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  1. #21
    because every level feels like it matters.

    that's really all there is to it.

  2. #22
    Stood in the Fire Agrossive's Avatar
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    Retail needs a hard reset. Or even death of your character. Theres been to much history and power accumulation. They need a fresh start to make it interesting again for me. They should commit to no expac for 3 or 4 years and just release BC and Wotlk servers. That way they can have the time to build a massive refresh of wow.

  3. #23
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    Classic outdoors experience is way better in a few aspects:
    - roads are usually a safe spot from mobs
    - in most places, mobs aren't so densely placed as in recent expansions
    - in many places, mobs patrol a small area, letting you get away without combat if you are a bit patient. Also they may punish you by adding extra mobs if you pull them when they move close to their friends.
    - most mobs have definitely smaller aggro radius compared to live. Level difference also matters, being just 1-2 levels above the mobs compared to 1-2 levels below is rather different. We no longer have this due to scaling.
    - mobs definitely do not follow you for "half the map" like they do on retail, most mobs leave you alone after 40-50 yards. Dropping combat is definitely easier. In classic I can pull 3 mobs, keep hitting 1 and the other 2 will reset quickly, while I can keep one engaged. I can't remember the last time when retail allowed this. Mobs just keep sticking because why not. Or the one I keep hitting resets together with the others.

    As a result, questing/pulling is definitely more tactical than now.
    Also, getting around on the ground is way way less frustrating (if you ignore how much time you must sink into it).

    I definitely support this model over the current shitfest - everything is full of mobs, you constantly deal with unwanted aggro of mostly insignificant and uninteresting mobs, the whole thing is frustrating as hell.
    Last edited by Zka; 2019-08-30 at 01:33 PM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by JohnRoads View Post
    Yes the retail leveling is faster than classic, but judging from the amount of people selling lvling boosts and m+ boosts, the popularity of the character boost and the overall opposition against delaying flying and doing world quests, I would argue that overall the playerbase of retail is against spending time out in the world. I love retail instead and I wish it would have a more sense of danger, but I think the overall thing that people find fun in classic and miss in retail could still be there if they wanted to.
    I personally don't think it can, due to how incredibly powerful our characters are compared to the menial enemies we face in retail world content. We're heroes, champions and commanders and our strength isn't just going to go away, with perhaps the one exception being during and just after leveling in a new expansion (give it one week after release and that feeling is gone for 2 years). When you don't have to be afraid of anything in the world other than enemy players you can't really get that feeling back.

    It doesn't help that we have a ton of tools to survive, heal and escape in retail when we finally face something that is a tiny bit of a challenge. We don't normally have to rely on outside healing sources on world bosses, we can often sustain ourselves even if the boss takes minutes to kill. It's just a completely different game provided you have the slightest idea of how to play your character, and for me it's very hard to even pretend that feeling of danger still exists.

    Now, with that said I don't think the majority of the retail playerbase actually wants that feeling of danger. They're not traditional mmorpg players and there's a reason why retail has steered the ship in a different direction. Whether that's good or bad depends on who you ask.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Magicpot View Post
    Cause I don't see nobody in the open world. I leveled 6 chars 1-120 in BFA, and I've seen maybe 3 people while doing it, outside of dungeons, which I didn't really do. And the people I am seeing are just like me, aimlessly and effortlessly cutting through as many mobs at once as they are able to pull without them resetting. It's been years since I've had to break a sweat doing world content due to powercreep and heirloom items.
    It'll be the same for vanilla when the bulk of the people staying are done with leveling for the most part, rest will be sporadic activity or gatherers farming nodes in specific locations to control the market.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Demona3 View Post
    Yes and no. When I played classic - when it was first released - I remember hitting 60, then immediately heading to Winterspring to start my grind for the Winterspring Frostsaber. I spent 3 months, doing the same repeatable quest. Kill 5 (or was it 10?) mobs, run all the way back to get a 50 rep turn in. Keep in mind, during this time, Molten Core was not opened yet and people were still trying to figure out the Onyxia attunement.

    So in a sense, I was alone at 60, but doing a quest over and over for about 3 months. During this time, nodes were only 1 person could pick them, so I had issues with retarded chinese gold farmers constantly trying to steal nodes by dragging mobs to you or, simply using a bug that would allow them to travel under the world at super speed to race to nodes. It was crazy.

    Anyway - Once MC opened, I went to raid and there were plenty of people to raid with and hang with. The world felt great back then, and blizz actually engaged with people with the entire AQ opening. I'll never forget AQ, it was so epic the day it was opened. The entire server working together to accomplish a goal.
    What the hell are you talking about ? I'm talking about level 1-60, not about being alone at max level, of course you won't be alone at max level, since I'll also be playing

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by ghostprotocol View Post
    dude, in classic wow you're an adventurer, a nobody with cloth gear and a stick.

    in retail you're a hero. totally different experience. They should have just scrapped leveling zones in expansions and just made it about raids.
    Can't lock people down for 2-3 years with just raid content. Leveling 1-120 is huge filler with a lot of replay value. Alt-holics like myself eat it up. Re-experiencing content with other class/race combos has proven to have a lot of replay value. People would get bored of just progressing through the same raids or doing PVP every day.

