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  1. #21
    I think for any current player raising the level to 130 for the next expansion or squishing it back to 50/60 is fundamentally the same, however for new players it must seem daunting that you have this big open vast world and you have to arbitrarily grind all that way to play with everyone else. Even if the exp is the same from 0 - 120 as it would be for 0 - 60 from a business stand point it makes sense to bring the levels back down, it’s just too much bloat now.

    Obviously a load of things need working out, like if they do squish what happens to everything from 60 - 120 now, how do they resolve that etc. It’s basically a soft reset which is probably long over due.

  2. #22
    Legendary! Obelisk Kai's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by TwoMana View Post
    Also, reputations work somewhat similarly with paragon levels. I'd be OK if they choose to go that way.

    Have a "base story" that is a coherent leveling experience (to some arbitrary number, let's say 60) - and then +5-10 for each "expac specific levels" which players can choose to complete in any order they wish.
    Exactly, I believe it to be an elegant system all around should Blizzard have chosen to go down this path.

    It's important to remember that the decisions regarding the level squish have all been made and implemented and would be extremely difficult if not impossible to reverse at this point. All we can do is speculate as to what those choices are, rather than seeing it as providing useful feedback.

  3. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    What is the problem we're fixing? I rather spend the same amount of time leveling 120 levels than taking twice as long for each level up to 60. I have not understood why a lvl squish is needed, please explain
    Let's not pretend that there isn't a problem here.

    1) Every time the game adds content, it has to give us new gear with better stats, otherwise we won't do that content.

    The stat increase needs to be significant, otherwise we won't care. This means numbers balloon up very quickly. We've had 2 squishes now, and there will likely be more if the game continues, and it will. One squish was ok, but if it continues like that, not only is it lame to have your numbers squished every 5 years, it messes all sorts of things up with old content. We're at a point where if you level up a new character, and you get a gear upgrade, it'll always be something like a +1 increase on your stat. This does not feel exciting. It's much more exciting to get an upgrade that actually increases your stats by a lot. Leveling up a character through old TBC and Wrath content means maybe getting 10 pieces for a certain gear slot while you're going from 60-80, but most of the time it is gear with the exact same stat budget on it, even though it increases in itemlevel. Maybe you'll replace gear in a certain slot 2-3 times in that time period, but it will always be just +1 increases. It is boring. It makes you care less about the gear.

    2) 120 levels are a lot. Even if you like leveling, it's a long, drawn-out "journey".

    We're at a point where Blizzard has deemed it necessary to give out free level boosts and sell additional ones for people who just wanna jump to the current content. Because getting to the current content takes very, very long. It is discouraging for new and old players. And new players potentially get lost in all of that content they have to play through. Sure, leveling is rather fast nowadays, but a new player does not start with any heirlooms, and 120 levels can be really intimidating.

    I don't know what the solutions to these problems are, but the problems are definitely there. Maybe the best thing to do is to get rid of levels and instead have an artifact weapons style talent tree for the entire journey from classic content to BFA. This would require the complete remodeling of the progression system in all of WoW. Quests could give talent points instead of levels. Similar to how we got AP in Legion. We'd level our artifact board. The strength and stats of mobs could therefore scale entirely from classic to BFA. You could get up and go kill wolves in Elwynn or immediately start the Battle for Lordaeron. Instead of getting abilities as you level up, like let's say Blizzard at level 20 or whenever you get it, you would be able to get it whenever you have enough AP to get it in your talent tree. So you'd technically be able to do any kind of content the game has to offer, there is no level requirement, but you'd be missing certain abilities. Especially if you can pick talents in whichever order you want to, that could be chaos, and players might just refuse to play with anyone who doesn't have at least all of his abilities unlocked. But at least it sounds more interesting than leveling through 120 levels, especially when a level scaling system already exists. Might as well go all the way.

    I'm thinking about a board, sort of like it is in Final Fantasy 10. You'd be able to jump around, go into whatever direction you want to, and pick out talents in whatever order you want to. Or you could get the abilities baseline and then increase their potency with AP. I don't know. Certainly seems more exciting than what we have now.
    Last edited by Fenreki; 2019-09-04 at 08:55 AM.

  4. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I don't understand why it's even a problem. Big numbers indicate a vast game; which taken altogether WoW is. This terror in recent years of big numbers is mystifying.
    This is what's so exhausting to me. I don't really get why people have developed this obsession with squishes.

