Based on this - next expansion will be great!

[kaminaris]

No one is talking about the individual levels.

It's all about the 3% extra stam ones and the minor traits.

It doesn't matter that they're "pretty much finite". Casually getting AP by doing an M+, raid, expeditions and emissaries does not get someone to 65 still at this point.

Because that's exactly what I've been doing and I'm just about to hit 64.
Past that even, the fact that you're still having to do an M+ a week an expeditions just supports my point.

Not really, there is a huge difference between Legion and BfA. You really don't need to farm AP at all if having 62 level neck (im 2 levels behind you) gives you 90%+ performance on mythic raids. Sure I could get 65 to get another trait then stop caring about AP totally. Thing you couldn't do in legion as raider.

Casuals? Can completely forget it exists. Might as well untrack all WQ with azerite as reward, skip islands and just do M+ for chest.

- - - Updated - - -

So let's say we have 5,000 players on the forums, and 4,000 say they enjoyed Legion more, and 1,000 say they enjoyed WoD more? Which is normally the case when we see a thread like that, percentage-wise? You just dismiss that data? It's the only data we got. I got a "tiny slice from forums." You got NOTHING.That's closer to "universally" than you got.

There is no "lets say", its just your baseless assumption not tied to reality. Like removal of master look according to forum screamers should have been worst thing ever happend, turns out, exactly the opposite.
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-vs-master-loot-bfa/
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-...er-loot-bfa-2/
So any wow related forum is not even remotely close to having accurate data because vast majority of players, don't post on forums.

[Kyphael]

There is no "lets say", its just your baseless assumption not tied to reality. Like removal of master look according to forum screamers should have been worst thing ever happend, turns out, exactly the opposite.
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-vs-master-loot-bfa/
http://blog.askmrrobot.com/personal-...er-loot-bfa-2/
So any wow related forum is not even remotely close to having accurate data because vast majority of players, don't post on forums.

But a percentage of the player base does post on the forums, and that's still a statistic to go by, the only statistic we could go by. If we were to poll a poll right now asking which expansion is the worst, and there have been many threads, WoD always leads by a landslide. Data supports that because it is well documented WoD had the steepest subscription drop in history of the game. Stop evading that and own up to it. Player participation reflects game quality. It's the only way to quantify whether Legion is better than WoD or vice-versa.

[TheFirstOnes]

@Swnem

I love those OST's, but for me, nothing beats these 3.

(I love a LOT of themes from Warcraft, so these 3 are basically nothing more than a taste in terms of my favorites)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhqQoCmiaDw&t=49s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdM3DnDKJXc&t=77s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1JNJRPyAMs

[Kyphael]

Your opinion is purely based on content quantity, not on quality. So, yes... tolerate the boredom all you wish. Hide behind the mob mentality all you wish. It does not change the fact i'm right.
Btw, raids and class design, yes. The way you interact with the game. The fact your journey had an end on every patch. It was fun to play and was rewarding to hit the goal. Legion on is a hamster wheel. It never ends and playing the classes is mind numbing with how much they were dumbed down.

So, there, now you know it and you can go back and hide on your mobs of nonsense again. Also, curiously enough you do it when talking about WoD too, buying into the mob mentality that the devs dropped it cause it was bad, when in fact it was the cancelation of titan and coaching necessary that threw the project deadlines off and they decided to cut on WoD rather than delay the next expansion in order to get back on scheduale.

This is not going to go anywhere. You have no other way to prove your point other than "muh opinion, I'm right, WoW is boring now, it used to be cool!" with opinions on design changes. When has WoW never been a hamster wheel? When you finished BC, it didn't matter that you had killed Illidan, Kael'thas, and Lady Vashj. When Wrath launched, you were right back to getting greens killing spiders or something comparable. Rinse and repeat. Is Artifact Power what bothers you, because it's not a finite resource? It was easily ignored. The personal journey still ends when you kill every boss in in that expansion if you're a raider.

It doesn't matter if AP has no cap. Is it a crappy design? Yeah, Blizzard did it so there is no more BiS and people truly don't feel like they completed something so they did add an arbitrary treadmill of energy source, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to stay subbed, otherwise you're not any smarter than the hamster Blizzard thinks you are. AP isn't better than tier gear in my opinion either, but it doesn't fundamentally alter the game to the point where you still can't enjoy it. After all, how different was the tier system from AP or Azerirte if those purples get traded in for greens the moment a new expansion launches, anyway?

