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  1. #1041
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    Nice fairy tale.

    There is a fairy tale that without LFR people would step up their skill to "actually" raid.
    But you also told us a different kind of myth that because of LFR people want to "step up" to other difficulties.

    Not gonna pretend i know for sure, but IMO this doesnt happen "a lot of times".
    does it happen often? absolutely not. People either don't have the time to commit to a raid schedule or just don't want to. But there's still people that will commit and LFR introduced them to that world of raiding. To remove LFR entirely would cripple the game and likely cause a MASSIVE drop in subscriptions.

  2. #1042
    Personally, I don't think LFR's difficulty (or lack thereof) is really the issue with LFR. Having a kiddie's first raid setting isn't really a bad thing in of itself. I feel like it is the lack of server identity and more tourism-y feel to it that's the real problem. Having a queue system for dungeons or raids I think is great, but only if it's single server. Cross server queues make it so that you don't have consequences to any crappiness you put out so a lot of people don't even try.

    The looking for group tool is also quite nice, and I wish Blizzard had put that in before LFR. Cross-server shenanigans should be left to people who want to bring friends. Or, if you really must have a cross-server group, then you have to build it up yourself instead of letting LFR do it for you.

    Also, making it so that you can only get loot from a boss once a week per character would probably help combat the "gotta do this four times a week" feeling some people have. So if you do Boss 1 in LFR, you get LFR loot. But if you do Boss 1 in Normal later that week, you don't get the loot. If you didn't do Boss 2 in LFR but did Boss 2 in Normal, then you get Normal loot. I doubt it would go over well with players, but it is a way of doing things.

  3. #1043
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    does it happen often? absolutely not. People either don't have the time to commit to a raid schedule or just don't want to. But there's still people that will commit and LFR introduced them to that world of raiding. To remove LFR entirely would cripple the game and likely cause a MASSIVE drop in subscriptions.
    I agree it would result in a loss of subscriptions because "just" removing LFR is stupid and dumb, as it solves nothing by itself.
    What could be done is ADD new stuff in hopes Blizzard FINALLY discovers the secret formula to hold casuals.
    IMO LFR was one of the many studies from Blizzard to see if it could hold casuals...

    Its been so long...yet no company in the MMO industry has the secret formula for a casual to login everyday and have genuine fun. IMO

  4. #1044
    Quote Originally Posted by Shadoowpunk View Post
    I agree it would result in a loss of subscriptions because "just" removing LFR is stupid and dumb, as it solves nothing by itself.
    What could be done is ADD new stuff in hopes Blizzard FINALLY discovers the secret formula to hold casuals.
    IMO LFR was one of the many studies from Blizzard to see if it could hold casuals...

    Its been so long...yet no company in the MMO industry has the secret formula for a casual to login everyday and have genuine fun. IMO
    I personally feel Wildstar almost had it with their player housing system. People logged in constantly just to build things on their plot and a lot of people ONLY did that every single day. Maybe if WoW finally introduced player housing, it could give people a reason to log in every day. But that's really wishful thinking.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by GenericDragon View Post
    Personally, I don't think LFR's difficulty (or lack thereof) is really the issue with LFR. Having a kiddie's first raid setting isn't really a bad thing in of itself. I feel like it is the lack of server identity and more tourism-y feel to it that's the real problem. Having a queue system for dungeons or raids I think is great, but only if it's single server. Cross server queues make it so that you don't have consequences to any crappiness you put out so a lot of people don't even try.

    The looking for group tool is also quite nice, and I wish Blizzard had put that in before LFR. Cross-server shenanigans should be left to people who want to bring friends. Or, if you really must have a cross-server group, then you have to build it up yourself instead of letting LFR do it for you.

    Also, making it so that you can only get loot from a boss once a week per character would probably help combat the "gotta do this four times a week" feeling some people have. So if you do Boss 1 in LFR, you get LFR loot. But if you do Boss 1 in Normal later that week, you don't get the loot. If you didn't do Boss 2 in LFR but did Boss 2 in Normal, then you get Normal loot. I doubt it would go over well with players, but it is a way of doing things.
    The issue with a queue system specific to a server is that RP server players would NEVER get to see most of the content.

  5. #1045
    LFR is great for this reason - MANY of us do not play WoW to socialize. For me, WoW is a single player game, and LFR is like running a raid with game provided bots. Works for me.

