Star Wars Episode IX: The Rise of Skywalker

[s_bushido]

T'was just a scratch! The Supremacy and the Resurgent star destroyers looked just fine after the maneuver!

The Supremacy was certainly crippled, but they gave no indication that it was in any danger of blowing up, like they did in Return of the Jedi when the 2nd Death Star's reactor was hit.

I guess we'll just have to ignore this can of worms, a 3.4km cruiser going thru the DS-1's main reactor (they had the fucking plans) would've been a really bad plan.

According to wiki, the Supremacy was 60km wide and 13km long, and the Death Star had a diameter of 120km. Considering that all that ramming the Raddus into the Supremacy did was cut off a wing, why assume that they even had the means to penetrate far enough into the Death Star to do fatal damage? And why would they want to sacrifice a ship that large/expensive just to do it (they still had the rest of the Empire to deal with), when a coordinated strike with smaller craft was just as capable?

[HitRefresh]

Ok so I don't like either film, and having a sci-fi universe which isn't internally consistent is a problem...but none of this is the real problem.

The real problem is that both TLJ and Phantom Menace lack stakes, have bad pacing, poor character development and dialogue, and all of this leads to the vast majority of the action sequences feeling dull.

Trying to cater to fans rather than just make a good movie is why both are bad. TFA was almost a complete rehash, which it was criticised for by fanboys, but it was still a good movie - JJ Abrams made a specific choice to set the tone for the rest of the trilogy and he did so very competently. Rian Johnson had a blank canvas laid out for him, and he subverted everyone's expectations in that he made a real fucking stinker.

JJ Abrams now has a real task in front of him to salvage anything from this huge mess, but the challenges involved have absolutely fuck all to do with 'plot holes', which are usually just used as a way for people who don't really get how to analyse a movie to pretend like they're a critic all of a sudden.

Not trying to sound like a snob (also not trying too hard not to), but if you don't really understand critical analaysis of film from a basic structural perspective, chances are the reasons why you think a movie is good or bad aren't the actual reasons why that movie is good or bad. Even with all of the bullshit in The Phantom Menace, if a few things were tweaked and edited down you could almost completely salvage it. There's a good film in there somewhere, it was just very poorly done.

He's basically going to have to make the arc of a trilogy with two movies because the second movie didn't do shit for the arc.

[Elkfingers]

He's basically going to have to make the arc of a trilogy with two movies because the second movie didn't do shit for the arc.

Yeah it's totally scuffed. At this point I have to assume we're doing a Kylo redemption arc and Rey's fully turning to the dark side and taking his place as the main antagonist. Those are the only arcs that are really set up.

At least I hope that's what we're doing, cos otherwise it's a bit of an Episode III situation all over again.

[Sorshen]

Even with all of the bullshit in The Phantom Menace, if a few things were tweaked and edited down you could almost completely salvage it. There's a good film in there somewhere, it was just very poorly done. Point being, if the basic elements needed to make the movie decent are in place, you don't notice the other shit as much or at all.

Well said.

[Fayolynn]

Yoda being Yoda isn't breaking anything.

The problem is Yoda wasn't being Yoda, he was being crazy swamp hermit. You are right it doesn't break anything, but it also made zero sense in the context of the film. In ESB he was only a crazy swamp hermit as a test of character, he dropped the act after Luke failed the test. In TLJ he was a crazy swamp hermit because they wanted another callback to the OT for nestolgia purposes.

[Gallahadd]

No. He went off to study the Force, and his own conflicts. Hermitage isn't "brooding", particularly not when your bad decisions and inner struggle with darkness got all your students killed and you almost killed your nephew because you were afraid of him. While he was asleep, I'll note.

Also, and this REALLY can't be stressed enough, fucking up and then going into self empossed exile to brood is like... Jedi 101.

The standard Jedi Master reaction to a big loss, like Luke went through, is to fuck off to some deserted planet and mope about, until the next chosen one comes along to fix your shit. Hell, wouldn't be surprised if that wasn't a lesson in Yoda's training on Dagobah.

