Can we all now agree that Vanilla wasn't harder?

[Leronas]

As I said. That only applies to the first 20 levels or so. After that you are able to pull larger packs of mobs.

Uhm, no. That largely depends on the class you are playing, what kind of content you are doing and many more circumstances.

[Absalomm]

Because people can't just enjoy something. They need to believe it's objectively superior to everything else, and to put down people for liking those other things, to feel good about themselves.

Get a life, be good at school, find a girl, make a family, score a dream job, win a fucking lotery! Doing forums in order to fill accomplished is just sad.

[Leronas]

I came from Everquest lass. Nothing in Wow was or ever will be 'hard' in comparison.

This is a common thing, to say "nothing was ever hard". Someone will one up you and say that Everquest was never hard either.

[Xar226]

Ive not read of anyone saying vanilla was harder, they might say its more time consuming and harder int he sense it requires more commitment.

Nobody said it was actually harder, most people on classic forums expected rag to die by week 2 max, and everyone knew dungeons would be easy.

I dont understand why people like you keep posting stuff like this

So you read none of the responses above you in this very thread before posting? Because there are literally multiple examples just above you.

Classic is "harder" like turning up a video game's difficulty level where suddenly everything hits harder, not harder in a way that requires more skill because there really is no skill involved. Combat design is really shallow. You either play a class who can pull a little more aggressively or you play one who has to face-tank mobs, and if you're the latter you pull slowly because you have to. I think it's fair to call that harder, but not in a way that I find to be any fun.

[deenman]

I came from Everquest lass. Nothing in Wow was or ever will be 'hard' in comparison.

mecanicaly not even close

[Synbios]

Actually it's not a big surprise that Classic is significantly easier than it was back then because of the patch, which brings highly revised itemisation and talents vs. release.

Amongst other factors, our understanding of the game (in terms of classes mechanics and stats to look for) is 100 times better now and strategies for the encounters are well known.

All of this adds up to Classic being much easier than it was back then. This was all very predictable and it's a design mistake to have opted to keep the status quo. The early raids and all dungeons should have been up-tuned before release to account for these changes.

Mechanics in Classic were never that difficult, but the tuning was typically pretty harsh and now it's not. The good news is all these changes should have less of an impact on the later raids.

[Seranthor]

This is a common thing, to say "nothing was ever hard". Someone will one up you and say that Everquest was never hard either.

Certainly someone can come along and say EQ wasn't hard to them and point out their experiences... 'hard' is a relative term... its based on our experiences... If Wow is the 'hardest' thing you know then of course you are going to say it was 'hard'... If you have other experiences that were more difficult then you aren't going to see Wow as 'hard'... and that is the way it is.

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mecanicaly not even close

Bless your heart... you are trying to frame your opinion as a fact... No amount of voodoo or dancing around or parsing of words is going to change my opinion.

[oxandrolone]

I might be wrong, but I recall CCing becoming a big part of the game in BC.

[crewskater]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

It's not harder but it's less casual than retail.

[Leronas]

Certainly someone can come along and say EQ wasn't hard to them and point out their experiences... 'hard' is a relative term... its based on our experiences... If Wow is the 'hardest' thing you know then of course you are going to say it was 'hard'... If you have other experiences that were more difficult then you aren't going to see Wow as 'hard'... and that is the way it is.

Just because there are games that are harder than Vanilla WoW, doesn't make Vanilla WoW not hard. WoW is not the hardest game I have ever played. There are many games I have played that I would consider harder. It won't change that Vanilla WoW is hard.

Otherwise only the hardest game that exists would be worthy of being called hard, and even the game coming in 2nd would therefore not be worthy of being called hard.

Also we are talking about Vanilla WoW as in comparison to current WoW, so games like Everquest just don't matter. "Everquest was harder" is not an argument. The people making that kind of argument are probably the one with the worst skills in playing WoW.

The whole "x was harder" comment is just a thinly veiled attempt at positioning yourself as a guy with skill, because you know this other things, you've played this other thing, this other thing was hard, therefore you are good at playing these kind of games, because you played such a hard game. Nice try, tryhard.

[CostinR]

Are we comparing harder as in only to the level of Mythic+ Dungeons or Mythic raids?

Yeah sure, no shit sherlock, but that doesn't matter. On retail the game, outside of those instances, is a boring snooze fest that you can describe easily by "You press a button something awesome has to happen". You're on a power trip leveling and through the vast majority of the game with zero effort required to do it, you cannot describe Vanilla or Classic in those terms. You're average 5 man may not require the same level as a mythic+ dungeon but it sure as hell beats out everything outside of that.

That's what people don't get. It doesn't matter what difficulty is in some parts of retail if the rest of it is a boring joke.

[Guzrud]

It was harder. And Classic isn't TRULY the Vanilla experience. Well.... maybe leveling it is.

Here is my argument why.

1. You are playing the game at 1.12, which is VERY different in terms of power creep than launch to 1.10. They had done sweeping balance changes throughout the course of prior patches and spent time re-doing all of the classes. Pretty much each class had a re-tool, almost one per patch prior to 1.12. And by the time 1.12 hit, they had also balanced the stats, which made much of the game easier by comparison. At 1.12, your mana and health regen at a colossally faster rate than prior out of combat.

2. Raids were new to all of us, we were different players. There wasn't really anything much outside of WoW like it. And the debuffs and boss fights were basically just DPS checks each time with very little complicated mechanics. So, combine that with the earlier patches and yes... those raids were a LOT harder than they are now.

