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  1. #21
    Mechagnome Kemsa's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Then why don't they put up a proper home instead of living in mud or dirt? A Tent is not a home. It's a temporary shelter at best.
    Are we talking about OLD ORGRIMMAR? OR NEW ORGRIMMAR?

    Because New Orgrimmar, its literally Black Rock Foundry. For the Taurens even todays Thunder Totem its literally just Tents, because is that the way they live, in relationship with nature. The same with Trolls and so on.
    You must understand that the Alliance Seeking of technology its all thanks of the Gnomes and the Dwarfs and how humans have the desire of "expansionism" wich its clearly induced because they are descendant of the Titanforging (stone man, literally). They lived in Technology, they know about it, thats why they seek it.
    Orcs, Trolls, Taurens are not Titanforging races and are more entitled to nature.

  2. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    No. That would mean that the Alliance is the underdog. And it's not. They were winning the war in EVERY FRONT (this is stated by Blightcaller himself) and could have won the war in a matter of weeks if it hadn't been for the Azshara deus ex machina. In the War of Thorns they were handicapped so that they wouldn't instantly win the war (Alleria, the Vindicaar, and the Aurobos did nothing). In Lordaeron they were again handicapped by forgetting any form of protection against the blight when invading the literal land of the blight..
    Pointing out intent to kill doesn't imply anything beyond an existence of intent to kill... it has nothing to do with status as underdog or not....


    The status of the war really has the horde more so just trying to maintain their positions while the alliance has far more 'vengeance' and destruction in mind.

    Like how the alliance campaign is setting up to invade and damage Zandalar directly while the horde one is more focused on side plots and setting up OTHER issues.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Pointing out intent to kill doesn't imply anything beyond an existence of intent to kill... it has nothing to do with status as underdog or not....


    The status of the war really has the horde more so just trying to maintain their positions while the alliance has far more 'vengeance' and destruction in mind.

    Like how the alliance campaign is setting up to invade and damage Zandalar directly while the horde one is more focused on side plots and setting up OTHER issues.
    Horde war campaign is attacking Kul Tiras with full on fleets, Alliance were mainly covert ops missions.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Horde war campaign is attacking Kul Tiras with full on fleets, Alliance were mainly covert ops missions.
    The horde campaign was setting up their posts and dealing with local issues on site.

    Followed by getting Derrick's corpse, or really any kul tiran VIP

    culminating in an eventual strike.

    The difference is that alliance was already taking action in Zandalar before any horde controlled force was sent in.

  5. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Before the Horde was a bunch of outcasts living in the world that is intent on killing them while the Alliance consisted of entire nations with dozens of cities and large outposts. Now:

    Orcs- Ogrimmar
    Forsaken- Refugees
    Tauren- Thunder Bluff
    Trolls- Echo Isles
    Blood elves- Silvermoon
    Goblins- Bligewater Harbor
    Nightborne- Suramar
    Zandalari- Zandalar
    High mountain- Thunder Totem


    Humans- Stormwind
    Night elves- Refugees
    Gnomes- Refugees
    Worgen- Refugees
    Void elves- Refugees (I wouldn't call a void infested rock with no settlements as a home)
    Draenei- Exodar
    Dark Irons- Shadowforge
    Kul Tiran- Boralus
    Dwarves- Ironforge

    Horde 1/9 refugees
    Alliance 4/9 refugees

    Besides the capitals, the amount of outposts and smaller towns that the Alliance lost is absurd while Horde lost Taurajo, Brill and umm...

    Almost half of the Alliance races are refugees, 3 of them at the hands of the present Horde. Now the Alliance is in the world that is intent on killing them.
    How are Gnomes refugees when they reconquered a part of Gnomereggan at the end of WotLK? How are Night Elves refugees just because they lost Teldrassil? Teldrassil is merely 12 years old monument to Fandral's arrogance, not some ancestral homeland of the race. How are Void Elves refugees if you don't count Draenei or Goblins as refugees?


    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    Because orcs only give a damn about killing things, not learning to farm, or proper architecture, or pretty much anything that would improve their lot so they wouldn't need to raid and kill. From what I can tell, they view such as sissy.

