Where does the orcish concept of honor even come from?

[blahdiblah]

Seriously

The orcs began attacking and killing Draenei BEFORE even accepting the blood. Most orcs pretty much universally agreed on this. Then they accept the blood and they begin carving a road out of the skulls and bones of thousands of innocents, open the dark portal and butcher everything on the other end like animals. Their eyes were red, their mouths literally foaming with spit and rage.

But here comes the plot hole. Mannoroth NEVER DIED! Which means that in theory the orcs should still be enslaved or atleast have demonic influence after escaping to Kalimdor. They were still killing night elves, they were still driving out and butchering native species, I.E Centaurs and Quillboars. What did thrall ever do that was honorable? He literally let his people suffer in durotar under a sun, under harsh conditions, no farm land, no nothing, just because "We need to be teached a lesson for what we did" HE DIDNT EVEN PARTICIPATE IN THE KILLING! HE HAS NO SAY

So why the hell is Saurfang whining about honor. He Willingly massacred Karabor, HE willingly massacred Draenei at the road to the dark portal, He willingly massacred the people of stormwind, and he Willingly massacred the people of Teldrassil. He is a massive hypocrite.

have you ever played Warcraft3 ?? and have u ever done Escape from Durnholde dungeon from TBC? it answers all your questions

[Eucep]

He miscalculated. Keeping orcs in a barren wasteland with no resources meant they HAD to conquer.

Nah, by that time it was actually a food issue and they needed supplies, they wanted to trade. And there was no reason for the night elves to deny aid after the horde's help in beating down on Arthas. But the Twilight Hammer made sure that did not happen. They just needed to count on that Cairne had little reason to trust Garrosh yet, thus setting off that whole chain of events.

Had the Twilight Hammer not butted in, likely we still had warchief Garrosh by time of Legion/BFA, Tauren leader Cairne as bonus too.

[Aucald]

on top of that, the Horde literally does every dishonorable act listed as a freaking standard for warfare.

And the idea of not acting dishonorable because it would attract unwanted hatred towards the Clan/Horde?

TOP. FUCKING. KEK.

I don't care if your handful of outliers that can be counted on one hand act "honrable", the current iteration of the Horde, even during Thrall's time, has acted no different than the old Horde. Their sense of "honor" is a scapegoat for not wanting to put the effort in to kill something that very moment at best.

Again, that's conflating "our" (as in humanity in the real world) standard for warfare - Azeroth has no Geneva Accords, no world court, and no permanent ruling body that decides what is or isn't acceptable in war. Both the Alliance and the Horde pitch themselves into Total War pretty much every time conflict comes up. By our standards the Humans of WoW have used WMD's multiple times now - such as the Arcane firestorm that decimated the Amani during the Troll Wars.

The Orcs come from a savage world where clan ties and membership were paramount to survival and exile was considered a punishment worse than death itself - as it meant death as well as the loss of all honor, a base existence in the Orcish social hierarchy. Honor isn't always an ideal that the Horde has lived up to, either; both before and after they came to live on Azeroth. I'm explaining the concept itself, not whether any given Orc has lived it well.

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The fact that guy who used army of literal backstabbers is having moral dilemma over backstabbing someone is hilarious. What makes it even better is that he is supposed to be likeable and relatable.

"Backstabbing" wasn't the issue with Malfurion, interference was - Saurfang interfered in a duel between Sylvanas and Malfurion, something that's been shown to be dishonorable conduct for an Orc. If Malfurion had been otherwise unoccupied it would behoove Saurfang to try to get the drop on him, and he would capitalize on that if it were presented to him - Saurfang isn't a fool, after all, and he knew Malfurion was more personally powerful than he was. Butting into an ongoing duel, however, was another matter altogether.

[Lothaeryn]

Again, that's conflating "our" (as in humanity in the real world) standard for warfare - Azeroth has no Geneva Accords, no world court, and no permanent ruling body that decides what is or isn't acceptable in war. Both the Alliance and the Horde pitch themselves into Total War pretty much every time conflict comes up. By our standards the Humans of WoW have used WMD's multiple times now - such as the Arcane firestorm that decimated the Amani during the Troll Wars.

