View Poll Results: 10 days left, what'll it be?

Voters
92. This poll is closed
  • Hard Brexit (crash out)

    45 48.91%
  • No Brexit (Remain by revoking A50)

    24 26.09%
  • Withdrawal Agreement (after a new session is called)

    0 0%
  • Extension + Withdrawal Agreement

    3 3.26%
  • Extension + Crashout

    9 9.78%
  • Extension + Remain

    11 11.96%
  1. #20321
    What the.....

    it's looking like the amendment to bring May's deal back from the dead has passed because there was no tellers available....

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/stat...16764213288962


    'Would be exceptionally difficult for this to be a mistake. Government provided no tellers to oppose. Would be extraordinary if not intentional'

    https://twitter.com/OwenThompson/sta...19152147980288

    Un-fucking-believable! Are there no depths that the government will stoop to?

    - - - Updated - - -

    Anti no-deal passes 327 to 299 and now goes to the Lords.
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-09-04 at 06:48 PM.

  2. #20322
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What the.....

    it's looking like the amendment to bring May's deal back from the dead has passed because there was no tellers available....

    https://twitter.com/PippaCrerar/stat...16764213288962


    'Would be exceptionally difficult for this to be a mistake. Government provided no tellers to oppose. Would be extraordinary if not intentional'

    https://twitter.com/OwenThompson/sta...19152147980288

    Un-fucking-believable! Are there no depths that the government will stoop to?
    So the Govt has essentially let an amendment pass by not providing the appropriate functionaries in order to let an amendment automatically pass that happens to scupper the bill? Is that right?

  3. #20323
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    So the Govt has essentially let an amendment pass by not providing the appropriate functionaries in order to let an amendment automatically pass that happens to scupper the bill? Is that right?
    tHeRe'S nOtHiNg wRoNg wItH ThE bRiTiSh sySTem.

    Shit like this is why people have no confidence the UK will be able to pull its finger out in sufficient time.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  4. #20324
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    that happens to scupper the bill?
    No - it just means that May's deal (with Labour changes) needs to be one of the things discussed during the extension (if one is granted).

  5. #20325
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    What the.....

  6. #20326
    MPs are now moving to vote on whether or not to hold an early GE. It has no chance of passing but it unclear when Lab will support a GE will John Healey contradicting Kier Stamer during an interview with Andrew Neil - Healey says that Lab will back a GE when the extension legislation gains Royal assent whilst Stamer says it will not happen until the extension is implemented. Hopefully we will get some clarification soon.

  7. #20327
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    No - it just means that May's deal (with Labour changes) needs to be one of the things discussed during the extension (if one is granted).
    Aye it seems initial reporting was a tad hyperbolic. TBF though, Elegiac has a point though lol.

  8. #20328
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Aye it seems initial reporting was a tad hyperbolic. TBF though, Elegiac has a point though lol.
    It's not amendment that I have an issue with (I mean who didn't want to see May's deal back again!?) it's the lengths Johnson will go to in an attempt to game the system.

    - - - Updated - - -

    A little more detail on the Kinnock amendment

    'Btw Labour’s legal advice is that Kinnock amendment doesn’t really change the function of the bill'

    https://twitter.com/bbclaurak/status...27766514360320

  9. #20329
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    It's not amendment that I have an issue with (I mean who didn't want to see May's deal back again!?) it's the lengths Johnson will go to in an attempt to game the system.
    Which is exactly my point about Elegiacs...point. The most incredible thing about our democratic system seems to have been that it's guardians did not take the piss at the first available opportunity.

  10. #20330
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    it's the lengths Cummings will go to in an attempt to game the system.
    Fixed that for you, although to be honest his stated aim is to break the system completely.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    The most incredible thing about our democratic system seems to have been that it's guardians did not take the piss at the first available opportunity.
    Non right wing populist governments tend to respect the institutions that they serve in, shock horror.
    Last edited by Dizzeeyooo; 2019-09-04 at 07:24 PM.

  11. #20331
    The Unstoppable Force Jessicka's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    That's not what you claimed. You said that the option for another referendum was in the 2017 manifesto which, as I pointed out, completely and utterly untrue and now you double on the lies by claiming that it is over a year old.