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    Now, with that said I don't think the majority of the retail playerbase actually wants that feeling of danger. They're not traditional mmorpg players and there's a reason why retail has steered the ship in a different direction. Whether that's good or bad depends on who you ask.
    To a degree, I think this is correct. However, Legion did do this. Argus was a PITA to quest through if you went in with a fresh char w/o much, or any, raid gear in that range. On the other hand, if you do have raid gear and is BiS and all, why should you be afraid of some measly world mobs other than mini/world bosses? You shouldn't, it breaks the immersion and progression.

    Be better prepared/geared = less threat from everything overall. Outside of specific areas/instances where a group is needed etc., like world bosses and mini-boss elites etc.

    At some point, being scared of everything gets very boring and tedious when all you wanna do is go about business you're required to do and have already done plenty of times. There's no fun in being artificially held back at that point.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Halyon View Post
    To a degree, I think this is correct. However, Legion did do this. Argus was a PITA to quest through if you went in with a fresh char w/o much, or any, raid gear in that range. On the other hand, if you do have raid gear and is BiS and all, why should you be afraid of some measly world mobs other than mini/world bosses? You shouldn't, it breaks the immersion and progression.

    Be better prepared/geared = less threat from everything overall. Outside of specific areas/instances where a group is needed etc., like world bosses and mini-boss elites etc.

    At some point, being scared of everything gets very boring and tedious when all you wanna do is go about business you're required to do and have already done plenty of times. There's no fun in being artificially held back at that point.
    I somewhat agree with this, but the main issue I've got is that it takes so little time to get over the hump from where world content is relevant until you can mass pull. We're literally talking single digit hours to go from struggling with 3 mobs (freshly dinged) to AoEing 10 mobs (low m+/wq geared) in a game genre where time has in the past been the primary currency. Ofcourse there are other challenging areas of the game, but it just doesn't really translate well to the kind of mmo I personally enjoy. I still do love the raiding part though, and be sure that it is second to none on the market.

    I'd like to add that this is an issue in all types of content if you ask me. The initial gearing is incredibly fast in both M+ and raiding because there's so much loot being thrown at you (immense power creep at the start of the tier), after which you have to pray for those single important items (trinkets/azerite etc) to drop for the rest of the tier (minimal increase after start to end). If gear was more scarce and power scaling more linear this wouldn't be the case (and people likely wouldn't unsub 1 month after the patch because they feel done with everything), but obviously that's not everyone's cup of tea either.
    Last edited by Arainie; 2019-08-30 at 02:17 PM.

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Laysson View Post
    What the hell are you talking about ? I'm talking about level 1-60, not about being alone at max level, of course you won't be alone at max level, since I'll also be playing
    Didn't you say you were going to be alone at 60? I was trying to say you wouldn't really be alone unless you're grinding something. I was also sharing a memory from when I did the winterspring frostaber rep quest over and over before molten core was opened.

    I'm currently not playing. No real desire to do so. I enjoyed it when it was new 15 years ago, I'd rather keep those memories.
    Yes, I draw my own avatars.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Demona3 View Post
    Didn't you say you were going to be alone at 60? I was trying to say you wouldn't really be alone unless you're grinding something. I was also sharing a memory from when I did the winterspring frostaber rep quest over and over before molten core was opened.

    I'm currently not playing. No real desire to do so. I enjoyed it when it was new 15 years ago, I'd rather keep those memories.
    No, I said you would be alone leveling, since most players will be at max level ^^

    ps : you should play it, it's another Classic experience, not the same as 15 years ago

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Zka View Post
    Classic outdoors experience is way better in a few aspects:
    - roads are usually a safe spot from mobs
    - in most places, mobs aren't so densely placed as in recent expansions
    - in many places, mobs patrol a small area, letting you get away without combat if you are a bit patient. Also they may punish you by adding extra mobs if you pull them when they move close to their friends.
    - most mobs have definitely smaller aggro radius compared to live. Level difference also matters, being just 1-2 levels above the mobs compared to 1-2 levels below is rather different. We no longer have this due to scaling.
    - mobs definitely do not follow you for "half the map" like they do on retail, most mobs leave you alone after 40-50 yards. Dropping combat is definitely easier. In classic I can pull 3 mobs, keep hitting 1 and the other 2 will reset quickly, while I can keep one engaged. I can't remember the last time when retail allowed this. Mobs just keep sticking because why not. Or the one I keep hitting resets together with the others.

    As a result, questing/pulling is definitely more tactical than now.
    Also, getting around on the ground is way way less frustrating (if you ignore how much time you must sink into it).

