Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Raelbo]

Yes I'm telling them not to play if them playing and getting w/e stupid shit they want will ruin the game as it HAS.

No it hasn't ruined anything. lol.

I mean, you STILL can't substantiate why. But hey, if you keep repeating the same nonsense maybe you'll win this argument

It upvalues shit. Raiding means shit unless its mythic because of special needs diff like LFR.

I gave reason. Yet you seem to believe that simply refuting without any reason of your own somehow counts for something. Ok, fair enough, it does count for something. It tells everyone that you have no reasoning - just stubborn insistence.

[Zyrinx]

I did it when there were Tier sets to chase, now that there aren't, I haven't done it.

But I'm not against it existing - I just don't care. Also as has been said you can EASILY VASTLY outgear LFR with WQs and Benthics, so I guess it is truly story-mode at this point.

People using LFR as a catch-up mechanism are seriously doing it wrong.

[damonskye]

Good news for me, then. Classic doesn't have LFR. They actually gave me a completely different game to play that will never have an LFR. They gave you LFR, they gave me an entire game without it. #winning

Great. Glad you're happy. Have fun in classic.

Specifically, have fun trolling city chat for hours trying to get 5 people for a dungeon, much less 40 people for a dedicated raid.

I remember classic when it was Warcraft. The game is definitely better today.

[Raelbo]

LFR falls into the welfare category and is used as catchup, effectively skipping/trivializing/invalidating the previous content. LFR is part of why "Content Drought" is so prominent.

Demonstrably False (that aside from the fact that you couldn't even be bothered to substantiate yet another questionable claim)

As many have already said, there are far more effective catch up mechanisms than LFR. Take AEP for example: The catch up mechanism was Benthic gear, which is significantly better than LFR gear. LFR hadn't even opened by the time Normal and Heroic opened. On top of that there are WQs, heroic 5 mans and mythic 5 mans, all of which are going to give significantly more gear than LFR.

I hate welfare and content invalidation, therefore I must also hate LFR.

Dude, you until you can come up with an argument to support the notion that LFR = content invalidation (so far you have failed utterly) you don't get to make that claim.

These type of problems are bad for player retention (content longevity) as well as sub satisfaction (no sense of reward and welfare as a whole = time/effort devaluation)

Dude, the problem with your argument is that it lacks any kind of substantiation. It's not short on wild allegations and silly assertions, so really, adding more to the mix is just telling us that you fundamentally lack an actual argument....

Here, this might help: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toulmin_method. It's a brief overview of the necessary components for constructing a logical argument, of which you're basically missing 80%...

[Black Goat]

Great. Glad you're happy. Have fun in classic.

Specifically, have fun trolling city chat for hours trying to get 5 people for a dungeon, much less 40 people for a dedicated raid.

I remember classic when it was Warcraft. The game is definitely better today.

I remember how much better the game used to be before participation events like LFR. I'm glad they recognized that fact and are applying resources to it.

[Raelbo]

I remember how much better the game used to be before participation events like LFR. I'm glad they recognized that fact and are applying resources to it.

Lol. Blizzard didn't give us Classic on the basis that they recognised that it the game was better back then. They gave us Classic because:
1) they recognised how passionately some people felt about it and that giving us Classic would go a long way towards earning player loyalty
2) they needed to protect their IP from pirate servers and Classic was necessary to achieve this
3) there was an opportunity to make money from it by bringing in more subs

I am not saying there is anything wrong with Classic even, simply that their motives are pretty transparent and obvious and not what you're claiming.

Just to back up my claim, here is what J Allen Brack had to say when announcing Classic:

"And I want to talk about...ice cream.

Ice cream is great. Ice cream is one of my favourite desserts.

Personally, I like chocolate, and I love cookies and cream. Cookies and cream is actually my all time favourite dessert. But I understand that for some of you, your favourite flavour is Vanilla."

It's pretty clear that while he personally thinks that Live is superior, he accepts that some people prefer Classic.

[mvaliz]

MMORPG give players a choice of style to play meaning you either do the raids properly or go fuck yourself.

Eh? Dude, difficulty modes in things have existed since the dawn of gaming.

Why is it suddenly bad now? Not 4 expansions ago?? o_O

The massive number or players prefering something without lfr in it and the devs saying yes it was a mistake.

