LFG addon is not a bad idea.

[SirCowdog]

Of course it can't be blamed for everything, but it is not welcome to Classic.

It is detrimental to the game, even Blizzard understands it and has admitted this before Classic was announced.

Edit: Actually, just so that I don't just write random crap up, it was Ghostcrawler who regretted adding LFR into WOW after he left Blizzard. Of course actual Blizzard employees wouldn't say that a feature would be bad, lol.

As I tried to explain to Kaver, I'm not arguing for the inclusion of LFR or any other automatic matchmaking systems, or instant teleports to the dungeon. I actually agree, within the context of Vanilla/Classic, that LFR and auto-matchmaking is detrimental.

However, a MANUAL tool to form groups does not have the same detrimental effects or drawbacks. Something along the lines of the Pre-made Group Finder we have in Retail serves the same function as spamming into trade chat, only without the extra spam of whatever political argument, gold sellers, or other nonsense the regularly happens in those channels.

Added to that, my main point of argument is that the communities that form on a single-server environment do so when players of like-mind actually play the game. The method in which those groups are formed(dungeons, raids, or otherwise) is largely irrelevant. When players come together and have fun and enjoy playing with each other, That is where the real value of interaction comes in. That is when friendships are formed. That is how server reputations are built.

But according to Kaver, The only time and place that can happen is after you already have a guild, and after you already have friends. Everyone else on the server can fuck right off, apparently.

[Cassidin]

Classic/vanilla class specs aren't as ''equal'' to each other as they're supposed to be in retail, but as usual it depends on the person playing it to prove the stigma otherwise. And no there's no typical attitude, its frustration and annoyance from all sides that cause these issues.

Just play the game its supposed to be played, stop demanding things be implemented for your own reasons, laziness half the time to be honest. If you don't like it, don't play it, its that simple. I played bfa from release, I stopped enjoying it after a couple months, and I stopped playing. If you don't try it out because of X Y Z reasons, then that's on you.

Hey I just dps'd in Stockades with a "spec" as much holy as shadow (really isnt much in it at that level but with the holy points I didnt have as much damage as I could have had). Admittedly it was a guild group and we had a laugh in discord, but noone considered it a problem for me to dps as a priest in classic. I was hardly top dps but wasnt too terrible either and you know what..... it really didn't matter.

I realise that this is just a low level dungeon but I think most people will agree that the actual end game in Classic isnt "complex" - the most difficult part is getting geared up and getting 40 people together and work together. "non-viable" specs are not in the most really non-viable - just non-optimal. Non-optimal is actually "good enough" in most cases - so long as people work together.

Of course for that to happen.... yes as has been said... join a guild! It's not that likely that there will be much "pugging" of raids (unless guilds are too small!) so if you DO want to do any end game stuff - you will need to join a guild anyway.

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I bet you want raids with NPCs to run with ye?

Hey, I wouldn't want that in classic..... but outside? Personally I would say "why not". It works well (to a degree) in Shadowbringers but again that's only for certain story mode dungeons that cannot be skipped and prevents LOOOOOONG dps queues. I would say though that FF have introduced this kind of thing in a way that wont take over from other groups.

BTW, also I often find groups in FF that are friendly and talk and by far the most common way of doing dungeons in FF is via their version of dungeon finder. There are also significant rewards for queuing up for random dungeons - but that doesnt stop socialising. The issue we have in wow isnt just becuase of dungeon finder but something more fundamental imo.

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No, they are not. People can choose to use a Quest helper and it doesn't affect any other player, as where a mass amount of people using an LFG addon means that it would essentially become the primary way to find groups - that effects the player base as a whole, as not using the addon would essentially put you at a disadvantage.

However an addon that just groups together messages in LFR channel is a handy tool for those to see what groups are recruiting and allows them to whisper the party leader directly doesn't remove that chat from LFR channel so it give the best of both worlds imo. If I want to have an addon parse these messages for me so I don't have to stay glued to the channel chat - then great. If you dont want to have something parse these messages for you - then you can still sit there and watch the messages go by and do it that way. No-one looses out.

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Seems a pretty simple way to get your Add-on banned, and have those using it get their account banned also.


Genius.

As I understand it (and I may be wrong), initially this ad-don actually made groups - and performed auto invites etc. I have used this addon myself very recently and all it seems to do is allow you to see what groups are recruiting and then you have to whisper the party leader to ask if you can join. I can't see a problem with this - nothing is automated and you have to communicate still. As it seems to have been changed to work this way - then yes, I can't see a problem with it still working after the changes that are being made. I understand the changes are to stop the automated systems - this is no longer automated. No "banning" of account needed.

[Wingspan]

Conveniency is just bad. It makes people lazy. It also does in the real world.