[eschatological]

The problem is Yoda wasn't being Yoda, he was being crazy swamp hermit. You are right it doesn't break anything, but it also made zero sense in the context of the film. In ESB he was only a crazy swamp hermit as a test of character, he dropped the act after Luke failed the test. In TLJ he was a crazy swamp hermit because they wanted another callback to the OT for nestolgia purposes.

He was very much being Yoda. Just because he laughed at one point doesn't mean he went into full-swamp hermit trickster Yoda. He taught Luke a couple serious lessons, including the burning of the Jedi tree. That wasn't a troll, it was him following through on what Luke knew he had to do, but was failing at doing. Sort of like lifting his X-Wing out of the water.

[Easo]

Just going to say that those endless Star Destroyers from the trailer are most likely just going to get deus exed somehow. Like, that gas is explosive or some other crap.
Or just forgotten. I really do want to see my space battles, but rebels do not really have a fleet of capital ships. So, deus ex machina it is.

[Lorgar Aurelian]

Suspension of disbelief comes with an agreement with the audience on what the limits are, all decent fantasy settings have established in-universe rules.
I dare say we can't invoke the EU as an argument for something that happens on-screen, it was dismissed because it was tainted with cans of worms and (imho) arguably low quality material that only saw the light of day because it was bringing in loads of $$$ via licensing.

The whole point of the making the EU legends was so that they can take stuff they want from it. The limits of starwars have never been set by just the movies there are rules they just aren’t set on screen in most cases.

[s_bushido]

Just going to say that those endless Star Destroyers from the trailer are most likely just going to get deus exed somehow. Like, that gas is explosive or some other crap.
Or just forgotten. I really do want to see my space battles, but rebels do not really have a fleet of capital ships. So, deus ex machina it is.

It would be interesting if the fleet was inactive and the rebels were the ones to use it against the First Order.

[Easo]

It would be interesting if the fleet was inactive and the rebels were the ones to use it against the First Order.

Mothballed SD's sounds interesting (Would have preferred Venators in that case, though). Then again crewing even one capital ship is massive manpower investment which rebels can't do, but who knows, shenanigans can happen.

[Wangming]

Just going to say that those endless Star Destroyers from the trailer are most likely just going to get deus exed somehow. Like, that gas is explosive or some other crap.
Or just forgotten. I really do want to see my space battles, but rebels do not really have a fleet of capital ships. So, deus ex machina it is.

Don't worry. TLJ showed us that First Order drednaughts can't hit X-Wings and their turbolaser cannons aren't shielded. A fighter squadron can criple that entire fleet. Those are the rules it seems. And you need to be consistent.

[PACOX]

It would be interesting if the fleet was inactive and the rebels were the ones to use it against the First Order.

There's a shot in the previous teaser that has a Star Destroyer with a Republic insignia.

[bledgor]

God how can anyone be hyped after the monumental piece of shit that was TLJ. That movie had enough issues you could write a book about all the issues and it would rival a series in length.

Watching the trailer it just does nothing, it continues to try to use tid bits from the original to grab fans while doing these little teases to make it seem like its going to be dark/surprising/different, but honestly I don't buy it in the slightest.

I spent 3 minutes trying to type out ways they could bring me back in, and it made my sad, because I realized nothing I typed would, I think Disney actually fully killed my desire to see future Star Wars (movies at least, games I'll give some more chances).

[Jastall]

Throwing the "but it has magic and shiet" is also not an argument. Bombs and lightspeed kamikaze aren't magic. They're just breaking consistency and previously defined in-universe limits for the sake of... something.

Star Wars has been breaking what little consistency it had for a long-ass time. Bombers were in the OT and there's tons of totally nonsensical shit like sound and explosions in space, or WW1-style dogfighting by spacecrafts sporting lasers and proton torpedoes that somehow have lower targeting range than 1940-1950 real-life aircrafts. And ramming ships was in the OT as well. RotJ says hi.