The Orcs come from a savage world where clan ties and membership were paramount to survival and exile was considered a punishment worse than death itself - as it meant death as well as the loss of all honor, a base existence in the Orcish social hierarchy. Honor isn't always an ideal that the Horde has lived up to, either; both before and after they came to live on Azeroth. I'm explaining the concept itself, not whether any given Orc has lived it well.

Spare me the goalpost shifting, you've been called out on your bullshit far more times than i care to count, and I'm not in the mood for debate with a wall.

The Horde ultimately knows what Honor is, they write the rules on it for themselves and ultimately has time and again ignored those rules for convenience of plot. This goes more into the writer's faults than in game narrative at this point, and discussing the ethics of it its simply pointless as writers have retconned almost all of the lore up until this point consistently for the sake of new plots to explore.

[Topornic]

Again, that's conflating "our" (as in humanity in the real world) standard for warfare - Azeroth has no Geneva Accords, no world court, and no permanent ruling body that decides what is or isn't acceptable in war. Both the Alliance and the Horde pitch themselves into Total War pretty much every time conflict comes up. By our standards the Humans of WoW have used WMD's multiple times now - such as the Arcane firestorm that decimated the Amani during the Troll Wars.

The Orcs come from a savage world where clan ties and membership were paramount to survival and exile was considered a punishment worse than death itself - as it meant death as well as the loss of all honor, a base existence in the Orcish social hierarchy. Honor isn't always an ideal that the Horde has lived up to, either; both before and after they came to live on Azeroth. I'm explaining the concept itself, not whether any given Orc has lived it well.

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"Backstabbing" wasn't the issue with Malfurion, interference was - Saurfang interfered in a duel between Sylvanas and Malfurion, something that's been shown to be dishonorable conduct for an Orc. If Malfurion had been otherwise unoccupied it would behoove Saurfang to try to get the drop on him, and he would capitalize on that if it were presented to him - Saurfang isn't a fool, after all, and he knew Malfurion was more personally powerful than he was. Butting into an ongoing duel, however, was another matter altogether.

Oh look we have just fucking slaughtered hundreds of night elves and started burning acres of forest during the attack which I led but oh no I interfered into a duel what I am going to do now. Sob sob. Saurfang is just a shameful idiot and killing him is doing that dumbass a favour.

Orcs were, are an will be always a conquering people and honour is just a towel they used to clean blood of their hands.

[Aucald]

Spare me the goalpost shifting, you've been called out on your bullshit far more times than i care to count, and I'm not in the mood for debate with a wall.

The Horde ultimately knows what Honor is, they write the rules on it for themselves and ultimately has time and again ignored those rules for convenience of plot. This goes more into the writer's faults than in game narrative at this point, and discussing the ethics of it its simply pointless as writers have retconned almost all of the lore up until this point consistently for the sake of new plots to explore.

Considering it was goalpost established in my very post, it's hardly shifted. If you don't want to debate the point then don't respond - if you put forth an argument you can't really be surprised for it to be addressed, or if it considered lacking to have that brought up as well.

The Orcish concept of honor has been mostly explained and exemplified several times now - we generally know what it is, and how it's applied. Understanding the concept and living by it are two different things, and two different arguments altogether. Conflating the two is an error in argumentation. Jumping from internal to external perspective (internal to the narrative to external in this case) actually is a shift in framing, though.

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Oh look we have just fucking slaughtered hundreds of night elves and started burning acres of forest during the attack which I led but oh no I interfered into a duel what I am going to do now. Sob sob. Saurfang is just a shameful idiot and killing him is doing that dumbass a favour.

Orcs were, are an will be always a conquering people and honour is just a towel they used to clean blood of their hands.

War is war and people die in its execution - that's true for Orcs, and Humans, Night Elves, and Draenei. The Orcish sense of honor exalts in war as means of proving rightness of cause (essentially "might makes right"). I'm not saying this is a good thing by my own morality (it isn't), and I don't personally believe that war is really ever a good thing. But we're talking about what Orcs believe - not what I believe, not even what Night Elves believe.

