never joined the long vigil group, so how could they have been outcasts, the high elves were outcasts, exiled together, the shend'ralar never were to the Daranssians.

Ah, I meant during their time in Dire Maul. Sorry if that was unclear. By the word Outcast, I mean they were unwelcome with the rest of their people. Which I am sure we agree on.

Caerule: "They too had an evil monarch situation. But this wasn't solved by them, but by outsiders. After which the displaced survivors were reluctantly granted asylum by the Night Elves, and barely tolerated within their city,"
Reluctant? You make it sound like it was the shen'dalralar were the only ones that wanted to join the n Darnassians, I seem to recall many night elves wanting this to happen, including Tyrande and Malufrion who also argued their case, and Wolfheart showing us that iit was Maiev opposing their acceptance, and Maiev who had stirred up hateand were only a small group that was reluctant, not the whole night elves.. this ofc is in wolfheart..

And barely tolerated? What is barely tolerated about the Highborne, they are in the temple area, which is the most pristigeous part of Darnassus, they are called on and relied on a lot durin g cataclysm, their portals save most of the dAranssians in thewar of thorns, and are the part of the night elves that have helped the Alliance the most, when you judge the night elf units that show up for the alliance throughout moP, WoD and BFA, the largest number are the mages.

I am not denying that they are of use. But you do seem to forget how their introduction went. I've already gone into it at the start of this post, but you shouldn't forget that it was Mordent that petitioned for his people to be allowed into the city, after his NPC was shown in Darnassus before Cata, petitioning for a meeting with Tyrande, while suffering abusive comments from the guards.

Caerule: "on their terms."
Wolfheart shows all the terms of the Highborne were accepted. This was the condition of their re-entry, anyone who says otherwise is making it up, they have no evidence to support their assumptions that the magic was restricted and monitored by someone other than the very shend'rlar themselves who were in charge of the magic.

You don't understand alliances -- if the Darnassiasn don't trust the Shen'dralar, there is no point going into an alliance, it doesn'twork like that, expecting people to fight for you and give their lives for you channelling marcane magic, which you can somehow control and determine what is enough and what iisn't? It makes no sense whatsoever and off course is not the case.

the shend'ralar monitor their magic, and they are the ones that have the ultimate say so on arcane matters for the Kaldorei currently, they have full autonomny and select their own students and don't have to conform to the culture of the druids. Read wolfheart again. Please. And update your lore, the night elves are no longer in the long vigil era, they don't hold the same views

Okay.. At this point I feel maybe you should pick up the book Wolfheart yourself again. I will grant you that the situation likely improved with time. Especially after Maiev's actions likely gaining the Highborne some favor. But it is definitely true that the Highborne were restricted in how often they could use magic, in limited ways, in designated areas with safeguards maintained by druids.

Caerule: Shortened: "100.000 Nightborne are supposed to align with the Night Elves that despise them, because they are tolerating a couple hundred Highborne?"
.Hyperbole.. acceptance is not tolerance.

I will grant you that today, the Highborne are probably more trusted. I mean, helping so many people escape the flames of Teldrassil has probably helped many overcome their prejudice. But it also can't be denied that it started off as tolerance, and the Highborne have had to fight for acceptance. Acceptance that likely still is not complete. The losses suffered and 10.000 years of killing on sight isn't so easily undone. I also think it can't be denied that the Highborne have had to adapt and change to fit into the culture of the modern Night Elf.

Caerule: Shortened: "Night Elves and Nightborne are not similar. Modern Night Elf culture has rejected all they stand for. They match Blood Elves."
Well we definitely, definitely disagree on this, show me where in the lore supports any of your points/ I have taken each point of yours and shown you from the lore and reason why this isn't so, because people keep confusing the night elf lore and don't update their lore.

We do disagree. But I do see us at least slightly getting closer. Or at the very least, honing our positions in their accuracy. In the end, that's all we can do. I hope to have shown you some justification for my points, so that you can at least understand why I hold these opinions.

The final part of this message is you quoting another person about Horde Bias at Blizzard. Honestly, I've always felt the opposite, with Alliance usually getting much nicer things. But that is a discussion for another place.