    I don't think a lot of people properly think through the fact that 1-60 and 1-120 is only double the number. If the time to level is the same then it's completely irrelevant and I'd even argue more rewarding to have the larger level number. It's not like we're reaching level 300 or some shit, if Blizzard were to put in some kind of old reward system like a talent tree (that you eventually totally fill out, like artifacts were) to fill the gaps in level and give players about 5-10 new spells per class we'd have a nice flow of progression easily all the way to 120. The problem with leveling right now is the pruning of classes, not the number of levels.

    People keep arguing that it's because it sounds like a daunting number but to be honest I've never seen or heard of anyone daunted by 120. When you factor in that from a Blizzard employee's own mouth they admit it'd have to be done by hand, manually, I just don't see why this is worth worrying about over much bigger issues the game has right now.

  5. #25
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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    One of the attractions of the game is that it's vast. It's big. New players get a character to play with near end game. If they want to roll something on their own time to go and explore, why not? I agree that the zones are a mess and that the leveling experience is terrible but it seems to me that the correct call there is to fix the damn leveling process, not shrink the game down to make it look as if it were released last year with 60 levels.
    We have to accept a level squish is almost certainly happening and that the decisions pertaining it to have been taken. Whilst I acknowledge there is a case to be made for the current level cap, it is a battle that is already over it seems.

    As such, I am hoping that Blizzard treats the level squish as an opportunity to fix the mess that is the levelling system. The plotline from Cataclysm onwards is fairly coherent, with Northrend and Outland being the outliers in terms of the story. The 'bucket' levelling system proposed here gets around that IF Blizzard decides to gently guide each player through each expansion with it's own unique story, so that they can see the entire plotline to it's conclusion (Special scenarios with NPCs that cover major raid bosses a la Swtor would be an excellent move).

    Players could be advised then that the active levelling path would be EK and Kalimdor 1-60 (baseline), flowing immediately into the Cataclysm endgame zones with unique cataclysm levels (Cata 60-70).

    They would then be given the opportunity to follow the narrative for it's own sake (MOP-9.0), pick and choose which expansion they wanted to play in whatever order they wanted or simply skip ahead to the most current expansion and ignore everything else.

    Northrend and Outland could be similarly structured, but presented as special 'stories from the past', meaning players could be told to go there to experience the plotlines yet subtly informed that these stories are somewhat disconnected from the main flow of events. You could even have NPCs from the Bronze Dragonflight be the breadcrumb givers to those continents. At a stroke, and with minimal changes, I would argue this system could repair the currently compromised flow of the game's narrative and greatly improve player freedom and choice.

  6. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    This is what's so exhausting to me. I don't really get why people have developed this obsession with squishes.
    Numbers are getting too big for the system to handle. The squishes are necessary. It's not that people want them. Imagine what numbers would look like right now, even if the system could handle them, and if there had not been stat squishes. Your brain wouldn't even be able to process the numbers. They wouldn't even fit on the screen.

  7. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenreki View Post
    I don't know what the solutions to these problems are, but the problems are definitely there.
    Has anyone thought seriously about how these "daunted" new players--few that they are & in possession of a level 120 character for no extra cost when they buy the next expansion--are going to feel about a game that to them will look as if it's been reduced by half? That doesn't really seem to be the sort of image that Blizzard should promote.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Fenreki View Post
    Numbers are getting too big for the system to handle. The squishes are necessary.
    My brain is fine with numbers up to--I don't know--a lot larger than 120.
    "...money's most powerful ability is to allow bad people to continue doing bad things at the expense of those who don't have it."

  8. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by seta-san View Post
    it won't be 80 levels of story mode. it'll be browsing a few main points of the vanilla, bc, and wrath but it should be done in not much more than 6 hours
    NO.

    I have said many times that an MMO has THREE aspects: PvP, PvE, and leveling. When you reduce leveling to 6 hours, you are destroying 1/3 of what makes an MMO. This is a big reason why vanilla is so good. Vanilla actually has a leveling game. Leveling in an MMO should never ever takes merely 6 hours. It should even be in Diablo 3 because it destroys that game too.
    TO FIX WOW:1. smaller server sizes & server-only LFG awarding satchels, so elite players help others. 2. "helper builds" with loom powers - talent trees so elite players cast buffs on low level players XP gain, HP/mana, regen, damage, etc. 3. "helper ilvl" scoring how much you help others. 4. observer games like in SC to watch/chat (like twitch but with MORE DETAILS & inside the wow UI) 5. guild leagues to compete with rival guilds for progression (with observer mode).6. jackpot world mobs.

