Remember Lady Liadrin?

[Feanoro]

But they decided to play the victim card when the sunreavers got kicked out for purposely ignoring the mana bomb being smuggled through Dalaran despite it being a semi-neutral city at the time. Proving that they'll be willing to let people die if it doesn't affect them or their precious Sunwell (junkies I swear).

Oh you mean like how Slyvanas decided to burn down Teldrassil instead of capturing it like she originally planned because of the tantrum she threw over some random Nelf talking shit? Literally, how is their situation different? Both committed genocide and destroyed the homeland(s) of elves.

Sylvanas went to war because she thought that Anduin wouldn't have the stones to fight back, don't try to flip the situation. With Anduin ruling, there was no better time for peace between the alliance and the horde and he's STILL actively trying to achieve it. Trying to say Anduin's alliance is a threat to anyone is entirely delusional.

I guess you're right... the nelves are totally in the wrong for exiling the Belves for practicing magic that sped up the legion's arrival and threatened their way of life and literally caused a fucking apocalypse... oh wait... (Void Elf situation ringing any bells?)

It's ok when Horde does it, don't you know?

[Soon-TM]

<snip>

That's all fine and dandy, but what I meant is that on one hand, you cannot apply 20th century standards to warfare, and on the other hand ancient Rome (which was far, FAR from being a democratic government in today's understanding), medieval or even 19th century standards to governance and general population's rights - all in the same breath. Because while it's true that prior to Geneva there were mild attempts to establish a "ruleset" of sorts for war, the very concept of a war crime wasn't established until then. Not that it means a lot anyway, but that's another matter, I guess...

As for your last question, the answer is no, same for the burning of Teldrassil. But such were the things happening at the time, even as of mid-19th century, when even the "most civilized" country at the time massacred hundreds of thousands of civilians and lay waste to a major city(https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indian...and_atrocities) as an act of retaliation, without nobody (in Europe/NA, that is) even batting an eye.

In short, I'm fucking tired of double standards everywhere.

[Feanoro]

Spin, politics, argumentation, debate, optics, position, platform, or opinion.

Assuming that the truth is entirely binary is rather simplistic when dealing with the complexity of political realities.

All fancy ways of saying "lie", intentional or not.

[Florena]

I mostly found it kind of funny that in WOD she was wanting to repay her debt to the Draenei. But...to an alternate timeline's draenei who didn't actually help her people in any way. And then her laughably biased account of night elves vs blood elves when recruiting the nightborne.

[Aucald]

All fancy ways of saying "lie", intentional or not.

Not really, no. Liadrin may well honestly believe what she's telling Thalyssra is the truth - convinced either by Lor'themar's propaganda or her own experiences (limited as they are by her worldview and perceptions). If she's telling Thalyssra the truth insofar as she is aware of it, is she lying? Is her intent to deceive? We can't really know that, but to assume it would be speaking to our own inherent biases - about whether or not we trust her word because of who or what she is. Objective truth is rare in the realm of personal opinion and contested arguments - largely it hinges upon what one believes to be true.

[Soon-TM]

Irl it would be a war crime.

Even in medieval times since the council of elne-toulouges in 1027 there has been protection for some non-combatants in war, a cstagory that was extended over time through the the 16th century.

Ofc the only reprocusion of breaking this chivalric rules of War was social and spiritual but still under our own real worlds medieval rules of war liadrin would have to prove that taking out that non combatant was nessesary to the conduct of the war to remain spiritually pure.

Orly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Béziers

Tell me more about how that worked.

[Mehrunes]

But they decided to play the victim card when the sunreavers got kicked out for purposely ignoring the mana bomb being smuggled through Dalaran despite it being a semi-neutral city at the time. Proving that they'll be willing to let people die if it doesn't affect them or their precious Sunwell (junkies I swear).

The only one who turned a blind eye was Aethas because he's the only one who walked in on it. And he didn't do it because "it didn't affect them" but because he was threatened with the prospect of Garrosh punishing his entire race if he tried anything. Also, Dalaran wasn't a semi-neutral city at the time as Jaina already broke Dalaran's neutrality by aiding the Alliance prior to the theft of the Divine Bell.

Oh you mean like how Slyvanas decided to burn down Teldrassil instead of capturing it like she originally planned because of the tantrum she threw over some random Nelf talking shit? Literally, how is their situation different? Both committed genocide and destroyed the homeland(s) of elves.

People are still peddling that nonsense? A Good War is over a year old by now.

Sylvanas went to war because she thought that Anduin wouldn't have the stones to fight back, don't try to flip the situation. With Anduin ruling, there was no better time for peace between the alliance and the horde and he's STILL actively trying to achieve it. Trying to say Anduin's alliance is a threat to anyone is entirely delusional.

Do remind me who was the High King when Alliance attacked the Horde out of the blue in Stormheim despite an ongoing Legion invasion. Oh, would you look at that, it was Anduin. Because he can't keep his people in check. Which is precisely what Sylvanas' argument about Alliance being a threat is all about, which you'd know if you actually informed yourself about the topic you're trying to discuss.

I guess you're right... the nelves are totally in the wrong for exiling the Belves for practicing magic that sped up the legion's arrival and threatened their way of life and literally caused a fucking apocalypse... oh wait... (Void Elf situation ringing any bells?)