    It was in July this year that Labour came out and said it would back a second referendum (with conditions, of course).

    https://www.theguardian.com/commenti...-corbyn-brexit
    https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-48919695
    https://www.ft.com/content/e3bd800e-...2-2df48f366f7d
    It was policy since it was decided to be Labour policy at the Conference this time last year. There's a link in your own link that confirms that. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47420525
    With the party membership strongly in favour of another vote - and Theresa May not changing tack on her Brexit approach - pressure was building on the leadership to give the public another say.

    A motion supported by delegates at the 2018 party conference said: "If we cannot get a general election Labour must support all options remaining on the table, including campaigning for a public vote."
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Going to need a source on May explicitly stating her absolute priority was ending freedom of movement (and so leaving the single market) from before Article 50 was triggered.
    A50 alludes to it and sets out that NI would still be in the free travel area on Ireland, which is probably what would have been agreed if she didn't fuck up and end up needing to pander to the DUP. This now also seems to be Boris's plan, to cut NI adrift, now he's kicked so many out of the Tories that the C&S deal with the DUP is no longer meaningful.

  12. #20332
    Quote Originally Posted by Kronik85 View Post
    Which is exactly my point about Elegiacs...point. The most incredible thing about our democratic system seems to have been that it's guardians did not take the piss at the first available opportunity.
    There isn't a democratic system on the planet that is without flaws and they all rely on having decent people working within them. Maybe ours is more flawed than others, I dunno?

  13. #20333
    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There isn't a democratic system on the planet that is without flaws and they all rely on having decent people working within them. Maybe ours is more flawed than others, I dunno?
    I think this particular trick strikes at a real fundamental failure of the British system; that votes can basically be invalidated by one party or another deciding they can't be arsed to count the votes. That's INSANE.


    I think the question that there is one question that needs to be asked of Brexiteers now: Is this the democracy you were so willing to put your faith in?

  14. #20334
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    So that amendment doesn't resurrect the WA, or scupper the bill.

    It does fuck with Boris Johnson though, when he goes to seek an extension he has to tell the EC he'll try to get May's thrice dead WA through. Which is funny on so many levels.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by mojojojo202 View Post
    I think this particular trick strikes at a real fundamental failure of the British system; that votes can basically be invalidated by one party or another deciding they can't be arsed to count the votes. That's INSANE.


    I think the question that there is one question that needs to be asked of Brexiteers now: Is this the democracy you were so willing to put your faith in?
    Well usually bills are put in by the government, not the opposition, so to not put tellers out means they accept the amendment without challenge.

    Except this is an opposition bill. Chances are they won't get to pull this trick again.
    Ex-Mod. Technically retired, they just won't let me quit.

  15. #20335
    Quote Originally Posted by Dizzeeyooo View Post
    Non right wing populist governments tend to respect the institutions that they serve in, shock horror.
    I'll give you a /clap for that. Well said.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Pann View Post
    There isn't a democratic system on the planet that is without flaws and they all rely on having decent people working within them. Maybe ours is more flawed than others, I dunno?
    Fair and I think we used to look at the US as the gold standard and that's been dumpstered too. But yeah like other pointers are saying, ours is remarkably flimsy.

  16. #20336
    Quote Originally Posted by Northern Goblin View Post
    Thank you for repeating that hard right wing news point, Parliament supported the triggering of A50 because of the referendum result, everything since then has been the failure of this government to negotiate, to plan and to adapt from their initial stance, Parliament has held them to account at every turn.

    Also the idea that an American is saying Britain hasn't a constitution, when at least 3 of our key founding pieces of legislature are older than your country is amusing.

    Also let's not accuse others of mansplaining something that has been part of our system since before you had one, when you're trying to mansplain our own Parliamentary process to us, incorrectly I might add.
    This isn't a right wing news point, this is obvious regardless of your position. Triggering A50 because of the referendum result without knowing the consequences and not having more of a clue what that entails than the average voter is a blunder at best.

    And let's be clear: The EU wasn't exactly sure where the negotiations where heading, but in hindsight, this was always going to happen with NI. I've said this 3 years ago, it's going to be a problem. And even if you magically wish the problem away, you still have Gibraltar with pretty much the same problem. I don't particularily care for the rest of your post, which is once more just personal attacks and the dismissal of everyone but the British. Your favourite hobby is accusing others of arrogance, I suggest you take a look in the mirror yourself. Others may have wrong information, or wrong perceptions. You can educate them like an adult, in an informative, maybe even well written manner, or you can behave like you do now and just piss everyone off.