  9. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Nhodjin View Post
    Instead of a level squish how about Blizzard make 1-60 the base for all leveling? 60 is the new "max" level ALWAYS but then each expansion has their own set of levels. So once you hit level 60 you can play the newest expansion and that expansion has like "10 Legion levels" and you still need to level up in that expansion to experience it. But you could say 1-70 is the max amount of levels you will be leveling regardless of the amount of expansions coming out.

    There's obvious problems with this but i think the benefits could outweigh the negatives. What do you guys think?
    Yeah that's what I've also been suggesting for quite some time now.

  10. #30
    I should add that i think that the 1-60 experience should take place in the old world, giving it the vanilla/classic feel of that content being important and part of the current world. It's not about the amount levels required to level it's about making the leveling experience feel connected and making you immersed into the game world. This is also not about the perspective from retail players with several level 120s, it's about those who would like to come back or start playing WoW not feeling overwhelmed by the fact that there's going to be 130 levels to get before actually doing endgame content.

  11. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Fenreki View Post
    Numbers are getting too big for the system to handle. The squishes are necessary. It's not that people want them. Imagine what numbers would look like right now, even if the system could handle them, and if there had not been stat squishes. Your brain wouldn't even be able to process the numbers. They wouldn't even fit on the screen.
    Yes, I'm sure 130 is going to shatter the game on a fundamental level. Or god forbid, even 150.

    I understood the first damage squish, but what I don't understand or really think is okay at all is that they had to do another one two expansions later because they can't control power inflation. There's no sensible reason why someone in the last tier of Legion should be doing literally ten to twenty times the damage of someone who is a fresh 110. Blizzard is repeatedly being irresponsible with their game and then arguing "oh, well I guess a squish is necessary because numbers got too high, oops!"

    Now we've gotten to the point where people just want Blizzard to squish numbers because...I don't know, actually. Why are people so fixated on the difference between 60 and 130?

  12. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by seta-san View Post
    I've got a better idea. how about 1-80 is actually just a story mode that sort of dumps standard armor on you. it'll take you along certain points depending on your race and class. With each race and class there's certain quest lines you need to complete and certain dungeons/raids you need to do. you will end up in a shattered world of the cataclysm but not at level 80 but at level 10. Now the real game starts.
    Why not have both? Story-mode and level-squish accomplish different objectives.
    Level-squish is there to make the levels themselves more meaningful and appealing. With only 60 levels it is possible to have every level bring you new ability/talent.
    Story-mode will structure the leveling process as a whole.

  13. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    I don't understand why it's even a problem. Big numbers indicate a vast game; which taken altogether WoW is. This terror in recent years of big numbers is mystifying.
    Well if we had fewer levels then each level gained would not only feel rewarding, but Blizzard could actually give us something every level. The main problem with BfA's leveling is that at level 100 you just stop advancing your character in a meaningful way. You don't really get anything new or exciting until 120 (I am aware that you get your first set of azerite gear already at 110, but the traits at these stages are so meaningless... and with 9.0 this system would be gone too, so we wouldn't get anything at all then in the BfA content) and even before level 100 you learn new spells or talents far in between after level 60-ish.

  14. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Zephire View Post
    What is the problem we're fixing? I rather spend the same amount of time leveling 120 levels than taking twice as long for each level up to 60. I have not understood why a lvl squish is needed, please explain
    Because they are running out of ideas to give peopleto get more powerful while leveling. Just look at BFA, there was not a single ability you gained while leveling, and thanks to secondary ratios and mob scaling you got weaker every level you gained. Leveling does not feel like you are getting stronger (as it is meant in a RPG), but it just feels like an artificial timesink while the entire progression is about gear.

  15. #35
    A lot of this is psychological. I don't think some "leveling but not really" system will feel good. People already complain new expansions don't feel like you're getting more powerful, this would add to that feeling.

    Based on some news from the previous months, they probably decided how to implement the squish already, maybe we will learn at Blizzcon

    Quote Originally Posted by RobertMugabe View Post
    Well if we had fewer levels then each level gained would not only feel rewarding, but Blizzard could actually give us something every level. The main problem with BfA's leveling is that at level 100 you just stop advancing your character in a meaningful way. You don't really get anything new or exciting until 120 (I am aware that you get your first set of azerite gear already at 110, but the traits at these stages are so meaningless... and with 9.0 this system would be gone too, so we wouldn't get anything at all then in the BfA content) and even before level 100 you learn new spells or talents far in between after level 60-ish.
    Again, psychological. Getting a talent every 15 levels, instead of getting it every 1 level that takes the exact same amount of time. Personally I don't really see the difference.