    Now, the real reason is because Blizzard doesn't give a damn and doesn't think of things like that.
    Weirdly enough one of the many, many Alliance complaining points on this forum is that Orcs architecture became better than Alliance's since Cata.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    More important than the 1 by 1 count of who lost what is the general feeling that was created by these changes. And that feeling is much worse.
    Last time I checked feelings are subjective.


    Quote Originally Posted by Nathasil View Post
    Obviously Blizzard does not want Horde players to ever feel defeated and humiliated...while those are exactly the feelings they enjoy putting on Alliance players. And then they have the balls to make some mocking jokes on stage at Blizzcon. They really have nobody to blame but themselves that the current faction ratio at lvl120 is as bad as it is. And it will get worse.
    Right. The same Blizzard that wants to neuter the Horde and force - for the second time by now - them to betray their faction in favor of the traitors that desire nothing more than to lick Alliance's boots obviously doesn't want Horde players to ever feel humiliated. That's why the entire spiel of BfA is how the idiotic Horde didn't learn the lesson of subservience to the Alliance back in MoP.
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    How are Gnomes refugees when they reconquered a part of Gnomereggan at the end of WotLK? How are Night Elves refugees just because they lost Teldrassil? Teldrassil is merely 12 years old monument to Fandral's arrogance, not some ancestral homeland of the race. How are Void Elves refugees if you don't count Draenei or Goblins as refugees?
    As I understand they didn't fully reclaim Gnomeregan, and were still dealing the mess. It's just that the main antagonist hanging out in there was dealt with.

    and Draenei technically still have their lovely crashed ship that is effectively a city in and of itself.

  7. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Feanoro View Post
    OK, where are their farms? After all, we hear endless bleating they need to trade or raid for resources because they don't know how. More accurately, Blizz finds such world-building boring now, no "duuuuuuude cooooooool" moments to be had on a farm after all.
    And, pray tell, when has Horde's need for trading ever mentioned farm produce? Because the trading issue around WotLK's and Cata's time was about them needing lumber.


    Quote Originally Posted by Darth-Piekus View Post
    That shows me that they just crave to kill and take rather than work for it.
    And this comment shows to everyone else that you don't know that most major Orcish population centers are located in deserts that don't exactly result in stellar agriculture. Either that or it's what deserts are that's the issue.


    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    No. That would mean that the Alliance is the underdog. And it's not. They were winning the war in EVERY FRONT (this is stated by Blightcaller himself) and could have won the war in a matter of weeks if it hadn't been for the Azshara deus ex machina. In the War of Thorns they were handicapped so that they wouldn't instantly win the war (Alleria, the Vindicaar, and the Aurobos did nothing). In Lordaeron they were again handicapped by forgetting any form of protection against the blight when invading the literal land of the blight.
    Handicapped by what? Plot armor denser than a neutron star? Because by the balance of powers outlined in A Good War the Alliance shouldn't even be able to land on Tirisfal's shore. And there is no protection against the Blight other than small Mage shields (which was only ever used by Jaina who's not an average Mage to begin with) and Dreadlord magic.


    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    As I understand they didn't fully reclaim Gnomeregan, and were still dealing the mess. It's just that the main antagonist hanging out in there was dealt with.

    and Draenei technically still have their lovely crashed ship that is effectively a city in and of itself.
    Hence "part of". And I know the Draenei have their ship. But how are Void Elves refugees while having their own dimensional pocket but Draenei are not listed as one when they live on a ship that they literally used to flee their actual (most recent) home?
    Quote Originally Posted by Kangodo View Post
    Does the CIA pay you for your bullshit or are you just bootlicking in your free time?
    Quote Originally Posted by Mirishka View Post
    I'm quite tired of people who dislike something/disagree with something while attacking/insulting anyone that disagrees. Its as if at some point, people forgot how opinions work.

  8. #28
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Then why don't they put up a proper home instead of living in mud or dirt? A Tent is not a home. It's a temporary shelter at best.
    They aren't Human? Maybe they're content with how they live?

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    The horde campaign was setting up their posts and dealing with local issues on site.

    Followed by getting Derrick's corpse, or really any kul tiran VIP

    culminating in an eventual strike.