    Go ask Caervek how to talk to people that get it wrong, he manages to correct the mistake in one simple sentence, whereas you celebrate your Britishness and deny anyone else to just talk about what is, by now, a global spectacle. That's pathetic.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    What exactly is an opposition party supposed to do?
    In the most simplest terms: Oppose. Not play political games. They should have a view on something and represent that. Not trick the other side into suiciding. An opposition that sits on the fence and refuses to declare itself is useless. Utterly useless. Where are remainers supposed to rally behind? Opposition isn't viable, where then?

    You basically have 48% unrepresented people in your country. That's a percentage that other countries use to start civil wars.
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  17. #20337
    Moderator Northern Goblin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    This isn't a right wing news point,
    No really, it is. Blaiming Parliament for actions that are strictly on the Government despite the actions of Parliament at large has been the Mail and the Express' favourite hobby.

    You're repeating Boris Johnson with that one. You may not like that you are, but such is the way of things.

    You can educate them like an adult, in an informative, maybe even well written manner, or you can behave like you do now and just piss everyone off.
    Patience is a limited commodity, it's often exhausted when you try to explain politely and they straight up ignore you and continue to harp on their same repetitive phrases.

    And my patience with the peanut gallery constantly making incorrect assertions on how Parliament and the British political system works has come to an end when it's met with petty chestbeating and bravado talk from people who thankfully will never be close to a political office.
    Last edited by Northern Goblin; 2019-09-04 at 08:15 PM.
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  18. #20338
    Void Lord Elegiac's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Slant View Post
    In the most simplest terms: Oppose. Not play political games. They should have a view on something and represent that. Not trick the other side into suiciding. An opposition that sits on the fence and refuses to declare itself is useless. Utterly useless. Where are remainers supposed to rally behind? Opposition isn't viable, where then?

    You basically have 48% unrepresented people in your country. That's a percentage that other countries use to start civil wars.
    But that would get in the way of Labour's most pressing issues; being antisemitic and closet Brexiters.
    Quote Originally Posted by Marjane Satrapi
    The world is not divided between East and West. You are American, I am Iranian, we don't know each other, but we talk and understand each other perfectly. The difference between you and your government is much bigger than the difference between you and me. And the difference between me and my government is much bigger than the difference between me and you. And our governments are very much the same.

  19. #20339
    Ken Clarke’s speech was eminent! Awesome to see BoJo get scolded like the child he is.


  20. #20340
    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    It was policy since it was decided to be Labour policy at the Conference this time last year. There's a link in your own link that confirms that. https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-47420525
    That is not a policy for holding another referendum or confirmation that it would back one. It is, as it says, a policy of supporting all options remaining on the table if they cannot secure an election, one of those options was a second referendum.

    I think we have found the only person who was taken in by Labour's policy of constructive ambiguity.

    If as you believe this had been Labour's policy all along, although I notice you've dropped your original lie, then why did several news outlets all report that Labour was backing a second referendum on 9th July?

    Why did the Guardian title their article "Labour is finally backing a second referendum. Is it too little, too late? if it was Labour policy all along? Was the Guardian mistaken?

    Why did Corbyn write to members on 9th July saying “Whoever becomes the new prime minister should have the confidence to put their deal, or no deal, back to the people in a public vote.” if was already Labour policy to hold a ref.? Maybe he felt members needed reminding... or something???

    Quote Originally Posted by Jessicka View Post
    A50 alludes to it and sets out that NI would still be in the free travel area on Ireland, which is probably what would have been agreed if she didn't fuck up and end up needing to pander to the DUP. This now also seems to be Boris's plan, to cut NI adrift, now he's kicked so many out of the Tories that the C&S deal with the DUP is no longer meaningful.
    A50 mentions nothing about NI or free travel. It is the mechanism that allows a member state to withdraw from the EU. There is free travel on the island of Ireland due to the Common Travel Area that has been in place since 1923. They are are absolutely nothing to do with each other.

    The CTA is also what allows British and Irish citizens to travel freely between Britain and Ireland and grants the same rights to Irish citizens in Britain as British citizens and vice versa.
    Last edited by Pann; 2019-09-04 at 08:26 PM.

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