People playing computer games should really not be throwing stones about other people being lazy.

Playing computer games requires less physical activity than golf (seriously, golf)... watching TV is about the only form of entertainment that requires less effort, and it’s not off by much.

Computer games are (by design) a lazy activity.



Ultimately, Classic is even lazier than Retail. Classic requires more effort initially (sure), but there is an end to the “work” phase of Classic, since after a point, you reach never need to re-gear. Not wanting to re-gear and keep progressing is as lazy as anything else that Retail might be blamed for.

[Kaver]

People playing computer games should really not be throwing stones about other people being lazy.

Playing computer games requires less physical activity than golf (seriously, golf)... watching TV is about the only form of entertainment that requires less effort, and it’s not off by much.

Computer games are (by design) a lazy activity.



Ultimately, Classic is even lazier than Retail. Classic requires more effort initially (sure), but there is an end to the “work” phase of Classic, since after a point, you reach never need to re-gear. Not wanting to re-gear and keep progressing is as lazy as anything else that Retail might be blamed for.

Classic requires a lot more social effort than Retail.

[Clozer]

Like most systems in Retail, LFG tools are too convenient. This makes people too picky, and leads to people getting rejected who were only slightly sub-optimal. I HAAAATE this part of retail. Anything less than perfect is ignored.

Yesterday, I assembled a group in LFG chat to get a quick group to do the first part of SFK (for a pally quest). We went in with 3 lvl20 ret pallies and a mage. Our comp was horribly sub-optimal and we only needed to reach the stables. We crushed the entire dungeon! This was my proudest moment in classic thusfar, and would never occur if we had LFG tools.

You were the group leader? So you could do the exact same thing on retail with a group finder tool. And i hardly doubt that anyone doing lfr is asking for any perfect comp at all. Classic has no challenging content, that requires it to be "picky", thats the whole reason you can do it with such trashy comps - this has nothing to do with the lfg tool.

[Einsz]

Like most systems in Retail, LFG tools are too convenient. This makes people too picky, and leads to people getting rejected who were only slightly sub-optimal. I HAAAATE this part of retail. Anything less than perfect is ignored.

You are wrong, 99% of groups atm only want mages and warriors or GTFO in classic on Firemaw LFG channel

[last1214]

Any iteration of a LFG add-on that blizzard is going to allow is going to be nothing better than a glorified chat filter. But I'm OK with that, so yeah they should allow it.

[Sastank]

If you think LFG addon isn't a bad idea, what else isn't a bad idea that went against "muh vanillaz experience" ? LFR maybe? No attunements? Maybe double the mob and quest XP? Why stop there? Just sell level 60 boosts.

[roboscorcher]

You were the group leader? So you could do the exact same thing on retail with a group finder tool.

If I was using an LFG tool, I would have waited 30 mins for a tank and healer, rather than us rets trying something new. It's a bit of a forced scenario, but I think it's a good one. It's the same thing with forced raid sizes. When a raid is forced to, say 25man, guilds will take noobs to fill slots. That may seem bad, but it was way more fun and inclusive than the elitist raid scene we see in retail. I miss having rookies in my raidgroups.

And i hardly doubt that anyone doing lfr is asking for any perfect comp at all.

Have you ever used the dungeon/raid group finder in retail? Raiding reqs: AotC, ilvl 9999, 8 years of experience. There is little room for rookies or casual players. It's a very non-inclusive place, and it wasn't always that way.

Classic has no challenging content, that requires it to be "picky", thats the whole reason you can do it with such trashy comps - this has nothing to do with the lfg tool.

Classic is definitely challenging. I would instead say that the hybrid class flexibility at low levels allowed us to pull it off, more than anything else.

The real thing I like is the chat. If you want to group, you actually need to converse a bit. The leader has to advertise his group. The applicant has to whisper back. These are minor social connections, but they matter IMO. I feel like I've chatted more to party members in 1 week of classic than I did for all of BfA.

[Clozer]

If I was using an LFG tool, I would have waited 30 mins for a tank and healer, rather than us rets trying something new. It's a bit of a forced scenario, but I think it's a good one. It's the same thing with forced raid sizes. When a raid is forced to, say 25man, guilds will take noobs to fill slots. That may seem bad, but it was way more fun and inclusive than the elitist raid scene we see in retail. I miss having rookies in my raidgroups.



Classic is definitely challenging. I would instead say that the hybrid class flexibility at low levels allowed us to pull it off, more than anything else.

The real thing I like is the chat. If you want to group, you actually need to converse a bit. The leader has to advertise his group. The applicant has to whisper back. These are minor social connections, but they matter IMO. I feel like I've chatted more to party members in 1 week of classic than I did for all of BfA.

