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  1. #601
    People who understand how the game works knew it was possible.
    People who didn't understand how the game works did not think it was possible.
    This is how life works.

  2. #602
    Those are some hardcore peeps playing

  3. #603
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyltin-Laav View Post
    I mean, every raid encounter vanilla or BfA is just about information (boss mods + strats known), gear and execution.

    Get to KJ mythic in 5 more years with a guild that killed him on private servers for months to train for him and with addons that just auto dodge every AOE skill and use the pre Legion patch (classes a ton stronger) and see what happens. And we also have to keep in mind that Ragna was nerfed till 1.12 and that back then the fire resistance buff was not always used.

    In the end old content will always be decently easy for people like that who trained for it for months and use modern tools and nerfed bosses with buffed classes and every bonus possible. If you prepare like that for something known it will never be hard in WOW, regardless what boss you kill.

    It is a bit like killing Deathwing with the -30% power buff. Every decent raid guild with months of experience on him would kill him easily.
    You just made yourself a laughing stock of this thread, good job my dude.

    This kid is defending classic raiding, what is going on I can't even "even".

    Last edited by mauserr; 2019-09-02 at 08:04 PM.

  4. #604
    Quote Originally Posted by Kaleredar View Post
    I disagreed with your point that BC raids required some inordinate test of skill.

    You have yet to rebuke that.
    There's nothing to rebuke. You basically said "No, you're wrong", and didn't really rebuke my point, and only applied your only arbitrary criteria.

    Since I don't really give a fuck anyway, like I said, you win. What's wrong?
    "Auto-correct is my worst enema."

  5. #605
    well. the 10man dungeonfarm made the leveling faster than expected but even without that a rag kill first week woudlve been more than possible. Only it likely would have occured a day later.
    None of us really changes over time. We only become more fully what we are.

  6. #606
    Quote Originally Posted by Hinastorm View Post
    The top speed leveler in the world takes roughly 120 hours, on a hunter, to do 1-60. And that is with little to no competition.

    Factoring in competition, slower classes, probably other factors im not thinking of, i'd guess 200 hours would be more realistic on average. (Feel free to disagree, this is just a rough guess).

    With that in mind, say it launches on 12 am monday, you'd have to play 33 hours a day, for 6 days, to then go into MC on sunday. And this would be with just leveling gear of course, although im sure thats probably not an issue for the top guilds.

    Even GENEROUSLY changing some of my guess numbers, a week one rag kill just doesn't add up. What am I missing?

    As a side note, using the 200 hour estimate, it would take playing 5 hours a day for 40 days to do 1-60. Then gearing time. Shouldn't most guilds allow at least 6 weeks before raids?
    They removed everything it made getting there fun. Resist gear, aqualords, and such.

  7. #607
    Quote Originally Posted by Notdev View Post
    Man I really doubt that. Are we really supposed to pretend that 15 years of information, private severs, and modern addons, computers, players, etc mean nothing? People have been posting about raid difficulty in vanilla being all artificial and not tied to skill or the encounters for a literal decade.

    One of the main reasons people criticized classic servers is that the endgame won't be a huge challenge, just a time commitment. So you have a huge grind to 60 only to have no true challenging content.

    Are people still going to come out with excuses when certain guilds one shot c'thun, KT, twin emps, Nef, etc?

    Anyway, I'm still enjoying classic for the leveling experience, and this doesn't effect me at all.
    it doesnt mean nothing. being in the 40s after 3 days on patch 1.1 would be insanely fast. remember on launch it took most people ~3 months to level

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by dess View Post
    They removed everything it made getting there fun. Resist gear, aqualords, and such.
    they also exploited the raid xp bug and layering like crazy to field a raid that fast.

  8. #608
    Quote Originally Posted by awadh View Post
    You just made yourself a laughing stock of this thread, good job my dude.

    This kid is defending classic raiding, what is going on I can't even "even".

    And there you are wrong. I am not defending classic raiding. MC was piss easy and BWL wasn't hard either. AQ was the first raid that required some skill.