  6. #1046
    Quote Originally Posted by Raelbo View Post
    Fair enough point. That being said, content that you will never get to doesn't count. To all intents and purposes it's no different from content that doesn't exist.
    Yeah, I mostly agree. The important part is the perception that the players has, rather than the actual reality.

    The problem that you describe I believe is entirely Blizzards fault through how they implement new tiers. Blizzard has a habit of making previous tiers irrelevant, rather than creating a chain between previous and current tiers. I agree with you that content that player never reach, or atleast never percieve that they will reach, is not productive. I do however think it is fine that people reach content later and not the first 4 weeks of a patch.

    In the final patch of the expansion, a catch up mechanic is probably smart though, similar to ICC or whatever.

  7. #1047
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    Quote Originally Posted by Milfshaked View Post
    The problem that you describe I believe is entirely Blizzards fault through how they implement new tiers. Blizzard has a habit of making previous tiers irrelevant, rather than creating a chain between previous and current tiers.
    With good reason. Because in TBC it was a disaster.

    For the 1-2% who actually made it through to Sunwell the system worked beautifully. That was how Blizzard designed it and intended for it to work. But it failed the other 98-99% of the playerbase to varying degrees.

    The problem with chaining raids is that it extends the progression ladder too far which results in guilds being set back too much by losing a raider. Which means that top guilds will poach from guilds just below them, who then poach from the guilds below them, to replace not only their own lost raiders, but those that are poached by the guilds above them. Think of a pyramid, with the guys at the tip getting to see all the content, and everyone below making it to varying raids in the progression, but the vast majority getting stuck at the entry raid and spending an entire expansion trying to compensate for lost progress rather than actually making progress.

    Those "feeder" guilds started the expansion enthusiastically, hoping and expecting to make good progress, at their own pace, maybe not all the way to Sunwell, but at least most of the way. After a year of constant setbacks the general result was disillusionment and collapse.

    That is why Blizzard changed their philosophy in WotLK. And it was massively successful. Players actually got to raid and experience the story, instead having to settle for watching their "betters" doing it on youtube.

    Also, as an aside, I disagree with the assertion that new tiers make old tiers irrelevant. Those tiers would be pretty much irrelevant regardless of whether a new tier arrives or not. If a guild can't clear a raid in 4-6 months, odds that they're done with the place regardless (as in they have got all the fun out of the tier and it's time to move on). Forcing them to stay there when new content arrives isn't likely to be productive - it's just going to exacerbate the problem and cause more frustrations.

    Quote Originally Posted by Milfshaked View Post
    I agree with you that content that player never reach, or atleast never percieve that they will reach, is not productive. I do however think it is fine that people reach content later and not the first 4 weeks of a patch.
    Agreed. But isn't this mostly what happens?

    LFR is staggered for just this reason - in order to try and emulate the expected progression of the rest of the playerbase.

  8. #1048
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The issue with a queue system specific to a server is that RP server players would NEVER get to see most of the content.
    Unless you play on Moonguard or Wyrmrest Accord

    But yeah. That's more a symptom of all the empty servers than anything else. Low pop pve and pvp servers would have this issue too. So would faction-imbalanced servers. But that's where the LFG tool comes in -- there one where you post your group up in the page and people have the option of requesting to join. Having the options of either a server-bound automated queue or building a raid from the ground up through socializing and bringing in a cross-server population would both help with the low pop server issues.

    It's not a perfect system, but neither is LFR in its current iteration. There probably isn't a perfect solution, but there are things that could potentially work.

  9. #1049
    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    It introduced an automatic grouping system that has a negative effect on the social dynamic of the game as a whole.

    People say, "just ignore it if you don't like it", but that's not intelligent and ignores how LFR affects what would otherwise be a more social game through organized groups.
    This is the biggest fallacy of the entire anti-LFR argument: that it is preventing something in the game. It does not prevent anyone being social in the game or grouping. I'm in a guild. We play together a lot. I have alts that I take through LFR. That has not prevented me from being social in the game AT ALL. And I am far from alone.