[Swnem]

This is not going to go anywhere. You have no other way to prove your point other than "muh opinion, I'm right, WoW is boring now, it used to be cool!" with opinions on design changes. When has WoW never been a hamster wheel? When you finished BC, it didn't matter that you had killed Illidan, Kael'thas, and Lady Vashj. When Wrath launched, you were right back to getting greens killing spiders or something comparable. Rinse and repeat. Is Artifact Power what bothers you, because it's not a finite resource? It was easily ignored. The personal journey still ends when you kill every boss in in that expansion if you're a raider.

It doesn't matter if AP has no cap. Is it a crappy design? Yeah, Blizzard did it so there is no more BiS and people truly don't feel like they completed something so they did add an arbitrary treadmill of energy source, but it doesn't mean you HAVE to stay subbed, otherwise you're not any smarter than the hamster Blizzard thinks you are. AP isn't better than tier gear in my opinion either, but it doesn't fundamentally alter the game to the point where you still can't enjoy it. After all, how different was the tier system from AP or Azerirte if those purples get traded in for greens the moment a new expansion launches, anyway?

Proof? I do have. Go see how many guilds have cleared each tier since Tomb of Sargeras in wow. I have seen people leave and guilds crumble. But hey, you got this general mob opinion you brewed in the forums. That's great proof right there.
Blizz stoped giving us sub numbers. Funny that ain't it? How can you even claim there was a subscribers hold in Legion is beyond me.

Also, you have not been paying atention. The game was not a NEVERENDING hamster wheel before. You did get to the end of a patch when you killed the boss and got your BiS gear for whatever difficulty you prefered. It was finite. The wheel would return, but it wasn't constantly spinning.
On that note, it's the "let's ignore" atitude that is the cancer in the game atm. If you ignore, it's cause you stopped caring. If you stopped caring, why bother eh? The game is so bad that it made you stop caring, and you don't find that odd. It's amazing.
Not just the AP btw, though it is one of the two worse offenders. The other one is titanforging and to a smaller scale gem slots being randomized. In the latest patch they added benthic gear farming and roulette rolling. It is sooo much fun! You didn't care? Yes, there it is again. Yes, i stopped caring too, as everyone else stoped caring and left around me until finally it was my turn. I don't hate WoW. I like the zones, the lore and the story even if a bit basic. But it is not a game i can play regularly. It makes a mockery of my time.

But hey, you are right. This is going nowhere with someone who hasn't bothered to gain perspective cause he is so close to the matter of study.
Go on, you and your ever decreasing mob. Godspeed!

But, i will still hope they fix the game next xpac. Not that you will be able to tell! lol!

- - - Updated - - -

@Swnem

I love those OST's, but for me, nothing beats these 3.

(I love a LOT of themes from Warcraft, so these 3 are basically nothing more than a taste in terms of my favorites)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhqQoCmiaDw&t=49s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdM3DnDKJXc&t=77s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1JNJRPyAMs

That first one sounds like a remix of the Grizzly hills theme? Yeah that's a good one.
Second one from Kil'jaeden can't say i like very much, but i can see why you'd like it if you raided sunwell plateau when it was current. It was an awesome raid.
Third one was a long version of the inn music eh? It's a cool one too. Though we hardly ever listen to it.

But yeah, subjective. I do prefer the FF ones a lot more.

[shade3891]

When people say they have nothing to do in BFA are they looking for more solo content?

[Talrath]

Game on! oke, in which category?

[Wangming]

@Swnem

I love those OST's, but for me, nothing beats these 3.

(I love a LOT of themes from Warcraft, so these 3 are basically nothing more than a taste in terms of my favorites)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jhqQoCmiaDw&t=49s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zdM3DnDKJXc&t=77s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C1JNJRPyAMs

This is the part which is hardest to argue. When you prefer certain kinds of songs, it is hard to top those. To me it comes down to small details like:

1. The level of attention

Here, one of the central themes of Stormblood is sung. The anthem of Ala Mhigo. Thing is, it is kinda off. Why? Cause it is sung by a bunch of tired soldiers who just finished a siege. Soken, the composer and sound director, recorded the lyrics with the localization theme to emphasize that these are tired amatures and of course it won't sound as epic.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kw7Umqm1cis

2. The diversity

Songs like this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FV_IP4mNJCI

Or this:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xdV_bzJgRxE

Or this remix of Matoya's cave from Final Fantasy i
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=orvKqkgWZOc

Or this when you fight the fairy queen:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=saYCZ9jzLEA

Are perfectly comfortable next to each other.