    But just because it was like that and the game was different back then doesn't make the players that played back then worse. that they required more time had different reasons.

    I find it ok that people call Classic raiding easy. Vanilla raiding MC and BWL was easy and Classic is even easier. but people thinking like "Oh, I am a better player because I play retail" is something I hate. People that think they are better because they play a different game at a different time when in reality the overall player base isn't better skill wise, we just know more.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Inuyaki View Post
    I disagree with a lot of your post, but especially with this one.
    I raided until 4HM back then, when we disbanded the guild, because we didn't wanna go through the tank equipping. That was months before TBC, so we would have had enough time.
    I raided Sunwell.

    And I can tell you, that players were just bad in Vanilla. Even in the beginning of TBC. TBC was when most old players grew a lot, and the difference in skill for many players between Kara and Archi/Illidan already and then later KJ was massive. Because Sunwell was the first raid that was legit hard. (Not talking about overtuned stuff [CThun, Kael] or stupid mechanics [4HM tank requirement, Vashj mc on multiple tanks, Archi fear in the beginning])

    Edit
    Not saying that there weren't already good players before, but they were rare
    the largest part of "growth" players went through in TBC was the theory crafting and having sites to read everything you needed to know. It was not that players actually improved as players, but that the intel that lacked before was easily accessable and getting the right gear was just a matter of will and time. This improved players but not their own skill.

    It is a bit like the earth being flat or round. Back when there was no method for most people to figure it out calling the earth flat was not stupid and the guys weren't less skilled than we are now. We just have more knowledge and tools to worth with right now and if you call the earth flat now you would be actually stupid.

    Access to knowledge and tools changes a lot but this doesn't mean humanity (or in this case the playerbase) became better in terms of their own skill, they improved because knowledge was gathered and became more accessable and tools improved (mods became a ton better).

    The older players (not all but the good ones) still had that potential before TBC was released, there weren't just as many and as comfortable ways for them to reach it.

  9. #609
    Quote Originally Posted by Xyltin-Laav View Post
    The older players (not all but the good ones) still had that potential before TBC was released, there weren't just as many and as comfortable ways for them to reach it.
    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, cause if you watch some world first from vanilla and classic, they were fucking awful, but still i can't really tell if those same terrible players would actually adapt to retail difficulty, some probably will, some probably wont, would be a nice experiment so we are able to draw the line.

  10. #610
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    I'll give you the benefit of the doubt, cause if you watch some world first from vanilla and classic, they were fucking awful, but still i can't really tell if those same terrible players would actually adapt to retail difficulty, some probably will, some probably wont, would be a nice experiment so we are able to draw the line.
    We recruited an old Nihilum player from their vanilla/TBC days for Highmaul progress and he was so horrible

  11. #611
    Quote Originally Posted by shanattah View Post
    We recruited an old Nihilum player from their vanilla/TBC days for Highmaul progress and he was so horrible
    And what does that proof? It is one player that maybe was gone for a long time. Or he was one of the bad one that got carried by the better ones. Maybe he was good back then but couldn't adept. Many reasons why he was horrible and none has to do with players in vanilla being worse.

  12. #612
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xyltin-Laav View Post
    And what does that proof? It is one player that maybe was gone for a long time. Or he was one of the bad one that got carried by the better ones. Maybe he was good back then but couldn't adept. Many reasons why he was horrible and none has to do with players in vanilla being worse.
    It proves you can be a bad player but be in a top guild, still true today. I remember the first time I wanted to play hardcore for a bit, so I joined a top guild in TBC, I was shocked at how many bad players there were causing stupid wipes on progress. I returned to my vanilla guild after a bit because they were more fun, raided less and did clear the content, just slower.

    I did the exact same in WotLK as well lol, oh and MoP.

    If you have time and dedication, it's pretty easy to get in a top guild.

  13. #613
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    It proves you can be a bad player but be in a top guild, still true today. I remember the first time I wanted to play hardcore for a bit, so I joined a top guild in TBC, I was shocked at how many bad players there were causing stupid wipes on progress.

    If you have time and dedication, it's pretty easy to get in a top guild.
    Not anymore, and same time define top.