    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    Now, do some people like LFR? Yep. I just don't want them in my game.
    Then find another game. LFR people have been in WoW for the better part of the last decade and it hasn't adversely affected you. Me doing LFR or not doing it has not had any impact on your game experience IN THE SLIGHTEST. And more importantly, it is very obvious that LFR is never going to be removed from World of Warcraft, that it is a fixed commodity, that it will continue to be part of the game experience so that everyone has an opportunity to see raid content whether they're mythic hardcore raiders or casual game fans with an hour to spare.

    Perhaps, then, this isn't YOUR game, but OURS, and you're the one who doesn't belong. Just a thought. Maybe, just maybe, the problem with the game is, after all, you.

  10. #1050
    Quote Originally Posted by lyphe View Post
    It introduced an automatic grouping system that has a negative effect on the social dynamic of the game as a whole.

    People say, "just ignore it if you don't like it", but that's not intelligent and ignores how LFR affects what would otherwise be a more social game through organized groups. WoW was born an MMO, and the introduction of tools like LFR has slowly been killing the spirit of the game, and turning it into an anti-social single player faceroll, where letting people 'tour' the content takes precedent over actually working on over-coming challenges as a group, the way an MMO is supposed to be played.

    Now, do some people like LFR? Yep. I just don't want them in my game. I'd liken people who enjoy LFR to the type of person who'd buy a mail-order black belt and then like to pretend they know how to fight.
    Translation: I'm a huge elitist so if people can't find a group or can't find the time to dedicate to a raid group, they don't deserve to experience the content.

  11. #1051
    Never understood this lfr hate, all i see if a bunch of dogshit social missfits that cant handle online pixels.
    When i think about it god dam what a shit life you must have.

  12. #1052
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Translation: I'm a huge elitist so if people can't find a group or can't find the time to dedicate to a raid group, they don't deserve to experience the content.
    Dude, what is your problem? He didn't say anything about being above casuals, better than them, more dedicated, or anything along the lines of being deserving or entitled to the content. He made an eloquent point about how an MMO was originally structured and why he believes things like LFR make MMOs stray for their original design. Some of us genuinely miss the real feel of an MMO where you have to find other adventurers to partake in this raid with you. Not everyone enjoys clicking "Look for Group" and then being placed with a bunch of randoms that couldn't care less about the content they're doing.

    Are you only here to insult and condescend to people who disagree with you? Newsflash, you're coming off as more entitled and elitist than those you're trying to rebuke. Reported your post for being a d***.
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2019-09-10 at 04:47 PM.

  13. #1053
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    Dude, what is your problem? He didn't say anything about being above casuals, better than them, more dedicated, or anything along the lines of being deserving or entitled to the content. He made an eloquent point about how an MMO was originally structured and why he believes things like LFR make MMOs stray for their original design.

    Are you only here to insult and condescend to people who disagree with you? Newsflash, you're coming off as more entitled and elitist than those you're trying to rebuke. Reported your post for being a d***.
    Eloquent post? He literally said "I don't want people that like these certain things in my game". That's literally the definition of elitism. He wants the game to change into something HE wants and doesn't care about the majority of the game's population. Because once again, it's HIS game and not everyone's game.

  14. #1054
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    Eloquent post? He literally said "I don't want people that like these certain things in my game". That's literally the definition of elitism. He wants the game to change into something HE wants and doesn't care about the majority of the game's population. Because once again, it's HIS game and not everyone's game.
    You realize you're campaigning in a very similar, insulting way, right? Some people don't like LFR because it has negatively impacted the MMO community. You like it because it gives people a way to raid in 30 mins with no skill or effort.

    What makes you any less entitled than what he wants? Absolutely nothing.

  15. #1055
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    You realize you're campaigning in a very similar, insulting way, right? Some people don't like LFR because it has negatively impacted the MMO community. You like it because it gives people a way to raid in 30 mins with no skill or effort.

    What makes you any less entitled than what he wants? Absolutely nothing.
    The difference is that I'm not gonna be an elitist jerk and say "I don't want people who disagree with LFR playing in the same game as me." People are allowed to have opinions. I like LFR because it gives people a chance to experience some semblance of raid content when they can't commit to a raid schedule or in some situations flat out don't want to commit. LFR doesn't impact raiding guilds in the slightest. If their raiders start leaving the guild, it has nothing to do with LFr and has everything do with an entitled mindset. Because how DARE other people experience the raid if they don't do it on the same difficulty as me!!