3. The quantity

Granted, quantity alone is not enough if it is not good enough. But we have overworld themes for day and night. Combat themes, mount themes and central character themes. We can enjoy more quality music cause there is a lot more of it.

4. The use of music for dramatic effect.

The songs aren't just there to drown out combat effects. It is used to enhance the story. Imagine a cutscene where people talk to someone obscured to the viewer. You don't know who the mysterious figure is. Then you hear this:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jd1r3n4HKOo

The main theme of the Ascians. A more awesome version of the Twilight Hammer. You instantly realize that shit just got super bad.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=piJbpEcpmy4

Or you can hear this song and know that you are going to witness a triumphant moment for the heroes.

Now imagine hearing these songs in the same cutscene in reverse order. You will crap your pants even before anything bad happens. That is the power of a good soundtrack used well.

- - - Updated - - -

Wait BfA is bad???

Isn't it? I'm pretty sure it is by most metrics. And professional critics agree with me.

[Hey There Guys its Metro]

Those making their own lists about good and bad are missing the point.
We are talking about major updates to the game, and its obvious there is a pattern, whether you like it or not.

Compare the things MoP added to WoD.
Compare the things Legion added to BFA.

Its obvious, for some reason, it takes them years to implement big changes, but they eventually get there.
Expect something like this to happen again here.

But there is the real possibility this expansion will not be great out of the box just thanks to Classic drawing attention away.
Hopefully it will be great BECAUSE Classic.
I'm excited to see what they will learn from it.

[Strikesuit]

Oh I am already fucking hyped friend (especailly for Blizzcon this year overall. I genuinely believe it's going to be one of, if not the best of all Blizzcons). One thing though:

I really don't get why people disliked Cata, and BFA to some extent. I found Cataclysm's first tier (11), to be one of my most favorites, both dungeons and raids were spectacular. Cataclysm dungeons to me were very memorable. I loved them more before they got nerfed a couple of months in, but still loved them non the less. As for zones, I found Uldum particularly awesome, and liked the others too.

My friends list peaked in Wrath. The dungeons were a little overtuned for casuals when Cata launches and a lot of my friends left. The community suffered and it showed in the loss of subs. In Wrath, casuals could progress. That stopped in Cata.

The game was fun in Cata, but the timing and implementation were terrible on the heels of Wrath.

[Talrath]

DONT CLICK ON THEM IF YOU DONT WANT SPOILER!!! I took the music of encounters where you could see a bit of spoiler aswel.

For raids i would say:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3z8VcPLgbM
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nBT6...rjinI&index=13
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3cKy...MrjinI&index=7
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bDEP...rjinI&index=15
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Eutu8EXcmk0

and the below one is GOD mode music.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6gLEzpWyq6U

- - - Updated - - -

for zones i would say:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ascfjJXDWjo
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mE4Y...CSyIck&index=6

and many many more. you should check them out because they have music taste basically for everyone.

[xenogear3]

Cata - bad
MoP - good (it was!!)
WoD - bad
Legion - good
BFA - bad
Classic - Excellent !
Next - bad, and the last expansion because Blizzard made too much money from Classic. No need new content.

[Somewhatconcerned]

Legion was far from good. But enjoy your titanforge and AP hamster wheels.

It's an MMO, of course there will be hamster wheels.

[Kyphael]

Proof? I do have. Go see how many guilds have cleared each tier since Tomb of Sargeras in wow. I have seen people leave and guilds crumble. But hey, you got this general mob opinion you brewed in the forums. That's great proof right there.
Blizz stoped giving us sub numbers. Funny that ain't it? How can you even claim there was a subscribers hold in Legion is beyond me.

Also, you have not been paying atention. The game was not a NEVERENDING hamster wheel before. You did get to the end of a patch when you killed the boss and got your BiS gear for whatever difficulty you prefered. It was finite. The wheel would return, but it wasn't constantly spinning.
On that note, it's the "let's ignore" atitude that is the cancer in the game atm. If you ignore, it's cause you stopped caring. If you stopped caring, why bother eh? The game is so bad that it made you stop caring, and you don't find that odd. It's amazing.
Not just the AP btw, though it is one of the two worse offenders. The other one is titanforging and to a smaller scale gem slots being randomized. In the latest patch they added benthic gear farming and roulette rolling. It is sooo much fun! You didn't care? Yes, there it is again. Yes, i stopped caring too, as everyone else stoped caring and left around me until finally it was my turn. I don't hate WoW. I like the zones, the lore and the story even if a bit basic. But it is not a game i can play regularly. It makes a mockery of my time.