[Mace]

the ship sailed, if they should or not its not for you to decide anymore

I dont ultimately decide, but my thoughts and opinions have every right to be expressed and detailed.

they are another race of elves, not just subraces, Ion said allied races are not just sub/races/parental races

And what is your reasoning to think they are not a sub race of night elf?

Ion could very well be alluding to Vulpera.

to say they are a night elf subrace is to say blood elves are too, both were changed by magic, nigthborne merely retained their color

.

It's not rocket science. Are void epves a blood elf sub race or a night elf one? What racial group are they based off? What racial model are they sharing? Who are they connected to historically? What is their racial mount and appearance in line with?

Now answer the same for nightborne.

And you are wrong because everything else, is headcanon and fanfiction

.
Is that the response you make when you have no real arguments, evidences or reasonable points to make? You just dont like what I'm saying, and therefore call it headcanon.

even if some of then would, like any other race is not made by a single mind would do different things and not side with their faction, individuals and would chose different, this means shit, cause it will not be neutral races with a faction based game, they will follow the pattern, and the nightborne joined horde, therefore, you will not play then on alliance regardless of some individuals

like i said, its time to get over it with this obsession of not having the toy in blue colors

It means everything g to the actual subject matter being discussed, why that is the whole poi t of the topic, what on earth makes you think it means shit?
This is not some campaign for neutral races or any such, this is examining why and hownplauisnle it is that some nightborne would prefer to side with or want to align with the alliance and niht elves

- - - Updated - - -
@Caerule

Aww beautiful Caerule, thanks for taking the time to write such a detailed response I appreciate the effort and appreciate not getting personal about it especially where we may disagree.

I am looking forward to going through each comment and adding my comments to them. Alas, not right now, probably in the next few days and over time, as it would simply take too much time at one sitting.

Till then, bye for now.

[Caerule]

Aw, man. I hope that post I made will be of some use to Mace, but I apologise to anyone else that actually struggled through it. That went a lot longer than I anticipated.

I am done arguing for tonight. But I will add that I just hope Blizz does end up removing the faction barrier. If only so that everyone can just play their favorite race on their favorite side, and all arguments like this can forever be concluded.

Edit:
Thanks for the response @Mace.

Yeah, forum discussions can get heated. But while I may disagree with your points, and to some degree your approach, you are sincere in your opinions, and genuine in your belief that your desired outcome would serve the greater good. I would be a fool to get personal about that. And it's no way to convince your opponent in any debate.

And yeah, please. Take your time. I need a break after that one

[Syegfryed]

I dont ultimately decide, but my thoughts and opinions have every right to be expressed and detailed.

not every single day, not even every week

And what is your reasoning to think they are not a sub race of night elf?

sub-race is something minor, way minor, they are not that race anymore, just like elves are not trolls, nightborne are not night elves, neither blood elves

Ion could very well be alluding to Vulpera.

he wasn't

It's not rocket science. Are void epves a blood elf sub race or a night elf one?

they are a new race of elves

What racial group are they based off?

it doesn't even matter.

What racial model are they sharing? Who are they connected to historically? What is their racial mount and appearance in line with?

don't matter

Now answer the same for nightborne.

yeah, don't matter at all
.

Is that the response you make when you have no real arguments, evidences or reasonable points to make? You just dont like what I'm saying, and therefore call it headcanon.

i mean, you want alliance to have nightborne because you are obsessed by then for some reason, thats fanfict at finest.

It means everything g to the actual subject matter being discussed, why that is the whole poi t of the topic, what on earth makes you think it means shit?

because is a faction based game, therefore as long the factions stands they will not mke the races neutral just because some people don't like the factions they are.

This is not some campaign for neutral races or any such, this is examining why and hownplauisnle it is that some nightborne would prefer to side with or want to align with the alliance and niht elves

if they would, if they want, they should have done it, and they didn't, case closed.

Nightborne are arcane elves from pretty big cities who like to stick with other arcane elves from pretty big cities not hippy elves who hugs trees

exceptions are just that, exceptions, and they don't matter

[Xanesh]

The problem is the number of threads created daily with the excuse of talking about Night Elves at some point or another.

Even the High Elf cult was contained in its own post.

Mace has their own meme now. xD This is gold.