When did the Devs say that? I remember them saying quite the opposite, with the quote being something like "We made things harder from Wrath to Cataclysm, expecting the players to step up. The reality is they didn't, they simply went and played something else."

If anything, MORE players are playing WoW right now because of LFR. If LFR wasn't in the game, you'd likely have 1/3 of the population gone and you'd be screaming here instead about how "XYZ is bad" Because it drove off players.

[CrawlFromThePit]

this sums up everything pretty well, but the lfr community will not admit it and defend LFR until the last breath

Understandably so. They love something and don't want to lose it, can't blame them.

[SirBeef]

the numbers would suggest otherwise, as the subs dropped since LFG was added.

LFG was added in 3.3, subs rose by 500K afterwards.

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm not ranting at all. I think you're really confused about what's being discussed here. You seem... angry.

Good news for me, then. Classic doesn't have LFR. They actually gave me a completely different game to play that will never have an LFR. They gave you LFR, they gave me an entire game without it. #winning

- - - Updated - - -



No, the game is actually catering to entitled children by giving them participation events and easier classes to play. You have it backwards, but it's my pleasure to correct you. You feel entitled to have the feature in the game, and I think it simply made the game and its players worse by and large. Sure, it helped a few raiders and guilds. But it spoiled so many others, and the environment in an LFR is toxic beyond belief. People know they can just AFK or outright wipe the boss to troll the other people with little or no consequence. And this behavior extends with those individuals into higher difficulties.

There's no entitlement in my perspective of LFR whatsoever. I would call it disdain.

The community was toxic as fuck well before LFR. LFR is just a convenient target to blame everything on. Most of the people bitch about LFR because it somehow invalidates harder raid difficulties. That's why it entitlement. You're expecting people to be forced to play the game the way YOU play it. As for your other points, it's only once in a blue moon that I see trolls in LFR and they are typically immediately kicked from the raid.

[Raelbo]

Understandably so. They love something and don't want to lose it, can't blame them.

Except that a significant number of people "defending" LFR (myself included) aren't even people who even care that much about LFR. One doesn't have to be invested in LFR to recognise his arguments as baseless and puerile.

[Schizoide]

For you, people who can't otherwise see raids, probably have it fun for couple of runs.

I have friends that don't raid, they do LFR once per tier just to see the content, but they really don't enjoy it. So, a net positive? Sure, I guess. But it's not great.

[TheRevenantHero]

false, both dragon soul's pathetic difficulty and the scaling raid-wide debuff since ICC show that the raids were altered to appeal to the vocal minority.
the week2 nerffing of cata heroics is another prime example due to it being a knee-jerk reaction to complaints by people who only got into said heroics through LFG.

People who wanted the content to be more accessable were absolutely a majority. Before these changes, only about 5-10% of the game population actually ever got to see the raids.

[Raelbo]

the numbers would suggest otherwise, as the subs dropped since LFG was added.

Correlation vs Causation fallacy.

You have no idea what the subscription numbers would have looked like without LFR, although an informed guess would estimate it to be significantly lower than it is today.

In the very least, looking at known subscriber numbers from the time, and Blizzard's statement that over 100M people have played WoW, it follows that at least 90M players in the period 2004-2014. That means that 90% of the people that joined the game in that period quit.

Furthermore, given that the number of new players joining WoW has been known since at least the end of WotLK to be small compared to the number of incumbent players, anyone with any kind of mathematical aptitude can plainly see that the rate of player loss has reduced significantly as WoW has matured. But yeah, I get that for someone who isn't inclined to bother with proper analysis that it might appear otherwise.

- - - Updated - - -

I have friends that don't raid, they do LFR once per tier just to see the content, but they really don't enjoy it. So, a net positive? Sure, I guess. But it's not great.

I'd give it a rating of 3.6 Roentgen. Not great, not terrible

[Kathandira]

LFR Haters are just as much of snowflakes as those they rally against. They want to be the special ones in raid costumes. They want to be the special ones with content only available to them.

[tyrlaan]

I don't care if you don't buy it. At the end of the day it's what it did to the game. You're free to believe something different from reality, changes nothing in my life.