Not that TLJ doing these things is good, mind you, but anyone watching friggin Star Wars for the science and internal consistency is kinda like someone watching Fast and Furious for the deep dialog and intricate plotting, or watching some avant-garde French low-budget film for the action and special effects. You're scraping your knuckles on the wrong door methinks.

[Darknessvamp]

Just going to say that those endless Star Destroyers from the trailer are most likely just going to get deus exed somehow. Like, that gas is explosive or some other crap.
Or just forgotten. I really do want to see my space battles, but rebels do not really have a fleet of capital ships. So, deus ex machina it is.

Don't worry they can just hyperdrive a ship through them.

[Wangming]

there's tons of totally nonsensical shit like sound and explosions in space,

Those are acceptable breaks from reality for viewer enjoyment. Real life doesn't have background music either. Also, having sound and explosions doesn't break consistency if it was always the case in the movie universe. Those are the rules. Suddenly taking it away however does break it. It doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as you follow them.

[Endus]

Those are acceptable breaks from reality for viewer enjoyment. Real life doesn't have background music either. Also, having sound and explosions doesn't break consistency if it was always the case in the movie universe. Those are the rules. Suddenly taking it away however does break it. It doesn't matter what the rules are, as long as you follow them.

And TLJ didn't break Star Wars' "rules". It broke some fans' headcanon, but not the actual "rules" of the setting. No one said "it's impossible to Hyperspace a ship into another ship as a battering ram", before they did that in TLJ. They DID mention Interdictors in Rebels, but Hux also said he wanted the Resistance fleet to Hyperspace away, because he wanted to pursue them with his tracking device; if he's got Interdictors in the fleet, they're deliberately not being used.

Some people imagined that such a rule existed, but it's in their heads (or in Legends non-canon material). Not in the actual canon "rules".

[Kaleredar]

T'was just a scratch! The Supremacy and the Resurgent star destroyers looked just fine after the maneuver!
I guess we'll just have to ignore this can of worms, a 3.4km cruiser going thru the DS-1's main reactor (they had the fucking plans) would've been a really bad plan.

I've made the momentum argument in front of my friends when TJL came out, doesn't make it less silly from a tactical standpoint tho.

It was clearly still operational.

So what? Even space wizardry needs rules. What is possible and what is not? Hell in Harry Potter you have fucking magic. Yet there are very specific rules. Like you can not conjure food out of thin air.

Sure, a lot of beloved movies contradict their own rules (Back to the Future, Matrix, Terminator 2) but that doesn't mean TLJ gets a pass. How do Force Ghosts work? Ho does gravity work? What are the Resistance and the First Order capable of in terms of technology? Where do they get that technology? These need to be clearly established and then followed.

No, it doesn't. It's a sci-fi fantasy story.

Frankly, OVER explaining things is what turned a lot of people off the prequels.

Oh, the force? You thought it was a universal, elegant power that binds life and death in an unknowable, intangible and beautiful way? Yeah no that's just tiny little cells that can be measured by blood test, just like diabetes.

You're saying you want more of that?

[Wangming]

No, it doesn't. It's a sci-fi fantasy story.

Frankly, OVER explaining things is what turned a lot of people off the prequels.

Oh, the force? You thought it was a universal, elegant power that binds life and death in an unknowable, intangible and beautiful way? Yeah no that's just tiny little cells that can be measured by blood test, just like diabetes.

You're saying you want more of that?

Now you are just doing it on purpose are you? I mean you can't be this stupid.

I will repeat again slowly in case you really are. EVEN. FANTASY. STORIES. NEED. TO. HAVE. RULES. EVEN. HARRY. POTTER. HAS. RULES. MAGIC. HAS. RULES.

Got it? Good. Explaining the origin and setting the limits is two different things. There is no explanation to where magic comes from in Harry Potter. But we know what can and can't be done. Every fictional universe, no matter how fantastical needs to be consistent with its rules. Like demons only being permanently killable within the Twisting Nether.

Inconsistency is a flaw.