Except Quel'Thalas was built on safe usage of magic with Thlassians warding their entire nation, removing the threat of the Legion noticing them. And Void Elf situation does ring some bells but I'm not sure why you'd mention it when it does you no favors. Because Umbric's posse were reckless morons who almost turned into unholy abominations and were saved only by Alleria conveniently strolling by at the same exact moment.

[Soon-TM]

All fancy ways of saying "lie", intentional or not.

The paladin ways are at times the ultimate "end justifies the means" approach, as seen by the Scarlet Crusade/Onslaught paladins, or the Lightbound ones... or even blood knights nowadays.

[Mehrunes]

It's ok when Horde does it, don't you know?

Way to jump on the bandwagon of a post that was wrong in regards to every single paragraph just because it was anti-Horde and made you think it's consequently a good platform to place your salty straw-man on.

[valky94]

Murdering an enemy healer, while cruel, may be necessary in times of war.

this is what snipers did during world war 2, they would wound soldiers instead of killing them, so medics would come to help and then kill the medics

[Mehrunes]

Orly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Béziers

Tell me more about how that worked.

Which raises a point on how humans in those times may have cared on occasion, but when the enemy was of the wrong religion, race, ethnicity or whatever else, that care quickly dissipated. And wasn't even a factor to begin with when different groups of "wrong" people were fighting each other. Who in Europe cared about what Ilkhanate did during the sacking of Baghdad? Who in Europe cared when Timur was rampaging across the Muslim world? Who in the Muslim world cared when crusaders sacked Constantinople (they probably laughed about that one because it was fucking idiotic)? Now think of Warcraft where the differences go beyond any of that because the sides to the conflict are literally different species and try transplant humans caring about such things during some events in history even during the more relevant periods...

[Monster Hunter]

Orly? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massacre_at_Béziers

Tell me more about how that worked.

No shit people broke the rules, still do today. Plenty of cases still ongoing now about Iraq and anfganistan crimes committed and Northern Ireland.

Just because stuff happend dosnt mean it was seen as acceptable. I mean fuck one the first instance of War crime sanctions was when the pope excommunicated England for while after executing French pow's.

[Rozz]

Lets steer away from IRL politics, please.

[Soon-TM]

No shit people broke the rules, still do today. Plenty of cases still ongoing now about Iraq and anfganistan crimes committed and Northern Ireland.

Just because stuff happend dosnt mean it was seen as acceptable. I mean fuck one the first instance of War crime sanctions was when the pope excommunicated England for while after executing French pow's.

If neither there was nor there is a punishment enforced by the supposed "good guys", then it becomes effectively acceptable, end of story - as disgusting and depressing it can be.

[Kithelle]

Hey guys I was just chilling out, playing classic and getting up to date on my lore up to retail.

Remember Lady Liadrin? She was pretty great. Devout, heroic and utterly concentrated on the destruction of the scourge and later the Legion. Bright and focused on unity, and passionate about the light. That lady that was pretty fully redeemed, focused on teaching her people to embrace the light?

That neat lady who, in the Warlords of Draenor, worked with the Exarchs of Auchenai to help defend Auchindon and helped kill some pit lords and defend Shattrath? Who in the legion, joined the Knights of the Silver Hand and serves as the last line of defense against the death knights trying to steal the body of Tiron Fordring?

So yeah apparently in BFA, she orders horde adventurers to murder a non-combative Mistweaver who is in charge of a field hospital that is only there to treat severely wounded Kul Tiran civilians. Its not even a military target, she just randomly orders people to go murder a doctor treating civvies.

top notch

Welcome to Sylvanas' Horde!

[Verdugo]

Ofc the only reprocusion of breaking this chivalric rules of War was social and spiritual but still under our own real worlds medieval rules of war liadrin would have to prove that taking out that non combatant was nessesary to the conduct of the war to remain spiritually pure.

Can she channel light?
Yes.
She is spiritualy pure. Anyone who disagrees is a heretic.

[Soon-TM]

this is what snipers did during world war 2, they would wound soldiers instead of killing them, so medics would come to help and then kill the medics

And it was considered a perfectly legit military tactic.

[Infraction] - There was a thread warning above not to continue this topic. We do not need discussion over the legitimacy of irl war acts.

[Ielenia]

Murdering an enemy healer, while cruel, may be necessary in times of war.

It's still very out of character for someone who spouts her devotion to the Light at every opportunity. That's like Tirion Fordring murdering a child because it could become a tyrant. Or... the embodiment of hope, Luke Skywalker, killing a padawan just because he had a vision of him turning evil.

My main problem with Liadrin in BFA is that she accepts Sylvanas as her leader, and is willing to send her Paladins into war against the Night Elves FOR NO REASON but to snuff out life and hope. All in the name of an undead maniac who hates anything that is good and pure.

That too. But Lady Liadrin's "descent" began right before BfA went live, with the Nightborne recruitment scenario, when a character that was, until now, "righteous and pure", openly lies to the nightborne by saying that it was the blood elves that fought against the tyranny of the Burning Legion "while night elves cowered and slept in their trees".

[valky94]

And it was considered a perfectly legit military tactic.

yep /10char

[Feanoro]

Way to jump on the bandwagon of a post that was wrong in regards to every single paragraph just because it was anti-Horde and made you think it's consequently a good platform to place your salty straw-man on.

I'm terribly sorry you don't like the "It's ok when Alliance does it" bullshit being used against the Horde. Also, I'm terribly sorry that you can't understand anything that's not literal.