Most peoples memories are also rose-coloured glasses.

You are confusing the proficiency of players to the difficulty of content which makes no sense. Just because people are bad at something does not make it hard. This “difficulty” that so many people have claimed largely is due to resources, players, and information available to everyone.

The true fact of the matter is that the raid encounters now are vastly more difficult and complex. Classes are vastly more complex. Perfect example is how many classes just spam 1 button and that is a rotation?

The reality is that it was a different thing time and players have just gotten better at the game in general with information and resources that are available. When you look at a classic Rag kill and compare that to say the version of Mythic KJ that Method killed in 500+ pulls its not even really a discussion.

The game progressed and players did with it. Anyone who honestly thinks that vanilla wow raids were as hard as current content has most likely not done really high end raiding in the current season retail game.

This is not a slight on the true vanilla experience. I just think that too many people look back at what they perceive as difficulty when it was anything but.

[Seranthor]

Just because there are games that are harder than Vanilla WoW, doesn't make Vanilla WoW not hard. WoW is not the hardest game I have ever played. There are many games I have played that I would consider harder. It won't change that Vanilla WoW is hard.

Otherwise only the hardest game that exists would be worthy of being called hard, and even the game coming in 2nd would therefore not be worthy of being called hard.

Also we are talking about Vanilla WoW as in comparison to current WoW, so games like Everquest just don't matter. "Everquest was harder" is not an argument. The people making that kind of argument are probably the one with the worst skills in playing WoW.

Is this your attempt to convince me that vanilla was 'hard'? 'cause its not working on me. Maybe if you explained, specifically, how it was 'hard' then I might be swayed.

[Mirishka]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

Some of us already knew that.

Most of the difficulty of vanilla was a combination of poor class balance, not knowing everything and not having good gear for most of the journey. Of course a bear in Elwynn feels like the devil when you're playing a weak class/spec wearing nothing but shitty white/grey items.

And anyone who says that MC was more difficult than something like Eternal Palace is high.

[Firedemon]

I might be wrong, but I recall CCing becoming a big part of the game in BC.

Yes, heroics were a little damaging, and that was also until tanks were in full t4 or higher, then cc once again didn't matter. Except for some parts of mgt

[Beazy]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

LOL Found the guy who thinks player power level in 1.0 is the same as it was in patch 1.12.

Oh god my sides.

[Mirishka]

You are confusing the proficiency of players to the difficulty of content which makes no sense. Just because people are bad at something does not make it hard. This “difficulty” that so many people have claimed largely is due to resources, players, and information available to everyone.

The true fact of the matter is that the raid encounters now are vastly more difficult and complex. Classes are vastly more complex. Perfect example is how many classes just spam 1 button and that is a rotation?

The reality is that it was a different thing time and players have just gotten better at the game in general with information and resources that are available. When you look at a classic Rag kill and compare that to say the version of Mythic KJ that Method killed in 500+ pulls its not even really a discussion.

The game progressed and players did with it. Anyone who honestly thinks that vanilla wow raids were as hard as current content has most likely not done really high end raiding in the current season retail game.

This is not a slight on the true vanilla experience. I just think that too many people look back at what they perceive as difficulty when it was anything but.

Very well said.

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Yes, heroics were a little damaging, and that was also until tanks were in full t4 or higher, then cc once again didn't matter. Except for some parts of mgt

Indeed, in BT gear I would pull entire rooms as a tank in heroic Shattering Halls, never failed to give my healers a heart attack

[Maudib]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please don't use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

So... you are comparing low level Classic dungeons with Mythic+ dungeons? Because I seriously doubt you have run any of the higher dungeons yourself.

Sounds reason enough to call Classic harder. But I agree... it is likely that Deadmines is easier than say any Level 120 Mythic+10


All funnin' aside... No... Classic isn't "harder".. it's different. But most importantly... Classic dungeons are FUN and are a part of a living, breathing Azeroth. And that is really all that maters. I find no MMO satisfaction in repeating dungeons in ever increasing difficulty with artificial difficulty affixes. What does any of that have to do with the World of Warcraft? I dunno.. just not my thing.

[Beazy]

See, people now tend to say things like 1.12 is something completely different....come on guys, if you have played everything back then you should know its not.

Of course 1.12 changed a lot, but not that much at all. We were simply bad and the game was back then already called the casual mmorpg compared to everqeust etc.

https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Time...d_of_Warcraft)

Ummmm, you might want to click on some of the patches there bud.

[Mirishka]

LOL Found the guy who thinks player power level in 1.0 is the same as it was in patch 1.12.

Oh god my sides.

The game was harder of course at 1.0 than 1.12, but 1.0 still wasn't more difficult than the current game. Vanilla was difficult/tedious in different ways than BFA is, but there are simply more things that will brutally kill you even at 120 than there were 1-60. Mythic dungeons, heroic/mythic raids, horrendous elites in zones like Nazjatar, the list goes on.

And yes, before you ask, I played vanilla from day 1. I remember my countless murloc deaths in Elwynn, getting lost in the caves of Teldrassil, finishing Baron 45 (the original challenge mode), etc like it was yesterday.

Not sure why people need to blow the 'VANILLA WUZ HARD' trumpet (validation I guess?) all the time when even vanilla WoW was a marshmallow cremepuff compared to other MMOs like EQ.