[matrix123mko]

[MENTION=892657]the high elves, HATED the culture of the invasion period of the kaldorei empire - it's not arcane magic they hated, no, they hated the addiction, decadence and irresponsible use of magic that would compromise people and set them astray. When they set up Quel'thalas, they vowed it wou ld surpass the kaldorei empire and be better than it in every way, they would practice magic responsibly and diligently, none of the rubbish of the invasion period.

It sounds very hyperbolic. Can you prove that? From what I remember they did not hate Highborne culture at all.

That's not true, what makes you say that? when the lore says the night elf empire was the most advanced magically even by today's standards. it also shows you the Kirin'Tor, karazhan, searching for night elf arcane tomes and artifacts like most precious gold.. because of the knowledge they possess, in that 5,000 year period you had an entire global empire filled with all manner of wonders and arcane practice and knowledge, the stuff people would have come up with, the peaceful setting they would have had largely uninterrupted - and the type or quality of power they would have had in the Well of Eternity, has never been seen, nor likely ever will be, they would have made myriads of strides in all manner of area to the effect that millionscan actually yield.

It would take the entire world, being arcane minded, with a powerful source and arcane essensee at their core to make the same progress.. in other words, they won't match it today like it is now.

And the quest s in Azshara zone are night elf novices that are using outdated technology, some of them are returned highborne from a 10k year break, because when the shend'ralar were accepted and the highborne order re-insttuted, osme highborne who had stayed with the Darnassians and upheld the ban on arcane practice, reclaimed their heritage.. wea re told this in both cataclysm and in 2 of the lore books, we are also shown this in Azsuna, the twins looking for their parents are 2 such ancient highborne, stuck with the Darnassians, upholding the ban, and returned to their highborne roots once it was lifted.

The outdated magic in Azshara is confirmed by the devs to not be the shend'rlaar, but the new night elef mages in training. The novices.

Some of that magic is very precious and some of it is outdated. From the priceless knowledge, my first idea are the Scrolls of Meitre. They also had great soulstones. However, they most likely lacked arcane knowledge of Augari or magics of Dalaran that were invented after the Sundering.

Incorrect,t he blood elves and high elves did not hold on to the legacy of the highborne, they have the highborne past, but their presenet is very proudly their own, and they are very proud of this. The nightborne and shen'drlaar highborne continue in the culture of the highborne. it's not legacy to them, this is who they are, it is their present, not their "legacy".

High elves are as much of a highborne as the nightborne. Both groups evolved.

The Long Vigil night elves indeed did do this, aand the Darnassians that emerge from them is a different culture. But as you note below the Highborne they invite, and the nightborne of suramar and likely the Moonguard too, do not.

So you can see that Suramar does not fit into Darnassian culture.

Highborne is a caste, the ones that are highborne are shown to still be highborne,, and they're lal night elves or nightborne. The high elves and blood elves aren't highborne nor do they continue in the highborne legacy, they are High elves and Blood elves now, they have their own ways and culture, just because it is high society like the highborne, doesn't mean they are same, and just because they practice arcane nad accept it society wide, doesn't mean they are the same either.

High elves are Highborne. They are part of that caste and nothing can change this fact. Also, if they have so different culture to the original Highborne(who happen to be founders of Quel'thalas) that they don't fit into that category anymore, doesn't that mean that "night elf Highborne" aren't Highborne either?

highborne night elves are still night elves and are still highborne. Highborne are still night elves, it's the name we give to the caste of night elves that developed for high arcane mastery. We don't givet his name to high elves or blood elves, they are descendants of highborne, but developed their own culture and we give them a different name.

What makes the Highborne then?

Quel'dorei in Thalassian translates High elf, Quel'dorei in Darnassian translates highborne. Different words are use because they are different.

English is not canon. In WoW there is Common language which is used mainly by humans that can be an equivalent to English but even then, I don't think the Horde speaks Common when we hear English. Elves use Thalassian or Darnassian or Shalassian or Nazja which all derive from a language that wasn't named but dwarves call it Darnassian due to similarities. In these languages both "high elf" and "highborne" are "quel'dorei" so for elves it is the same. However, it is possible that humans call them differently, most likely because one night elves gave them different translation to common.