    Generally even up to top 250, stupid shit dont get tolerated for long anymore, like dying to easy-mode ground effect ability more than once.

    Especially in TBC, with the attunements and having to recarry people, you could be extra forgiving.

  14. #614
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    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Not anymore, and same time define top.

    Generally even up to top 250, stupid shit dont get tolerated for long anymore, like dying to easy-mode ground effect ability more than once.

    Especially in TBC, with the attunements and having to recarry people, you could be extra forgiving.
    Going from memory, in TBC it was a top 250 guild, in WotLK it was top 100 (maybe top 50), MoP was lower though, can't remember what, probably top 400.

    They all had terrible players that would piss me off with their stupidity on progress, and in the end I found it better to just raid with friends.

    And yes, if I joined a top guild today, I would still come across terrible players. Mythic is not that hard.

  15. #615
    Quote Originally Posted by potis View Post
    Not anymore, and same time define top.

    Generally even up to top 250, stupid shit dont get tolerated for long anymore, like dying to easy-mode ground effect ability more than once.

    Especially in TBC, with the attunements and having to recarry people, you could be extra forgiving.
    Yep, top end raiding nowadays has too many tools to know how good you actually are, in vanilla tbc etc these tools werent available, so A TON of people were actually trash and still managed spots on top guilds, you can see method roster and any top tier guild, they are all insane players, you cant say the same about "top tier" players from vanilla/tbc.

  16. #616
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    Going from memory, in TBC it was a top 250 guild, in WotLK it was top 100 (maybe top 50), MoP was lower though, can't remember what, probably top 400.

    They all had terrible players that would piss me off with their stupidity on progress, and in the end I found it better to just raid with friends.
    Yeah, and my own guild that in WoTLK was around top 80 for the first period of 7 months, had some terrible players looking back to it, but the whole "Friends" and "IRL" was quite forgiving myself, but looking back, dear god, its the same now but i am 1000% more casual oriented so i tolerate their badness and its only HC clears so.

    That just shows the game design up to that point really, how Time +Gear can carry you a long way.

    And no, the higher you go in ranks , the less terrible players you find, since there is a massive difference nowadays how progress actually works.
    Last edited by potis; 2019-09-03 at 10:07 AM.

  17. #617
    Elemental Lord Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Yep, top end raiding nowadays has too many tools to know how good you actually are, in vanilla tbc etc these tools werent available, so A TON of people were actually trash and still managed spots on top guilds, you can see method roster and any top tier guild, they are all insane players, you cant say the same about "top tier" players from vanilla/tbc.
    It's always been easy to spot trash players, you don't need warcraft logs, if you do, maybe you're a bit trash yourself.

  18. #618
    Quote Originally Posted by Tekkommo View Post
    It's always been easy to spot trash players, you don't need warcraft logs, if you do, maybe you're a bit trash yourself.
    Yeah, but nowadays theres too many stuff that can put your perfomance to shame, mainly wlogs, imagine vanilla and tbc with wlogs, top end raiding would have been waaaay different.

  19. #619
    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Yep, top end raiding nowadays has too many tools to know how good you actually are, in vanilla tbc etc these tools werent available, so A TON of people were actually trash and still managed spots on top guilds, you can see method roster and any top tier guild, they are all insane players, you cant say the same about "top tier" players from vanilla/tbc.
    You could still spot terrible players back then, you just had to be more forgiving cause poaching + re-gearing and many similar things.

    The tools existing just makes it easier to show them "Yo, get it out of your mind you are good, you are down right horrible".

  20. #620
    Elemental Lord Tekkommo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frozenbro View Post
    Yeah, but nowadays theres too many stuff that can put your perfomance to shame, mainly wlogs, imagine vanilla and tbc with wlogs, top end raiding would have been waaaay different.
    Raiding is a totally different game these days compared to back then anyway. Well with the top guilds like Method, the lengths they go to is ridiculous. Not so much now for Method, since the make good money doing it and it's a full time job, but if you raid like that and have a full time job, damn... it's impossible for me.

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