    The difference is that alliance was already taking action in Zandalar before any horde controlled force was sent in.
    The Stormsong war campaign starts with Rexxar leading a full fleet and establishes a large outpost. Then when the Forsaken fleet tried invading Boralus before Jaina teleported bombs on the ships.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    Handicapped by what? Plot armor denser than a neutron star? Because by the balance of powers outlined in A Good War the Alliance shouldn't even be able to land on Tirisfal's shore. And there is no protection against the Blight other than small Mage shields (which was only ever used by Jaina who's not an average Mage to begin with) and Dreadlord magic.
    Thrall used the wind to clear away the blight.

    Hence "part of". And I know the Draenei have their ship. But how are Void Elves refugees while having their own dimensional pocket but Draenei are not listed as one when they live on a ship that they literally used to flee their actual (most recent) home?
    Exodar is located in a region that also has settlements, it has shops and common dwellings for civilians, it's far more of a city than a barren rock.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Mehrunes View Post
    How are Night Elves refugees just because they lost Teldrassil? Teldrassil is merely 12 years old monument to Fandral's arrogance, not some ancestral homeland of the race. How are Void Elves refugees if you don't count Draenei or Goblins as refugees?
    Most of the NE population settled at Teldrassil, it also wasn't just the tree, there were numerous towns in the zone, didn't you read the Elegy?

  10. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    For the same reason the NEs rely on outdated technology and live in trees. For Tauren it's cultural choice based off of their shamanistic and hunter-gather traits. For Trolls, a lot of them have been ravaged by each other, elves, humans, and abandoned by the Zandalari's riches. If given the chance to build a stable home, they build quite opulent cities. Most troll tribes should be known for their carving and stone-relief building techniques, rather than the minority reliant on jungle vines and driftwood. Orc homes have evolved due to Garrosh's standards.

    The mudhut joke has been false since Cataclysm revamped these areas. The Horde's living conditions are about equal to the Alliance's. This gets back to the OP's interesting point -- while the Horde has been built up, Alliance races (and future races) have been gradually torn down.
    The only thing they did to Orgrimmar is replace wood with Steel, which makes for even worse living conditions. It still is in no way equal a city to Stormwind or Ironforge. Not by a along shot.

    And none of the Horde Races have been built up. Not one of them. The majority of Trolls still doesn't have a proper place to call home. They have also lost the ability to build cities like the Troll empires of old. All the trolls do is cling to glory long past. The Horde as a whole still lacks a single proper stronghold on the entirety of Azeroth. All the 'improvements' that Garrosh made still left Orgrimmar wide open to an attack, because he lacked the forsight to secure a harbour. This remains unchanged until today.

    The mudhut joke was reverted in Cata? Really? There's still plenty of dust and dirt in Orgrimmar. It still lacks basic sanitation. Thunder Bluff is a collection of assorted tents, not a city.

    Night Elves remain a strong nation with the capability to not only maintain, but also build advanced wood and stone structures. They may have lost their capital of 15 years. So? They still have several major settlements. On the other hand, if Orgrimmar were razed, what exactly would the orcs have left?


    Quote Originally Posted by Sorotia View Post
    They aren't Human? Maybe they're content with how they live?
    They can choose to live however they want. They are still primitives leagues away from most of the Alliance Races in terms of living standards.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    The Stormsong war campaign starts with Rexxar leading a full fleet and establishes a large outpost.
    In the back side of nowhere out in the middle of nothing.
    Quote Originally Posted by ausoin View Post
    Then when the Forsaken fleet tried invading Boralus before Jaina teleported bombs on the ships.
    When was this?

    edit:

    is this sort of like the san'layn that is never referenced for horde?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    When was this?

    edit:

    is this sort of like the san'layn that is never referenced for horde?
    https://www.wowhead.com/alliance-war...e-horde-attack

    Quote Originally Posted by WoWhead
    The players then fight the Horde with their very own Azerite weaponry, stealing bombs in Stopping the Sappers and throwing those at the Horde attack boats in Express Delivery. After the Horde attack is stopped, you're flown back to Boralus in War Marches On.
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  13. #33
    Ah.. after Jaina was brought back from and Made Lord Admiral because Katherine felt sad... and the point I just stopped caring about the different storylines.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by mickybrighteyes View Post
    Ah.. after Jaina was brought back from and Made Lord Admiral because Katherine felt sad... and the point I just stopped caring about the different storylines.
    Yep, "You betrayed your own father and people for alien monsters who butchered everyone and may do it again, but you feel sad, so it's all good!"
    Quote Originally Posted by Alex86el View Post
    "Orc want, orc take." and "Orc dissagrees, orc kill you to win argument."
    Quote Originally Posted by Toho View Post
    The Horde is basically the guy that gets mad that the guy that they just beat the crap out of had the audacity to bleed on them.
    Why no, people don't just like Sylvie for T&A: https://www.mmo-champion.com/threads...ery-Cinematic/