We have all the evidence already of how nightborne would be received amongst the night elves. The interaction with Valewalker Farodin, the moonugard, the Suramar refugees and Tyrande.

Moonguard and Farodin are not part of Darnassian society.

This is pure speculation. The Darnassians accepted the Shen'dralar, there was reluctance at first, but they accepted the, and their numbers grew dramatically, in stark contrast to such claims. I think there a re people who want the Darnassiasn to be the magic hating long vigil group they perceived them to be in WC3, however these people not only misunderstand the reasons why the arcane was banned, but also don't get what was happening either. They also typically don't updage their lore, and don't follow the changes .. why? Because they aren't night elf fans, and the few that are with this persuasion haven't cared for anything shown about nighte lves after WC3, viewing it all as a catastrophic failure - not realising that they may have missed the truth about the ight elves from the start if they have based the race on hating the arcane.

The highborne are fully accepted... it's amazing how people take this other view. The only ngith elf shown to have such views is MAiev during wolfhear tand ilildan, as well as the pre-legion audio comic. Her motivationsa nd reasons are thoroughly detailed in the nighte lf books and she is shown to be alone in htat singleminded hatred and nonn-acceptance.

Now a discussion on how the night elves may feel about the arcane is a different subject, and I can show you how tihis changes from creation to pre-sundering through various eras, then throughout the long vigil, and then changing again during wow, and how it must be changed

Chronicles state that they are not trusted. Thinking that they gained trust is too only speculation.

Silvermoon is a sister city in the sense that it is the "sister" elf group, the night elves that created it.. but otherwise it isn't, it's an opposite city, one based on the night, moon and stars, while the other is based on the sun. they are both splendid but in different ways, if you're saying their sisters because they're both high magic cities, then I guess that's work too. Just know they're different.

As time wore on, Quel'Thalas became a shining monument to the high elves' efforts and magical prowess. Its beauteous palaces were crafted in the same architectural style as the ancient halls of Kalimdor, yet they were interwoven with the natural topography of the land. Quel'Thalas had become the shining jewel that the elves had longed to create.

This is enough to prove that they are sister cities.

Who says this with a straight that nightborne are purple blood elves.. this is what void elves. Nightborne are arcane culture night elves. They're night elf models skinnier with a different stand animation, blood elves are as much similar to nightborne as they are to night elves - especially the highborne variety.

It is the matter of physical appearance and it is not relevant to the subject of culture. However, I bring you purple blood elf.

Look at them, they are night elves, that have bene living in perpetual night, what makes you think they are not nocturnal.. or did the borne added to night some how confuse you night(borne) elves? Or the elation in their voices when the shield comes down and they say.. "we see the stars once more".. or the Moon symbols all over the city that they didn't take down or change.. unlike the high elves who rebuilt an entirely new city, and live based on the day.

They are called nightborne because they lived for 10000 years without the sun or moon.

Their voiceover refers to joy of seeing stars again after 10000 years, indeed. However, it just sounds much better than "we see the seagulls once more" or "we see the clouds once more".

As for moon symbols on their architecture, remember that nightborne live in ancient temple city. These symbols are relics of time, as they don't worship Elune anymore, but there is no reason to remove it. Why would they destroy their heritage sites? In real life, mostly atheist Europeans do not remove cherubs from their buildings because they are part of their history and they look good. I think nightborne are similar on that matter. Blood elves, at the other hand, had to build a city out of nothing, so they didn't add moon ornaments. They didn't need to build temples and shrines.

What traitorous monarch di dthe night elves have that Elisande was compared to and based on? That everyone is dealing with right now? Oh wait.. Queen Azshara.. could it be, that this is a night elf story based on night elf. could it be that the kael'thas betrayal story was modelled after the night elf story of Azshara, rather than elisande being based on Kael''thas.. when all the comparsions in legion are with Elisande and Azshara, not Kael'thas.

For blood elves Elisande is similar to both Azshara and Kael'thas. Azshara was queen of the blood elves in blood elf story.

Also, Elisande is more similar to Kael'thas than Azshara. Azshara summoned demons out of her vanity and megalomania. Elisande and Kael'thas did that for wellbeing of their people. In both cases we have delusional heroes who doom their people to save them.