But hey, you are right. This is going nowhere with someone who hasn't bothered to gain perspective cause he is so close to the matter of study.
Go on, you and your ever decreasing mob. Godspeed!

But, i will still hope they fix the game next xpac. Not that you will be able to tell! lol!

You keep mentioning crumbling guilds and people leaving and as if that somehow determines how many players are actively clering Mythic difficulties. Is it less than how many guilds cleared say, Heroic raids in Wrath when the game was at its peak? Maybe. But the raiding population of the game has always been the minority, which again, includes you. Casual players clear LFR and are happy to do so, that's their end game. You're not the first prophet to predict WoW's demise in the last decade, and you're not the last. You keep calling it mob mentality because you have no other defense and data yourself to prove your point that more people played and enjoyed WoD over Legion, which they didn't.

Obviously you take WoW too seriously. If I get bored or no longer find it enjoyable, I quit, I wouldn't hang around the forums saying how much it sucks, and how good it used to be and how it's going to die. What's the point? Especially with no data to back up ANY of your arguments other than "well... I've seen lots of guilds leave and crumble in the realm I play! AP sucks!!!" But if trolling MMO forums is a more productive use of your time than the terribly evil Azerite hamster wheel you keep touting, by all means. Your argument just has no credibility. We're posting in circles and all you have to go by is your own personal hearsay and "expertise" versus popular opinion which you don't think matters because only your opinion matters. It's not a geocentric universe. If a vast majority enjoyed Legion more than WoD, then it doesn't make you wrong that you're in the minority that liked WoD more, it's your own personal taste, but it doesn't make everyone else wrong, either.

[Shaqthefat]

5.4 Was bad cause it destroyed the Vale even for those who didn't open it yet. Way to break immersion, idiots.

If someone didn't see vale by the time 5.4 came out that is 100% on them

[Somewhatconcerned]

When people say they have nothing to do in BFA are they looking for more solo content?

This is a perfect example of this schizophrenic community.

"We want more solo content. "

"No we want a sense of community brought back."

"We don't want to grind for stuff."

"Classic will be awesome because end game is all about grinding for rep, mats, etc"

Multiple other examples exist.

[zmp]

BFA - bad

"Patch 8.3 will fix it, or patch 8.4, or patch 9.0" - Retail warriors

[Jester Joe]

Not really, there is a huge difference between Legion and BfA. You really don't need to farm AP at all if having 62 level neck (im 2 levels behind you) gives you 90%+ performance on mythic raids. Sure I could get 65 to get another trait then stop caring about AP totally. Thing you couldn't do in legion as raider.

Casuals? Can completely forget it exists. Might as well untrack all WQ with azerite as reward, skip islands and just do M+ for chest.

You realize you're the only one using Legion as a comparison point to try to justify BfA when I'm saying both are not ideal, right?
Obviously BfA improved a bit upon it, but it is still not debatable that you have to put extra effort in to get your neck up to a reasonable level.

And even then, you're completely ignoring how gimped you could be at the start if you got a piece of mythic azerite gear and couldn't use all the traits on it because your heart level was lower, so you were stuck with the heroic piece until you grinded out the HoA levels.

And no one said anything about casual players, I said playing casually even for a bit. As in...not clearing the WQs every day for azerite.

[Notdev]

My friends list peaked in Wrath. The dungeons were a little overtuned for casuals when Cata launches and a lot of my friends left. The community suffered and it showed in the loss of subs. In Wrath, casuals could progress. That stopped in Cata.

The game was fun in Cata, but the timing and implementation were terrible on the heels of Wrath.

Cata also virtually got rid of the casual raiding scene (former 10 man normal in WoTLK) when they combined 10/25 mans in loot, difficulty, and lockouts.
This also destroyed pugging on my former server because people could no longer run 10 or 25 mans with their guilds, then pug the other, which really absolutely ravaged the community.

They attempted a bandaid fix with LFR in the final tier, which introduced a ton of new problems. Having current flex normal gives casual players a place to raid again, and IMO makes LFR obsolete, but LFR seems to be too deep rooted in the game to just remove.

T11 was nice, but a lot of logistics changes they made in Cata ravaged communities and is probably why people think Cata was bad.

[Watchers]

Legion was the absolute best, they put everything in the furnace, demon hunters and the legendary weapons and armors. I doubt it will be a better expansion, maybe necromancers or a wotlk remake