All i do is spamming a macro - LFG X and wait for an invite, then do the same exact thing im doing on retail. If you decide to speak more thats your thing - you can do the exact same thing on retail but for some reason you decide not to.

Again if the content is so extremly ez that you could do it with 2 people who cares what 3 other guys you invite? But if you do content that's difficult you want to make it as easy as possible. All this has nothing to do with the lfg tool in place.

Just imagine searching for a m+15 in classic, do you really think you want to invite 3 rets to your group? See nothing to do with the tool.

[roboscorcher]

All i do is spamming a macro - LFG X and wait for an invite, then do the same exact thing im doing on retail. If you decide to speak more thats your thing - you can do the exact same thing on retail but for some reason you decide not to.

There's no reason to in retail, because instances are just a chore that you grind away on.

Again if the content is so extremly ez that you could do it with 2 people who cares what 3 other guys you invite?

4manning SFK wasn't easy for us. We had to all alternate roles: tanking, healing, damage. And it was awesome, breaking the rules of 'holy trinity.'

But if you do content that's difficult you want to make it as easy as possible. All this has nothing to do with the lfg tool in place.

LFG tools make it too easy to be picky, IMO. Too much data/credentials involved. Most people are capable of doing WoW content regardless of their acheivements, but LFG has increased everyone's expectations and lowered their patience. It's toxic to pay with strangers if you're not 100% knowledgeable.

Just imagine searching for a m+15 in classic, do you really think you want to invite 3 rets to your group? See nothing to do with the tool.

That's EXACTLY the mentality I hate, and it has a lot to do with the tool. Retail is way too restrictive and formulaic to have fun in dungeons. You need to have x y and z to progress. Why did it get this way? Because dungeon tools made it too easy to spam dungeons, and the playerbase needed a challenge to maintain interest. I get why hardcore players enjoy it, but I stopped bothering with M+ long ago. I like Classic because there is only 1 version of a dungeon.

[Nebron]

Actually the reduction in socialising in wow came about by a combination of multiple events, one of which was the use of a cross realm dungeon finder (not the actual system to find groups - but the fact that it was cross realm therefore meaning you didnt need to worry about reputation).

Other things that made this worse however are things like Emblems that were introduced in TBC. People stopped running dungeons for just the sake of running them - or even just running them for the gear that dropped in that dungeon - but for the abstract emblems that dropped all over thus making dungeon grinding a thing that didnt even matter what dungeon you were doing. You didn't care for the content (or the group).

I only mention this because it is far too easy to blame LFG. While I agree that it had a hand in it - it was not the only thing. BTW, I am myself a big fan of LFG and LFR although I CAN see some of the detrimental effects they have had. Personally I think the benefits outweigh the detraction but I totally understand that not everyone shares my view.

LFG in Classic? Certainly not cross realm.... ever. The current addon that simply allows people to list the groups they want to make? Sure, why not. You look, see a group, whisper the leader and ask if you can join..... its no different to just checking in chat but it means you dont have to worry about missing messages. Yes its a QOL thing - but imo it hurts noone. Now if it starts doing automated matchmaking.... thats another thing and that has no place in Classic.

Oh, yeah. 100% agree. I oversimplfied it for the sake of this particular argument, that LFG made WoW less social. But surely, there are tons of other thing. Even making this game easier - and I would even say that it had the biggest impact on social aspect.

[Clozer]

There's no reason to in retail, because instances are just a chore that you grind away on.




4manning SFK wasn't easy for us. We had to all alternate roles: tanking, healing, damage. And it was awesome, breaking the rules of 'holy trinity.'




LFG tools make it too easy to be picky, IMO. Too much data/credentials involved. Most people are capable of doing WoW content regardless of their acheivements, but LFG has increased everyone's expectations and lowered their patience. It's toxic to pay with strangers if you're not 100% knowledgeable.



That's EXACTLY the mentality I hate, and it has a lot to do with the tool. Retail is way too restrictive and formulaic to have fun in dungeons. You need to have x y and z to progress. Why did it get this way? Because dungeon tools made it too easy to spam dungeons, and the playerbase needed a challenge to maintain interest. I get why hardcore players enjoy it, but I stopped bothering with M+ long ago. I like Classic because there is only 1 version of a dungeon.

So you just want an ez game, where it is for you reasonable to achieve everything with any bob. It's fine - looking at classic numbers a lot of people enjoy this super relaxed non challenging environment and just play a mmorpg with their friends. But to blame a tool for something that has nothing to do with any of this is stupid.

[SirCowdog]

Any iteration of a LFG add-on that blizzard is going to allow is going to be nothing better than a glorified chat filter. But I'm OK with that, so yeah they should allow it.

That's basically all anyone is asking for.