Orcs are certainly a conquering people, it was required in their world to survive and is pretty much baked into their elemental nature at this point. Their sense of honor reinforces this, but also serves as a means by which they prevent their own savagery from turning on themselves. In terms of alignment Orcs are essentially chaotic - and they can express themselves as good, neutral, or evil under that general umbrella.

[Mehrunes]

I don't know about Orcs at large, but Saurfang's honor comes from a magic 8-ball. He asks it for the meaning of honor every day as he wakes. That's why generally it's suicide by enemy soldier. But sometimes it's attacking enemy from behind. Yet sometimes it's also not attacking the enemy from behind. Sometimes it's obeying your commander, but it also can be disobeying your commander. Sometimes it's outright betraying your entire faction, cooperating with its enemies and abandoning your duties as a racial leader of the Orcs. Sometimes it's moping in an Alliance prison, shitting on the very concept of Lok'tar Ogar and making your ancestors roll in their graves.

[Syegfryed]

It come from old societies concept of honor, like Nordic, Japanese and mongol people, the orc honor is pretty much the Bushido from the Samurais

The orcs began attacking and killing Draenei BEFORE even accepting the blood. Most orcs pretty much universally agreed on this.

yeah because they believed in their shamans/ancestors/spirits, who said it was the right thing.

The orcs were a primitive and naive tribal society with spiritism as their core religion, obviously they would believe int hen

Then they accept the blood and they begin carving a road out of the skulls and bones of thousands of innocents, open the dark portal and butcher everything on the other end like animals. Their eyes were red, their mouths literally foaming with spit and rage.

yes, controlled by the legion and drived by demonic frenzy

But here comes the plot hole. Mannoroth NEVER DIED! Which means that in theory the orcs should still be enslaved or atleast have demonic influence after escaping to Kalimdor.

He did died, he return to the twisting nether to regenerate, the blood pact was broken.

They were still killing night elves,

night elves were still killing then, they shot first and continue to attack

they were still driving out and butchering native species, I.E Centaurs and Quillboars.

Like humans did with gnolls and trolls, like night elves did too, this is not new, those native species were butchering taurens and orcs

So why the hell is Saurfang whining about honor. He Willingly massacred Karabor,

he didn't

HE willingly massacred Draenei at the road to the dark portal, He willingly massacred the people of stormwind,

he was willingly, he was under demoic frenzy

and he Willingly massacred the people of Teldrassil. He is a massive hypocrite.

he didn't massacred people


what im seeing here is once again another biased topic hatting on orcs, this is like wod over again, jesus;

[Frontenac]

There is two kinds of honour. The oldest kind is external, the more modern kind is interior. External honour is all about standing and reputation within your society, tribe, clan, etc. Think about chivalry or bushido. Since the Orcs are a warrior society, honour is all about fighting, victory and how you achieve victory (Victory or Death!). It's not about morality. Well, not much. The braver you are, the more victory you gain, the more honour you have, providing that you fight according to how your clan wants you to fight. Acting out of cowardice is the most dishonorable act. Refusing a fight is dishonorable. A dishonorable person will also hurt the honour of the family, clan, tribe, etc. That's the kind of honour that gave us duels, ritual suicides, crimes of honour, pregnant girls expelled from the paternal house and forced into prostitution, concepts like "bastard," etc.

Internal honour is more about acting according to your own moral standards. A man of honour is a man whose feet follow the lips, as we say. It's all about integrity, respect of others, loyalty, etc. Of course, such an honorable man will gain social standing. However, a dishonorable man will not attack the honor of the family, clan, etc. In WoW, that kind of honour seems to be more represented within the Alliance and probably the Blood Elves, Nightborn and the like. I don't believe the Goblins or Undead really care about the concept...

When Anduin says that Saurfang is honorable, he says that Saurfang is trustworthy, that he lives by his word, that he's able of meekness and clemency towards his enemy. When an Orc says that Saurfang is honorable, he says that Saurfang is a brave, skilled and powerful warrior that won many victories for the Horde.