    I definitely support this model over the current shitfest - everything is full of mobs, you constantly deal with unwanted aggro of mostly insignificant and uninteresting mobs, the whole thing is frustrating as hell.
    This I actually agree with, 100% true.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Arainie View Post
    I somewhat agree with this, but the main issue I've got is that it takes so little time to get over the hump from where world content is relevant until you can mass pull. We're literally talking single digit hours to go from struggling with 3 mobs (freshly dinged) to AoEing 10 mobs (low m+/wq geared) in a game genre where time has in the past been the primary currency. Ofcourse there are other challenging areas of the game, but it just doesn't really translate well to the kind of mmo I personally enjoy. I still do love the raiding part though, and be sure that it is second to none on the market.

    I'd like to add that this is an issue in all types of content if you ask me. The initial gearing is incredibly fast in both M+ and raiding because there's so much loot being thrown at you (immense power creep at the start of the tier), after which you have to pray for those single important items (trinkets/azerite etc) to drop for the rest of the tier (minimal increase after start to end). If gear was more scarce and power scaling more linear this wouldn't be the case (and people likely wouldn't unsub 1 month after the patch because they feel done with everything), but obviously that's not everyone's cup of tea either.
    Unless you get carried or is made of gold, it won't take a few hours for the gear to just steamroll. Short few days at worst though. But still, neither current or classic do gear scaling to world content that well, in my opinion.

    Story-wise as well, you can't keep saving everyone's collective asses and still be a nobody who's struggling with getting by.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Magicpot View Post
    Cause I don't see nobody in the open world. I leveled 6 chars 1-120 in BFA, and I've seen maybe 3 people while doing it, outside of dungeons, which I didn't really do. And the people I am seeing are just like me, aimlessly and effortlessly cutting through as many mobs at once as they are able to pull without them resetting. It's been years since I've had to break a sweat doing world content due to powercreep and heirloom items.
    That's a load of shit if i've ever seen one.
    People don't forgive, they forget. - Rust Cohle

  15. #35
    Bloodsail Admiral Coffer's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by uopayroll View Post
    So you are saying that it has been years since you healed, buffed, or helped anybody? Why did you stop?
    You spend so much time mounted up and running or even flying around to different objectives (stressful and unfun objectives that last 1-3 hours before they leave you with nothing to do for the rest of the day, mind you) that taking time off to help a random guy is only going to hurt you.


  16. #36
    Ive found leveling in classic to be largely a miserable experience so far to be honest. I look forward to the endgame somewhat though.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Laysson View Post
    Level up in few months when everyone is max level and you find yourself alone, again.
    It still feels better because you're in a world that actually has the potential to kill you if your careless. Actually makes the random acts of kindness even better when they're more sparse.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    Nah nah, see... I live by one simple creed: You might catch more flies with honey, but to catch honeys you gotta be fly.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by david0925 View Post
    Some people need social interaction to be forced upon them, or force people to interact with them.

    I played in Vanilla, had a friend list, did stuff together. Same thing is still there after WoTLK released dungeon finder.
    I prefer the BfA interaction modus. If you want to help someone, nobody is holding you back. And you even profit via shared tagging, though most of the time this is not even relevant because loot from random mobs out there is mostly irrelevant. I don't mind tossing out heals or buffs now and then, or tanking some rare for random stranges when I come across. Sometimes, karma returns the favor when a random stranger helps me. This happens in BfA acutally, but I am playing on a smaller RP-PvE server, so this probably also comes from there.

    Personal tagging is forcing competition, thus less social behaviour. Forcing people to group up because so many are waiting for a respawn of a quest mob is not really a social design. At least not one which shows true friendliness and helpfulness.

  19. #39
    Immortal Zka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by scubi666stacy View Post
    I prefer the BfA interaction modus. If you want to help someone, nobody is holding you back.
    Barring a few specific scenarios and circumstances noone ever really needs help outdoors in BfA. You can help, but it's moot.

  20. #40
    The Undying Lochton's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Magicpot View Post
    The quests are bad. Quality of life is low. You get largely useless items. You spend a lot of time walking, and you spend even more time running to trainers for new skills.

    Yet, leveling on classic feels infinitely better then it does on retail. Why is that?

    There are a lot of other people around, and you have the power and opportunity to help them out and make their gameplay better. Players are appropriately weak and challenged that healing someone who is in a tight spot or dispensing a buff or some water feels fucking great.

    Most of my fun of leveling a lv.19 priest so far has come from healing, buffing or rezzing someone who I came across while leveling. Then it hit me: it has been several years since I've seen anything like this on retail.

    Some takeaways for the next expansion, blizz.
    The big ruining point as I've said in other threads before, is when we were made to be bigger than the random adventurer - when we became officers of our faction, commanders of missions, leaders of classes and emmisaries of war. We are too high up the ladder - and in a way, the rewards given fits what we are on progression servers.

    In Classic, you are Joe/Jane Schmuck, the adventurer, the guy, the dude who thought that today he/she was going to do a difference to the world. You are rewarded so as well, 'thank you unknown stranger, for helping me, have these gloves I had for spare'.
    FOMO: "Fear Of Missing Out", also commonly known as people with a mental issue of managing time and activities, many expecting others to fit into their schedule so they don't miss out on things to come. If FOMO becomes a problem for you, do seek help, it can be a very unhealthy lifestyle..

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