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If you think LFG addon isn't a bad idea, what else isn't a bad idea that went against "muh vanillaz experience" ? LFR maybe? No attunements? Maybe double the mob and quest XP? Why stop there? Just sell level 60 boosts.

And why aren't all the vanilla purist looking for a "Vanilla Experience" going ape on Blizzard about things like the debuff limit? Oh, that's right. Because they're benefiting from it.

Not to mention that no one in this thread is asking for the removal of attunements or LFR or more experience. You're attempting to add things to the argument that no one has said, and associate bad aspects with legitimate arguments.

[Wingspan]

Classic requires a lot more social effort than Retail.

Flapping your gums is not known for requiring a high level of effort... unless maybe you use an oxygen tank or something (to which, if you do, you probably should not be playing computer games due the excitement levels).

[SirCowdog]

LFG tools make it too easy to be picky, IMO. Too much data/credentials involved. Most people are capable of doing WoW content regardless of their acheivements, but LFG has increased everyone's expectations and lowered their patience. It's toxic to pay with strangers if you're not 100% knowledgeable.

How is this practically different than sifting through a global channel where people are spamming for groups? You're confusing the source of the elitism. It isn't created by a LFG tool. It doesn't increase how often people are elitist, or increase the likelihood of it.

You say it's made easier by using an addon to filter as though people aren't going to ignore spam messages too. So the real question is: Does forcing people to spam into a channel PREVENT or even mitigate the elitism? I highly doubt it, but it's something I'd like to hear so discussion on.

Because I believe the elitism and focus on the meta has its source in the overall community of WoW, not in any group-making addon. People who are going to to follow the meta will do so because more information is readily available outside of the game. Information flows much more easily through message boards like reddit, youtube, twitch, etc. And it's largely due to the very real lack of any kind of balance in Vanilla between classes.

Blaming a group-forming addon for this is, in my opinion, the wrong approach because it doesn't actually address the core issue in any meaningful way. It's certainly easy to kill the messenger, figuratively speaking, because it's the first thing you see. But I think that the anger is badly misplaced in this situation.

That's EXACTLY the mentality I hate, and it has a lot to do with the tool. Retail is way too restrictive and formulaic to have fun in dungeons. You need to have x y and z to progress. Why did it get this way?

I'm not sure if you're remembering things the way they were. Resto or GTFO. War tank or GTFO. Ret paladins and enh shammies literally couldn't get groups without begging guildies to carry them. Prot pallies basically didn't exist until the TBC pre-patch. Etc.

The kind of meta you see in retail STARTED in Vanilla. Maybe a tool makes it a bit more apparent, but I'd say that's only because it filters out the non-group spam from trade chat. Again, that doesn't mean the filter is the cause of the problem, just that it's easier to blame it because it where you SEE the effects of the problem.

[SkagenRora]

Diden't people already clear MC and Ony?

Within one year we will all probably be max T3 gear and then a LFG addon Won't matter

[StrawberryZebra]

So if I'm understanding what you're saying here, your argument is essentially 'if you already have friends, you can never make new friends'. I'm not sure I even need to add anything here tbh. That's ridiculous.

That was my summary of what @Kaver said. And I agree, the position is completely ridiculous.

You're meant to socially interact with people while leveling. You're meant to communicate in other scenarios than just finding a group. You're meant to build up a nice friend list while travelling through the world. You're meant to join a nice guild and do activities with them. You don't need Dungeons to be social.

Then what happens when you hit level 60? No more leveling would mean no more opportunities to socialise. Outside of finding a group, the only real times you'd talk to people would be when you're either using a Chat channel to have a conversation, or when you're trading items. Neither of those really lead into the kind of conversation that would end with you inviting said person to Stratholme.

On a more practical level what if you simply want to do UBRS and no one is available? Your options would either be to wait for your guild to be online, or else pug it. What if your "nice guild" are players who also don't group with people outside the guild? It would quickly begin to stagnate and eventually decline. That's not a guild that would be around for the long haul.

Your idea of what you think the game should be is harmful to the community you're ultimately advocating for. It leads to fractured, disjointed communites and players who aren't already in a social circle to simply fall through the cracks and have no means to progress beyond hitting level cap. That is not a healthy or functional state for an MMO to exist in.

[chrisnumbers]

LFG already exists in the LookingForGroup channel. People use it to look for groups. An addon to do the same thing is a waste.

[Kaver]

Flapping your gums is not known for requiring a high level of effort... unless maybe you use an oxygen tank or something (to which, if you do, you probably should not be playing computer games due the excitement levels).

What I mean by social effort, is that you’re more required to interact with other players on a regular basis because you don’t the same conveniency tools as in retail. Your experience in the game is more based on social interaction than retail.