[Nathreim]

Seriously

The orcs began attacking and killing Draenei BEFORE even accepting the blood. Most orcs pretty much universally agreed on this. Then they accept the blood and they begin carving a road out of the skulls and bones of thousands of innocents, open the dark portal and butcher everything on the other end like animals. Their eyes were red, their mouths literally foaming with spit and rage.

But here comes the plot hole. Mannoroth NEVER DIED! Which means that in theory the orcs should still be enslaved or atleast have demonic influence after escaping to Kalimdor. They were still killing night elves, they were still driving out and butchering native species, I.E Centaurs and Quillboars. What did thrall ever do that was honorable? He literally let his people suffer in durotar under a sun, under harsh conditions, no farm land, no nothing, just because "We need to be teached a lesson for what we did" HE DIDNT EVEN PARTICIPATE IN THE KILLING! HE HAS NO SAY

So why the hell is Saurfang whining about honor. He Willingly massacred Karabor, HE willingly massacred Draenei at the road to the dark portal, He willingly massacred the people of stormwind, and he Willingly massacred the people of Teldrassil. He is a massive hypocrite.

Fist off ALL shaman had visions of the Draenei destroying the Orcs. A lot of people think it was only Nerzul but in fact every shaman started to get these visions. The ancestors and elements had never lied and were always protecting the Orcs so they had absolutely no reason to doubt them.

Mannaroth does die but his spirit is given a new body with new blood so when Grom killed him the blood curse is lifted since that body is destroyed. The Night Elves attacked the Warsong first with no warning which is partially why the Orcs have constantly been at odds with them.

Centaur are evil creatures who serve the Old Gods. Quillboar are also evil they capture and murder everyone they can for dark rituals and work with the Scourge.

Saurfang learned from what happened on Draenor and he does not massacre the Night Elves he only kills combatants. He captured hundreds of people in Darkshore but did not harm them at all. Still he is a hypocrite given what he said about Garrosh in Warcrimes and how he abandoned the Horde instead of challenging Sylvanas.

When Doomhammer found out about Gul'dan and the Shadow Council and how they murdered Durotan and sold the Orcs into slavery he didnt turn and run. He challenged Blackhand knowing full well that if he died the Horde would never be free that the future of the Orcs hinged on this one fight. Thats what Saurfang should have done thats what Orcish honor demands.

But I dont blame him I blame Blizz for forcing the Horde into this position once again with terrible writing.

[Kyphael]

For everyone running into walls debating the concept of honor for the Orcs, or lack thereof, it's like @Sfidt said, the writing is so awful, and has been retconned so many times that it's not even worth the time making heads or tails, particularly pertaining to Orc culture and their practices. We're not even entirely clear on the rules of Mak'gora. It's been interpreted as weapons are ok, and no powers, to powers being ok, but then when Thrall used lightning to kill Garrosh, he cheated. The Orcs come off as walking contradictions because the writing has contradicted itself more times than one, @Aucald, and kudos to you for putting out such concise, well thought-out and highly articulate posts to clarify much on it, ultimately, Orcish culture has been the worst written in all of WoW. And that's without even bringing up Warlords of Draenor.

[Finear]

That's probably something Blizzard didn't think about when they pulled out of nowhere the idea that "demons can only be killed in the Nether" to bring back Archimonde (because obviously they couldn't just use AU Archimonde! Oh right, there is no AU Archimonde.

we knew demons only really die in twisting nether looong before WOD was even announced

[Dudenoso]

Someone delusional, given that they have nothing that would normally count as honor. It basically seems to amount to honor = "Whatever I find tasteful at the moment."

Indeed. Whenever people talk about honor, it's almost always a proxy for "Whatever we more or less idealise about how people should behave".

Which means it's a very fluid concept.

[Mehrunes]

It come from old societies concept of honor, like Nordic, Japanese and mongol people, the orc honor is pretty much the Bushido from the Samurai

Bushido isn't that old. It originates in the Edo period, so in 17th century. If you want to look at actually old Japanese concept of honor look no further than Sengoku era, when honor meant something drastically different and was pretty much about doing whatever was necessary to secure victory for your Daimyo. Which with exception of indecisive and suicidal exceptions like Saurfang, is pretty much more in line with Orcs' views on the matter.