  15. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    Then why don't they put up a proper home instead of living in mud or dirt? A Tent is not a home. It's a temporary shelter at best.
    We have thousand year old civilizations that literally dug their homes out in mountains. Others live in dirt/mud houses.

    You clearly do not understand what you're trying to argue.

    Just because they don't adhere to the same architecture, doesn't make them any less advanced or settled. It's not as if we're comparing New Yorkers to African tribesmen here. They're fictional races in a game, the architectural styles are a fashion choice. In terms of access to tech etc, they have the same means.
    Last edited by Queen of Hamsters; 2019-09-01 at 08:42 PM.

  16. #36
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    -snip-
    Well you're free to have your opinion, but I would have to sorely disagree. You haven't given an example of current primitive civilization, besides noting that Orgimmar is in a dessert and that the races build outside of European styles (which is also true for several Alliance races). Your hyperbolic observations don't add up with what is seen in game or described in writing. That's fine, but I'm not interested in that sort of discussion.

    Queen of Hamsters sums it up quite well. The races are roughly equivalent in terms of civilized ability, but are different in cultural preference, expectations, and resources. Boralus is far dirtier than Stormwind ever was, but that doesn't make it less civilized. It's different, not 'primitive'. An example of primitive society would be the clans established by Furbolgs and Murlocs. They are unable to achieve much due to their limited intellect and unable to produce better despite an abundance of materials. It's not a choice for them, it's all they're capable of. They are still developed enough to create villages and social hierarchies, but not to advance in any real significance.
    Last edited by Rozz; 2019-09-01 at 10:23 PM.
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  17. #37
    The Unstoppable Force Ielenia's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tenebra View Post
    A void-infested rock that holds a lot of knowledge that could advance the void elves' research, and at the same time is basically beyond anyone's reach, since to go there you need to know its location and how to access it (knowledge that is known only to the void elves themselves, who continued the work started by Drathir). It is a much-needed and very secure refuge.
    I wouldn't call it "very secure refuge", or even "secure" at all. Remember that there are areas of Telogrus Rift that are barred from being accessed for "being too dangerous". On top of that, those rocks look really barren, so they cannot grow food, and is being isolated AND open, meaning if the void attacks, there are no defenses.
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  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Rozz View Post
    Considering that's literally not true, I'm not sure what observations you're basing any comparisons off of.



    This is also untrue and I'm not sure where it was ever said the troll tribes lost the knowledge to build their own architecture. Orgimmar also has a harbor, even if minor. The Horde also does have multiple strongholds, so I'm not sure what you mean by this. Do you mean an undamaged capital? They have several of those.


    And there's mold and wet brick in Boralus. They have a city in a dessert, did you expect grass? Just because the substrate is different, doesn't suddenly make their massive strongholds huts. And Thunderbluff is also not that. They're structured housing that have leather roofing, but they're not tents. They're permanent structures that are clearly durable enough to withstand weather and the winds of high plateaus.



    So wood and stone structures held together by tree roots and magic are 'civilized', but iron and leather are not? The point was one of equivalence. The NEs have a style they choose to stick with due to preference. This is the case with the troll races and tauren. Even more so with orcs, who know how to work metal but still chose an aggressive front.

    And if Orgimmar was raised, it'd likely still stand since it's mostly metal. The wooden beams may collapse, but the stone and iron should hold well. I mean the city was raided and held up spectacularly, so you don't need to make up an example. Most capitals can't say the same.



    Well you're free to have your opinion, but I would have to sorely disagree. You haven't given an example of current primitive civilization, besides noting that Orgimmar is in a dessert and the races build outside of European styles which is also true for several Alliance races.
    It literally is. Using steel, and metal in general, for housing is incredibly stupid, since it offers no insulation what to speak off. In the almost desert of Durotan, buildings with metal roofs would cook you alive, and you'd freeze during the night. And again, all Horde cities lack any sanitation to speak off.