It is rumour. Could be completely false. We do know they said they debated it a lot, and felt it was a close one..but awarded the nightborne to the blood elves.

I suspect the official argument was for the horde to get another pretty city and pretty people, bu that's b/s they could have used another race for that and Zuldazar was in the works already, so it's a pretext, the real reason, I suspect (also rumoured) is that they are horde fans and quite fancied the pretty city on the horde because of their current love bias to it.. the senior devs.

Note I said current, because these things can change. blizzard started driving themselves to build uop the horde after classic had 70:30 Alliance to horde ratios.. they've been pushing the horde so hard, many of them have come to like the horde more.like their pet project in wow.. the one they had to think of more creatively to improve and make more attractive...and that trend has continued. so even in legion when the horde was more peopular than the alliance, and they gave a night elf expansion, they couldn't help but take the nicest thing about the night elves and give it to the horde.

It's my opnion, and I feel it's not the junior devs, but a horde majority senior dev that doest this.

A race that is in the night elf lore category and group and has nothing to do with the horde. And while sure all of that can change (as it did), the circumstances say it all

If Blizzard is so biased towards the Horde, why did the Alliance get so powerful Vindicaar? Why did the nightborne lose their Nightwell? How is it possible that Tyrande, despite her divine power, becomes even stronger? Why does everyone turn his back on Sylvanas and player even gets a toy for siding with Saurfang? Why is there greater warmode bonus for the Alliance? Why is the Alliance version of Battle for Dazar'alor easier?

[Toppy]

This string of threads is sad.

Elves arent real, Mace needs to come to terms with this.

[Justpassing]

This string of threads is sad.

Elves arent real, Mace needs to come to terms with this.

Relevant:



Need a megathread for this.

[Mace]

@Mace, sorry to keep you waiting for long. I skimmed your long post and decided to follow your advice to reread Wolfheart. It had been a while since I read it, and I wanted to be certain of my words. I do want to say I respect the time you put into your response to me, so I intend to give it the attention it deserves. We may be on completely opposite sides, and I do wish you would stop creating these threads, but I do respect a good lore discussion. I would like to first put the notes of my read-through of the Highborne portions of the Wolfheart book here at the top, before I read through your points to discuss them. Apologies for a long read.

Refugees from Eldre’Thalas—better known to most in this age by the more apt title Dire Maul—these night elf magi and their fellow survivors remained shunned by many of those in Darnassus. Though the Highborne even now maintained an air of absolute independence, in truth they found themselves in need of others. However, that by no means meant any lacking in arrogance or in their desire to continue their study of the arcane, no matter what the cost.

Malfurion: “You stood by while the queen’s counselor, Xavius, oversaw the creation of the portal that let the Legion into our world; you stood silent when Queen Azshara chose the demons over her own people; and you continue your practice of arcane magic, even though it is the same magic that drew the Legion to us. Even the millennia have not stripped the people’s memories of those final days. It was difficult enough even to gain your kind the right to come to Darnassus...”

• The exchange between Var’dyn and Malfurion makes it clear the Highborne feel ostracized and that integrating them into Night Elf society is a process that’s going to take years.
• In his conversation with the Worgen Eadrik, Malfurion notes that like Genn, Night Elves had been expressing distrust over whatever influence the Highborne might have.
• The Watchers were not the only ones disliking the Nightborne. They are stated as being “among the many uncomfortable with the thought of the Highborne’s eventual return to the fold.”
• The Highborne may only practice their magic on occasion, in limited way, in designated areas with safeguards. A line the Highborne tend to cross.
• Mordent Evenshade clearly confirms that he feels Malfurion saved the Highborne lives by letting them into Darnassus.

There is not a single person in the book that likes the Highborne. They’re a burden to Malfurion and Tyrande. Everyone distrusts them, even Shandris. They are flamboyant, arrogant, and share none of the values of the Night Elves. They’re there because Mordent struck a restrictive accord to let them in, because the Horde purged them from Dire Maul. Even Jarod, the good guy of the story, does not wish for their return to Night Elven society.

SECTION 1

1. Here I will go through each bullet point and the paragraph at the end sharing my comments and thoughts, and why we have reached the conclusions we have reached.