  16. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    I understood the first damage squish, but what I don't understand or really think is okay at all is that they had to do another one two expansions later because they can't control power inflation.
    The problem is in the nature of power progression itself. It has to be exponential to feel meaningful to players. And exponential curve always goes too high. Blizzard could only delay things for a another expansion.

  17. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    Has anyone thought seriously about how these "daunted" new players--few that they are & in possession of a level 120 character for no extra cost when they buy the next expansion--are going to feel about a game that to them will look as if it's been reduced by half? That doesn't really seem to be the sort of image that Blizzard should promote.
    It seems less of an issue than forcing players through 120 levels for several weeks, possibly months, depending on how much time they have to play, before they can finally join their friends in the current content. Also don't forget that newer content is often better in many ways. Players would experience Cataclysm, TBC and Wrath content for the first 80-90 levels. Especially TBC and Wrath content is extremely outdated and might just make them think "wow, the game is getting worse and worse". Friends might even suggest they go create a Death Knight first, which means they will immediately get to experience the awesomeness that is Hellfire Peninsula. Granted they can also make a Demon Hunter once the DK is 70, which is the only silver lining, but what if that's just not the class they wanna play? Level boosts certainly are a good thing, but they exists because of the problem of having so many levels to go through.

    BFA content looks great, visually and gameplay-wise. Forcing players through outdated content, that graphically looks terrible in many places and is not the best that WoW has to offer gameplay-wise is just not a good idea, and will drive many players away before they ever even get to experience the good stuff.

  18. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Azerate View Post
    A lot of this is psychological. I don't think some "leveling but not really" system will feel good. People already complain new expansions don't feel like you're getting more powerful, this would add to that feeling.

    Based on some news from the previous months, they probably decided how to implement the squish already, maybe we will learn at Blizzcon



    Again, psychological. Getting a talent every 15 levels, instead of getting it every 1 level that takes the exact same amount of time. Personally I don't really see the difference.
    I wish we would get new talents every 15 levels, but we don't even get that anymore...

    Also you talk about this "psychological" thing as if it's nothing important, but it is.
    Last edited by RobertMugabe; 2019-09-04 at 09:20 AM.

  19. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Irian View Post
    Yes, I'm sure 130 is going to shatter the game on a fundamental level. Or god forbid, even 150.

    I understood the first damage squish, but what I don't understand or really think is okay at all is that they had to do another one two expansions later because they can't control power inflation. There's no sensible reason why someone in the last tier of Legion should be doing literally ten to twenty times the damage of someone who is a fresh 110. Blizzard is repeatedly being irresponsible with their game and then arguing "oh, well I guess a squish is necessary because numbers got too high, oops!"

    Now we've gotten to the point where people just want Blizzard to squish numbers because...I don't know, actually. Why are people so fixated on the difference between 60 and 130?
    It's not about whether the level is 120 or 130 or 150. It's the stats of your character and the damage he does. It's just that an increase of the level brings an increase in stats with it. Have you spent a single minute looking into the topic? Why there was a stat squish in the first place? The numbers were getting too big for the system to handle. Now admittedly the level increase is not the biggest offender, but the itemlevel of the gear as patches are being rolled out. The stats of the characters increase exponentially as an expansion progresses, because the gear gives you better and better stats.

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    Quote Originally Posted by MoanaLisa View Post
    My brain is fine with numbers up to--I don't know--a lot larger than 120.
    Jesus Christ you are a mod here, you are supposed to be better than this. I am talking about the character's stats, obviously... You either know that and choose to ignore it, or you truly are ignorant of that. I don't know which one is worse.

    No, 120 is fine, but jumping from doing 3k damage, to 10k, to 100k, to 1million etc. and so on is clearly getting out of control really quickly cause numbers increase exponentially.

  20. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by Nhodjin View Post
    Instead of a level squish how about Blizzard make 1-60 the base for all leveling? 60 is the new "max" level ALWAYS but then each expansion has their own set of levels. So once you hit level 60 you can play the newest expansion and that expansion has like "10 Legion levels" and you still need to level up in that expansion to experience it. But you could say 1-70 is the max amount of levels you will be leveling regardless of the amount of expansions coming out.

    There's obvious problems with this but i think the benefits could outweigh the negatives. What do you guys think?
    I actually like this idea, you could experience leveling, raids and everything about an expansion even if it's not current, of course... every expansion should have different Ilvl etc. a more advanced development of this idea could be great.

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