[eurojust]

Fist off ALL shaman had visions of the Draenei destroying the Orcs. A lot of people think it was only Nerzul but in fact every shaman started to get these visions. The ancestors and elements had never lied and were always protecting the Orcs so they had absolutely no reason to doubt them.

See it's never the Orcs fault when they genocide people. It's only because the Elements/Demons/Grom and his Son/Pretty Undead Lady told them to do it.

[Leodok]

But here comes the plot hole. Mannoroth NEVER DIED!

Indres NEVER HEARD ABOUT GROM!

He Willingly massacred Karabor, HE willingly massacred Draenei at the road to the dark portal, He willingly massacred the people of stormwind

And that's exactly how he learned the importance of honor in the first place. He doesn't preach about it despite what he did, he preaches BECAUSE of what he did and the scars that left on him.

he Willingly massacred the people of Teldrassil

Indres NEVER DID THE PRE-PATCH QUESTS!

[Feanoro]

For everyone running into walls debating the concept of honor for the Orcs, or lack thereof, it's like @Sfidt said, the writing is so awful, and has been retconned so many times that it's not even worth the time making heads or tails, particularly pertaining to Orc culture and their practices. We're not even entirely clear on the rules of Mak'gora. It's been interpreted as weapons are ok, and no powers, to powers being ok, but then when Thrall used lightning to kill Garrosh, he cheated. The Orcs come off as walking contradictions because the writing has contradicted itself more times than one, @Aucald, and kudos to you for putting out such concise, well thought-out and highly articulate posts to clarify much on it, ultimately, Orcish culture has been the worst written in all of WoW. And that's without even bringing up Warlords of Draenor.

Honor as written by people who clearly have no concept of it or worse, sneer at such ideals. We're consistently TOLD the orcs are peaceful, spiritual people with commitment to family and honor. What we're SHOWN is raging, bloodthirsty beasts to the point that it was lampshaded in Sylvie's arguments, that the Horde would soon want blood.

See it's never the Orcs fault when they genocide people. It's only because the Elements/Demons/Grom and his Son/Pretty Undead Lady told them to do it.

And orc apologists don't seem to understand that claiming they're that stupid doesn't improve things. If they're that damn stupid and gullible, they need to be regarded as dangerous animals.

Indres NEVER HEARD ABOUT GROM!

Or he's pointing out how the WoD multiverse nonsense screwed up that plot point.

And that's exactly how he learned the importance of honor in the first place. He doesn't preach about it despite what he did, he preaches BECAUSE of what he did and the scars that left on him.

Would have some meaning if he hadn't gleefully planned a genocidal campaign but only had a problem with interfering in a duel. Hell, his objection to burning Teldrassil was more about the Horde getting the Alliance's full fury than anything about honor.

[Syegfryed]

Bushido isn't that old. It originates in the Edo period, so in 17th century. If you want to look at actually old Japanese concept of honor look no further than Sengoku era, when honor meant something drastically different and was pretty much about doing whatever was necessary to secure victory for your Daimyo. Which with exception of indecisive and suicidal exceptions like Saurfang, is pretty much more in line with Orcs' views on the matter.

yeah, but Bushido is not the only one that i said, orc honor is a mix from past cultures, like would want to die in battle to go to a better "honorable place, fight for your ancestors and other shenanigans

i know you like to bash saurfang but he is another matter, suffering ptsd and other mental problems

[Melsiren]

Honor is arbitrary, often changing meaning from culture to culture, and overtime what brings one honor in one culture can shift.

[Trassk]

Orcish honour is about honouring ones clan and the values of that clan. This is why if you have a frostwolf using honour, that's about survival and respect to the wilderness and animals, where as a blackrocks sense of honour is about honouring the law of war and conflict and hang whatever means you can to win that war, or even the warsong, again, honouring war and fighting and winning no matter what.

In the current orcs case, the horde is it's clan, and those values are a mixed bag these days