•The exchange between Var’dyn and Malfurion makes it clear the Highborne feel ostracized and that integrating them into Night Elf society is a process that’s going to take years.

a) Yes, they feel ostrascized, but the main source is Maiev,
b) a process malfurion thinks would take a few years only, but that is before discovering Maiev is the one stirring up resistance to their inclusion. notice that it is reasonable to interpret that Malfurion reckons completely getting over the war of the ancients distrust is what would take years - for others reading in, it is not the night elves' position on the arcane, or disturst of the arcane that is scrutinised here, but the highborne from Shen'dralar and lifting the overall ban on any highborne.
c) There is a lot of support for the highborne, including Malfurion and Tyrande, they want all the Kaldorei to be okay with this.

2.

•In his conversation with the Worgen Eadrik, Malfurion notes that like Genn, Night Elves had been expressing distrust over whatever influence the Highborne might have.

This is naturally to be expected, because this is the place they are telling the story of how the Darnassian night elves get over the remainder of their distrust for the highborne.
a) Note that once accepted, there isn't any distrust any longer. Acceptance means they are trusting them, the whole point of the negotaitions was to bring the two groups to the point of mutual trust.
b) Also note that in support of this, there is no indication of distrust in any literature or Kaldorei presentation between Darnassian and Highborne - an indication that the goal of the negotiation was reached after Maiev's plot is uncovered.
c) Also note the conditions the highborne make, that Malfurion agrees and assures them himself, Tyrande and others are supporting and will fully expect. This effectively talks about NO restrictions on magic. No forcing to accept Darnassian culture, they have total control on how magic is practised and how much, they also pick the candidates for arcane magic study, and these candidates become highborne.

3.

•The Watchers were not the only ones disliking the Nightborne. They are stated as being “among the many uncomfortable with the thought of the Highborne’s eventual return to the fold.”

a) Note the word used is "uncomfortable" -- not distrusting, not dislikeing, not hating - also note that the source of the distrust is linked to the anger Malfurion expresses on the shen'dralar's role in the war of the ancients, but notice we are shown who actually hates (i.e. Maiev) and some may be uncomfortable, but they'll get over it full time.
b) Ask yourself why would the night elves do this? then look at the situation.. in all fairness although you might be angry at them for taking so long to join the war of the ancients - they did join it, they did oppose Queen Azshara, and an Ancient fought for and beside them. They also come uncorrupted and free of addiction, with intentions to help.
c) Also note the Long vigil is over.. the reason for banning the arcane doesn't exist anymore, the night elves also don't hate the arcane, the night elves are no longer in the long vigil - they are out of isolation, and rebuilding again - it's life sort of back to how it was a long time ago.

- the logical reasons for the night elves to hate the arcane, limit or restrict it or the highborne, oppose arcane magic aren't there. It is only overcoming old prejudices, you can see why Malfurion is quite optimistic, he also feels the night elves need to move forward..and he's a druid.
- if the night elves were all like Maiev, then I would once again seriously question and doubt blizzard's capacity to write or stick to the characteristics of the races.. you can't describe a race as super intelligent, wise with over 10k years of experience and geneirally benevolent and expect them to still be


4.

•The Highborne may only practice their magic on occasion, in limited way, in designated areas with safeguards. A line the Highborne tend to cross

That is not the agreement that was negotiated. As mentioned above, the deal Malfurion is arguing for is the full terms presented by the highborne. This also correlates with logic.
a) The difficulty the night elves have post WC3 is not with arcane or the practice of it, it was the anger of the highborne attitude and their role in the war of the ancients. It is not the magic they hated either, or the civilization - it was the addiction and reckless /abusive and decadent use of magic that led to the unthinkable for night elves - summoning a world destroying force, fully aware of their intentions.
b) night elves don't have a problem with the arcane source itself - it lifted them out of darkness, made them who they were, extends life, boosts intelligence, stature - the energy can be utilised to boost nature too and cleanse impurities when blessed by the priestess. It's only drawback was during the long vigil - it could summon the legion

5.

•Mordent Evenshade clearly confirms that he feels Malfurion saved the Highborne lives by letting them into Darnassus.