    I'd say the fact that all troll nations live in ruins proves that very well. They fashion their clothes from rags and their weapons from bone and wood. Any notion of greatness that is left with the Troll is literally millennia old.
    The Zandalari are the only ones who maintain a certain level of civilization, and they have fallen behind Dwarves, Elves, Humans and Gnomes. Considerably.

    What I mean with a defendable Stronghold is a capital city that actually can be defended. A city that would withstand a siege for more than a day. A city with the capability to withstand a siege whatsoever. Thunder Bluff - no defenses. Bilgewater Harbour - no defenses. Echo Isles - no defenses.

    Orgrimmar is the closest to this the Horde has, but the city lacks any means of supply the moment you seal off the three entries. Lordaeron had the same problem. Incredibly poorly planned city.

    Opposed to this, you have Ironforge and Stormwind, both massively fortified, with access to an actual airfield and a fortified harbour. Both cities can support each other through the Deeprun Tram. Ironfoge is only accesible through narrow, fortified tunnels.

    Orgrimmar doesn't have streets, it has metal plates thrown to the ground where people walk the most. That's what you'd do in a military encampment or a trench. Not in your capital city. Especially with plenty of Stone at your disposal.

    And yes, wood and stone structures shaped with the help of magic are different. The use of magic in architecture negates the need for technological advancement to a point. You don't need an elevator if you can travel by magically glowing root. If you don't have that particular skill, and Draenai aside, no other civilization combines architecture and magic, you go for the best that you have available. Which, in a pseudo-medieval setting, would be Stone, not leather, not metal. If goblins go ahead and invent concrete, use that instead. It's kind of weird that noone has done so, if you think about it.

    Orgrimmar was raided, yes. Not razed. The aim was to kill Garrosh, not to destroy the city. Both attacking factions went out of their way to keep the damage as minimal as possible. The only capital so far to be razed is Silvermoon, and that one is still... well... in ruins.

    So the point stands. The Horde, for the most part, are primitives. Which is fine. Nothing wrong with it. But to say the Horde was built up is simply wrong. Same goes for the Alliance being torn down. The Alliance is still, by far, the most advanced and most refined of the two factions by every measure. Architecture, agriculture, sanitation, infrastructure, general welfare of its citizens, technology. The Horde is behind in all those regards.

  19. #39
    Moderator Rozz's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    -snip-
    Yeah you can refer to my edited comment above for this. I changed it since I felt my original post was long winded and unnecessary, so I apologize for any confusion. Your point still stands for you, but not to what I've seen and what has occurred in lore. So you can feel free to call the Horde primitives and leagues behind the Alliance all you want. They aren't depicted that way outside of verbal insults between factions, but if you want to believe in those that's up to you.
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  20. #40
    Over 9000! Kithelle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Skulltaker View Post
    The only thing they did to Orgrimmar is replace wood with Steel, which makes for even worse living conditions. It still is in no way equal a city to Stormwind or Ironforge. Not by a along shot.

    And none of the Horde Races have been built up. Not one of them. The majority of Trolls still doesn't have a proper place to call home. They have also lost the ability to build cities like the Troll empires of old. All the trolls do is cling to glory long past. The Horde as a whole still lacks a single proper stronghold on the entirety of Azeroth. All the 'improvements' that Garrosh made still left Orgrimmar wide open to an attack, because he lacked the forsight to secure a harbour. This remains unchanged until today.

    The mudhut joke was reverted in Cata? Really? There's still plenty of dust and dirt in Orgrimmar. It still lacks basic sanitation. Thunder Bluff is a collection of assorted tents, not a city.

    Night Elves remain a strong nation with the capability to not only maintain, but also build advanced wood and stone structures. They may have lost their capital of 15 years. So? They still have several major settlements. On the other hand, if Orgrimmar were razed, what exactly would the orcs have left?




    They can choose to live however they want. They are still primitives leagues away from most of the Alliance Races in terms of living standards.
    There are people who LOVE to camp and be out doors despite having a apartment/house...just because someone can live a certain way doesn't mean they have to or want to.

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