If you claim it's reality, than you need evidence to back it up. Otherwise there's no justifiable way to claim your belief is anything but personal fiction.

People who wanted the content to be more accessable were absolutely a majority. Before these changes, only about 5-10% of the game population actually ever got to see the raids.

Exactly. Which is why I'll call bullshit on people that act like LFR took away people in any appreciable amount from the rest of the raiding scene.

[Elias01]

Every single word. To me, it seems you are the one who entirely ignored my post.



No, doing a LFR takes less time and commitment than a normal guild raid. And if you want to see how the adventure's story end you have no option whatsoever. Also, during the wait time you can do other things, and if things go wrong in LFR (say, for example, the tank is really bad) you can leave at any moment, unlike in a guild run. Sorry, but that argument IS still relevant.



You raid difficult doesn't mean less. You have better gear (both in stats and looks), you have achievements that other people don't have, you have the personal satisfaction of doing a much much difficult version of the game. Also, in case you are a mythic raider (which I doubt), you have seen exlusive phases of those bosses that other players have not.

Only Ghostcrawler said he regreted LFR, and said it after not working in the game anymore and also admited to not have played WoW in a decade. I don't think his opinion is valid. And if you think people leave the game because LFR exists... maybe those people are straight up socyopaths and is better they are not here anymore.

The decline in players is expected in a 15 years old game, specially when online gaming is so popular nowadays and WoW faces sever competition in other fields.

If I manage to beat a game on its higher difficult, should I feel angry because some people do it on a lower one? Talk about ego here. Also That was completely uncalled for. Mind your manners, please.

I have quit top raiding and retail becouse of lfg and lfr. I am no sociopat and having blast playing with boys on classic. How can game what is far less acessible be far more sucesfull than anything Blizzard has released since TBC? Hmmm? It completly dominated twitch. More than 1 week and we still getting queues after several new realms opening.

LFR devalued raiding. It lost its epicnes. There is this false statement thay casuals somehow want and need high end gear and sucesfully clear every single raid. It is absolute nonsense. Casual players do not want it. It is just vocal minority crying coz gimi gimi attitude.

[KaPe]

Exactly. Which is why I'll call bullshit on people that act like LFR took away people in any appreciable amount from the rest of the raiding scene.

I mean, technically, it might have - in the sense that in the world without LFR, people would first join a raid, see that requires a ton of time, effort, preparation and dealing with large group of other players for prolonged time... and promptly said "screw that".

With LFR, they simply stick to that difficulty. End result is roughly the same. Sure, maybe, theoretically there are some amazing players that could have become mythic raiders if only LFR didn't exist... but it's just as likely as someone going to LFR and then deciding that they want more challenge.

LFR devalued raiding. It lost its epicnes. There is this false statement thay casuals somehow want and need high end gear and sucesfully clear every single raid. It is absolute nonsense. Casual players do not want it. It is just vocal minority crying coz gimi gimi attitude.

We have just seen the "epicness" of Ragnaros kill on Classic. Any random mythic boss is far more epic and challenging than that, Champions of Light included. The "epicness" is there for those who desire it, while offering everyone else training mode with gimped enemies. If you don't feel that Cutting Edge - or Top100 title - is worth it, that's your problem.

[Twdft]

In my book, "seeing LFR once and never stepping inside there again" is not a success...

It is for the accountants who see the giant cost in development raids require. Organized raiding is and always will be a niche activity and if a bean counter sees 10% of players participating they cut the funds. Only through LfR which is seen by more than 50% of players do we even have raids anymore.

I personally don't see downsides by having 4 instead of 3 difficulties in the game, I entirely ignore 3 of them. Whatever you feel a downside to LfR I guess you rather put up with it when the alternative were as much development going into raids as say into pet battles.

[Elias01]

People who wanted the content to be more accessable were absolutely a majority. Before these changes, only about 5-10% of the game population actually ever got to see the raids.

Yes they wanted it. Doesnt men it is good system. You know. When you desing game you cant think abouy game as player. Becouse you will start doing changes what are good for the players and no whay is good for the game.

Casuals were absolutly ok with no getting to see every single raid. They got what theu got and sense of acomplishment was huge. In momeny they made this easy mod casuals just press button, clear content and quit. There wasnt any sense of progression or acomplishment.