Yes.. If I remember right, the shen'dralar neeed the allegiance too, as do the Darnassians. This is not all 1-sided like some people foolishly think. Both sides have something the other needs. It wasn't the Dranassians dictating terms to the shen'dralar. The Darnassians needed the power of the arcane back, they show they aren't as prejudiced as some fnas think because they've been allied to arcane wilelding humans, high elves and draenei - the problem with the Thalassians is no longer the arcane, in TBC the problem is with the blood elves recklessly using magic, which is something the high elves do not, then blood elves killing night elves too.

b) The night elves need the magical power, the shen'dralar need allies. According to a blizz panel the year before, the Shen'dralar had discovered Deathwing's plot and Azshara is trying to poach them after the events of Dire Maul instance. They are without a city, weaned off of addiction and corruption, and have likely encountered the druids in Feralas, which is why we are told by them in Cataclysm Feralas zone that Estulan is uncorrupted for instance.

The night elves are beset by enemies, they have a powerful birthright heritage, and ancient experts willing to join their side who are not corrupted or addicted. The shen'dralar want to survive and rebuild, restore tehir city and legacy, they want to freely practice magic without getting all addicted and compromised like before. They are proud of their hertage and want to restore their peoples.

c) And so anyone looking in knows its a win win situation for both sides.. which is why Malfurion is confident about the proposal, and why Tyrande also supports it.. only those with an irrational prejudice would oppose - and this is shown to be maiev, who actively tries to stir up hatred.

There is not a single person in the book that likes the Highborne. They’re a burden to Malfurion and Tyrande. Everyone distrusts them, even Shandris. They are flamboyant, arrogant, and share none of the values of the Night Elves. They’re there because Mordent struck a restrictive accord to let them in, because the Horde purged them from Dire Maul. Even Jarod, the good guy of the story, does not wish for their return to Night Elven society.

1. Liking is not the issue here, neither does it say no one likes the highborne. I find it very hard to believe that the highborne order is not only accepted, but has streams of night elves joining it, has former highborne returning to the institution if it wasn't liked by anyone or the race didn't believe in their potential here - it doesn't fit the narrative , nor what we know of the night elves.
2. Everyone distrusts them is not true at all. Shandris is shown to distrust the order of highborne thalyssra is connected o - i.e. the ones who drwew the legion, I believe she is speaking generally of the highborne order in the mindset of Azshara and her lackeys, not those who have been reformed and operating in their right mind. I see no reason for her to distrust them or the likes of the Farondis either - unless she was as erratic and insane as Maiev is.. which she is not. She is also quick to turst Thalyssra as well, acknowledging Thalyssra's points.. it feels more like mistrust directed at a hordeie rather than all highborne of all eras and of all times.
3. Flamboyance is not a sin or a dislike amongst night elves that I have ever seen. Druids like Malfuiron preferred very simple clothing and lifestyle, but that's the Order's way. The priests aren't like that, Monks are like that, but mages aren't - some orders require you to be austere,it's in their philosophy. to claim they hate flamboyance is misleading.
Arrogance - yes, without a doubt most Darnassians would hate arrogance, also without a doubt Darnassians have shown arrogance too, the whole building of Teldrassil, their " proud" new home was an act of hubris - even though their nature isn't that and they hate it. Arrogance is not a reliable metric.
Furthermore we can see that some of theshen'darlar highborne aren't haughty or arrogant - I can't say Mordant Evenshade or Estulan comes across.

Saying that, highborne is a different culture and mindset, whiles some of it may appear arrogant, that is not to say no one amongst the Darnassians likes them, nor is it to say that the order is marred exclusively by this.

4. I wasn'n't aware Jarod didn't wish the shen'dralar back - can you quote or provided a reference for this? Bear in mind to check the context to determine whether he si referring to the highborne aorder of the invasion period of the pre-sundering era (which nobody wants and which the shen'dralar are not representative off) - this is a n important distinction, because sometimes a term can be used but it's not referring to every one of that race or class - just a particular group especially if there is a notorious one.

[allawyn]

Your premise is backward. The Nightborne didn't reject the Night Elves. Tyrande reject the Nightborne.

And, in the end, nobody is going to want to go through the same whining about not getting the race you wanted like we did with the the "High Elves".

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

Is this Mace guy have a job irl?