Average guild wipes on MC trash and bosses (twitch clips)

[Mullet Man]

Trash loot, that are worth nothing. But cool, keep going, it is entertaining.

Yeah, that is why I no longer play Retail.
And millions like me made the same decision long ago.

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MC isn't and was never designed to be hard. Our guild was semi-casual and sucky but we downed every boss in MC quite fast. Same with BWL, that one took a few more wipes though. AQ40 / Naxx started to become a bit demanding.

I was a filthy causal even back in 2004/2006.
And my guild also cleared MC/BWL/AQ20/ZG.
I never tried AQ40 or Naxx.
Hence the reason I'm excited for Classic.
As a dirty casual, I want a go at them, no matter how long it takes.

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I would be interested to see a Cutting Edge guild from retail tackling on Molten Core, that would be more relable imo, cause if this average guild you speak of are actually hard stuck heroic raiders or even worse normal raiders , then its kinda meme.

Whoever they are, they are all on the bleeding edge of the Classic leveling curve to reach 57+ in a single week.

[Hatorri]

This is what average guilds will experience in MC.
The "hard" part of MC is herding 40 players, getting them to function as unit, and to understand the mechanics of the fights.
As with any Raid in Retail or Classic, its going to take practice to make it "easy".

Trash:
https://clips.twitch.tv/CaringSucculentLyrebirdDuDudu

Wipes on Baron Geddon:
https://clips.twitch.tv/KnottyKindKoupreyBibleThump
https://clips.twitch.tv/PrettyCheerfulDootKeepo
https://clips.twitch.tv/EnjoyableAmazingLarkCmonBruh

Baron Down on 4th attempt:
https://clips.twitch.tv/CrazyHorribleWalletPMSTwin

Sulfuron wipe:
https://clips.twitch.tv/SquareInquis...eindeerArgieB8

Today ppl have the knowledge of the old ppl and the video's and guides plus discord, try to do all that without anything just with the knowledge you will get through of hundreds of wipes and get the info on the chat by the leaders. so sorry if i dont say grats to those they do that today in 2 or 3 days as Apes did.

[Drattz]

You are yet again ignoring the fact that at best they are 3 healing this content. https://imgur.com/a/U5G6RLw One of the wipes you linked on Geddon was to a tank death. Now whether the healing is low because of the gear, the fact that they aren't 60, or the fact that they are dumpster baby levels of capable I don't know. What I do know is that when you have any ability to at all choose who you have in your raid you wouldn't 3 heal MC without top quality players.

[Frozenbro]

Whoever they are, they are all on the bleeding edge of the Classic leveling curve to reach 57+ in a single week.

Yeah, thats why it would be interesting to know which retail "raiding tier" they belong to so you can more or less draw the line.

[Mullet Man]

Wiping a few times on bosses while they are in there the first time hardly constitutes "hard". Its the learning process. Noone claimed everything woule be oneshot (well, maybe some did, but that would be silly). But a raid isn't "hard" because you wipe a few times when you are unprepared. The difficulty comes from how long you take to learn to overcome the challenge, and considering every boss has like 1-2 key abilities only - not very long.

Herding 40 players inside a raid isn't really that much harder then herding 25 or 30 on retail. The bigger challenge is recruitment and keeping players happy, getting a few extras and making sure everyone knows that they'll need to sit out occasionally since the raid is full. But this "challenge" is on a few key people per raid, not on everyone, so its hardly relevant for the majority.

Based on what APES accomplished, some certainly claimed everything was going to be oneshot, and there was no challenge.
There is a challenge for the average guild.

[Mullet Man]

You are yet again ignoring the fact that at best they are 3 healing this content. https://imgur.com/a/U5G6RLw One of the wipes you linked on Geddon was to a tank death. Now whether the healing is low because of the gear, the fact that they aren't 60, or the fact that they are dumpster baby levels of capable I don't know. What I do know is that when you have any ability to at all choose who you have in your raid you wouldn't 3 heal MC without top quality players.

Yeah, that is the hard part with the average Classic guild.
You don't get to pick top quality players.
You might get a few, but you are certain including some that are sub-par.
You get what you got a lot of time because of the 40 man raid size.

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There is still nothing average about a guild that is doing MC this week. There is nothing normal about an MC run with people below level 60 still in leveling gear.

Maybe the two equal each other out?

[GreenJesus]

I mean world bosses in retail require you to "gather 40 people" too.. logistics has nothing to do with difficulty of a fight. Either a fight is hard or it isn't.

And btw the average player is probably still around level 20-30.

[quite an expert in wow]

Indeed. I don't enjoy games that you don't even need to play.
Just join LFR, go AFK, collect loot.

what about doing more difficult content than LFR? let's say for example normal

[Xyltin-Laav]

Not really much to understand the fight as boss have 1 or 2 abilities.

Once you get an average guild in it, meaning a guild where everyone is 60 and in T0 and listening to RL and not yoloing, ppl will breath through it.

You are right, but that is MC. It was not designed to be complex for a good reason: No way of finding out about the mechancis except going there and fighting. Think about it this way: How often would you need to wipe if Azsharas skills wouldn't be know? How long would a raid need to understand how each skill works without having that information already.

In BWL you already get to more mechanics and even more in AQ and Naaxx. But MC was designed around no boss mods and no intel on the internet or in the game except fighting and experienceing it. In a time where we now have that intel for MC it is easy. Get ~2 tries per boss to get the grp synced up and kill. Go on.

[Mullet Man]

I mean world bosses in retail require you to "gather 40 people" too.. logistics has nothing to do with difficulty of a fight. Either a fight is hard or it isn't.

If I understand correctly, most (all?) the world bosses are spank and tank for the most part.
They don't required any coordination whatsoever between players.
You can just tag the boss and sit back and let everyone else do the work, correct?

As you can see in the clips I provided, non-coordination on MC trash will lead to a wipe.
If you can't get your raid to cooperate and work as a unit, its going to be "hard" to kill any bosses or complete the raid.

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Maybe we should just give Classic time and then start making statements about how it works instead of trying to judge everything the first week?

That ship sailed when the Anti-Classic crowd was crowing about APES clearing MC.

[Drattz]

Yeah, that is the hard part with the average Classic guild.
You don't get to pick top quality players.
You might get a few, but you are certain including some that are sub-par.
You get what you got a lot of time because of the 40 man raid size.

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Maybe the two equal each other out?

You don't need to pick top quality you need to pick people who can heal at least as much as the overhealing of your best healer. THey had 3 people healing for more than 1/3 of the healing of the top healer and I am counting the top healer in that. In MC you want about 8 healers in general those 8 healers can do 50% of the healing of that top healer and you would be set for healing in there. A player with that level of play isn't you picking and choosing that's you finding someone who can roll their face across their keyboard while targeting the tank. If you can't find 8 people of that quality take 10 healers, or 12. The fact is that nothing in this raid is tight at all making it so you don't have massive lenience on comp that just requires people not be drooling morons.

[Mullet Man]

what about doing more difficult content than LFR? let's say for example normal

As noted earlier, I'm a filthy casual.
My experience was most guilds didn't stop at Normal.
You were expected to keep pushing up the stack, and devote more and more time.
Not something I could afford to do.

[ldev]

okay, so "sodapopin" sucks and his guild wipes. One bad player leading other bads doesn't make content non trivial.

[Loosecannon]

I would be interested to see a Cutting Edge guild from retail tackling on Molten Core, that would be more relable imo, cause if this average guild you speak of are actually hard stuck heroic raiders or even worse normal raiders , then its kinda meme.

I recognise some of the players in this raid as players who are top end M+ players/ perhaps in Method? (Particularly Naowh and Lepan?)

I don't follow the whole thing all that much but if the rest of the players are their friends they are likely pretty good at WoW

[Mullet Man]

You don't need to pick top quality you need to pick people who can heal at least as much as the overhealing of your best healer. THey had 3 people healing for more than 1/3 of the healing of the top healer and I am counting the top healer in that. In MC you want about 8 healers in general those 8 healers can do 50% of the healing of that top healer and you would be set for healing in there. A player with that level of play isn't you picking and choosing that's you finding someone who can roll their face across their keyboard while targeting the tank. If you can't find 8 people of that quality take 10 healers, or 12. The fact is that nothing in this raid is tight at all making it so you don't have massive lenience on comp that just requires people not be drooling morons.

I think they picked 40 people that were level 57+ and went for it.
I suspect you will see the same for many casual guilds.

[Kolvarg]

So it's easy. Really, you are preaching to the choir. We all know it's easy. Just like LFR.

I think the point is that people are exaggerating a lot after seeing MC cleared in the first week, or cleared without a full 60 group, when in reality the average player is not able to do that. I mean it's the same logic as saying current Mythic raids are easy because Method clears them in a week or two. The fact that even some of the more dedicated players (which are already near lvl 60) can have some troubles, means that while still not a huge challenge, it certainly won't be a plain cakewalk for the average player.

Classic raids are definitely much less complex than current raids, especially these first ones, and especially in Classic where the balance is different from when they first released. I wouldn't say they are "like LFR" though. First of all because while LFR fights still have more mechanics than Classic raids, the majority of them don't really matter and in most bosses you can basically still get a kill without anyone paying attention to tactics. But also because in LFR you get a stacking buff each time you wipe, making it basically impossible to fail if you try enough times. Not to mention that if you do get a bad enough group, you can just leave and re-queue , when in Classic you get locked for the week.

[Dhrizzle]

Blast from the past - here's what the average guild will experience with Onyxia.

[Mullet Man]

okay, so "sodapopin" sucks and his guild wipes. One bad player leading other bads doesn't make content non trivial.

Please don't name shame in this thread.
Plus, I believe Soda at one time held rank 1 pvp titles.
Not sure I would say he "sucks".

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I think the point is that people are exaggerating a lot after seeing MC cleared in the first week, or cleared without a full 60 group, when in reality the average player is not able to do that. I mean it's the same logic as saying current Mythic raids are easy because Method clears them in a week or two. The fact that even some of the more dedicated players (which are already near lvl 60) can have some troubles, means that while still not a huge challenge, it certainly won't be a plain cakewalk for the average player.

Classic raids are definitely much less complex than current raids, especially these first ones, and especially in Classic where the balance is different from when they first released. I wouldn't say they are "like LFR" though. First of all because while LFR fights still have more mechanics than Classic raids, the majority of them don't really matter and in most bosses you can basically still get a kill without anyone paying attention to tactics. But also because in LFR you get a stacking buff each time you wipe, making it basically impossible to fail if you try enough times. Not to mention that if you do get a bad enough group, you can just leave and re-queue , when in Classic you get locked for the week.

Thank you!!!
Someone does get it.

[Drattz]

Please don't name shame in this thread.
Plus, I believe Soda at one time held rank 1 pvp titles.
Not sure I would say he "sucks".

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Thank you!!!
Someone does get it.

Because he was doing completely worthless healing in the clips you linked?

[Mullet Man]

Blast from the past - here's what the average guild will experience with Onyxia.

LOL, a classic.
And yes, I expect some unfortunate groups will get to experience this again.