    Regardless, LFR isn't going anywhere. It's been in the game for nearly a decade. So if you don't like it, you don't have to partake in it. If you think it ruins the game, nobody is forcing you to keep playing. But plenty of people enjoy it so to declare that it should be removed is you essentially saying that your enjoyment is more important than the majority's enjoyment. Because I hate to break it to you, the majority of the player base actually likes that LFR is part of the game.

  16. #1056
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    *disclaimer* I personally enjoy team building and it is what I enjoyed the most about raiding.

    From my personalexperience of running raid team between 2009-2016.

    I can tell you I noticed a noticable decreass in quality of my recruits when it came down to additude after the release of LFR.

    I used to get players who were just happy to see the content, because buckling down to raid or waiting used to be the only way they got to experience the game. LFR changed the entry raid demographic on my server.

    I am not sure if LFR was a real net positive on the game or not.

    I do think it had some negative impacts on my personal enjoyment of the game. I also don't play modern warcraft anymore so I don't have a horse in this race.

    Just my 2 cents.
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  17. #1057
    Quote Originally Posted by Ralqadar View Post
    *disclaimer* I personally enjoy team building and it is what I enjoyed the most about raiding.

    From my personalexperience of running raid team between 2009-2016.

    I can tell you I noticed a noticable decreass in quality of my recruits when it came down to additude after the release of LFR.

    I used to get players who were just happy to see the content, because buckling down to raid or waiting used to be the only way they got to experience the game. LFR changed the entry raid demographic on my server.

    I am not sure if LFR was a real net positive on the game or not.

    I do think it had some negative impacts on my personal enjoyment of the game. I also don't play modern warcraft anymore so I don't have a horse in this race.

    Just my 2 cents.
    That's absolutely fair and I can agree to an extent about LFR changing the mindsets of new recruits. I personally had a few instances like that when I was a raid leader up until WoD but I was fortunate enough to mostly come across people eager to experience a higher level of content after seeing LFR. So my server was likely impacted differently than yours was.

  18. #1058
    Quote Originally Posted by ManiaCCC View Post
    That's not how game is structured, you are expecting to run easy runs first. Either LFR or normal.
    Then you are arguing against something that has been around since WoTLK and not specific to LFR. Heroic are locked behind normal. Why are you still arguing about this at this time? Several expansion later?

    It does not seems to be something that Blizzard wants to change to avoid people cherry picking easier mythic bosses prior to heroic full clear.

  19. #1059
    Quote Originally Posted by TheRevenantHero View Post
    The difference is that I'm not gonna be an elitist jerk and say "I don't want people who disagree with LFR playing in the same game as me." People are allowed to have opinions. I like LFR because it gives people a chance to experience some semblance of raid content when they can't commit to a raid schedule or in some situations flat out don't want to commit. LFR doesn't impact raiding guilds in the slightest. If their raiders start leaving the guild, it has nothing to do with LFr and has everything do with an entitled mindset. Because how DARE other people experience the raid if they don't do it on the same difficulty as me!!

    Regardless, LFR isn't going anywhere. It's been in the game for nearly a decade. So if you don't like it, you don't have to partake in it. If you think it ruins the game, nobody is forcing you to keep playing. But plenty of people enjoy it so to declare that it should be removed is you essentially saying that your enjoyment is more important than the majority's enjoyment. Because I hate to break it to you, the majority of the player base actually likes that LFR is part of the game.
    ...I never said it should be removed from Retail. Why do you insist on speaking to me as if in some post I said it should? I have moved to a version of the game that thankfully will never be inclusive to players like you. LFR will never be there. People with the LFR mindset are toxic to a true MMO, and if you think I'm being elitist by saying that, go ahead, use your buzzword. I just don't want the game to be ruined a second time due to MMO "single-players".

    You make generalizations about MILLIONS of people as if you have a crystal ball that gives you answers and data on how exactly LFR has affected the game. You haven't the slightest clue about how exactly LFR skews sub numbers. Blizzard doesn't release this info, so how the heck would you know? You don't.

    Yeah, you're not at all entitled or presumptuous. /sarcasm
    Last edited by Black Goat; 2019-09-10 at 05:15 PM.

  20. #1060
    Quote Originally Posted by Black Goat View Post
    ...I never said it should be removed. Why do you insist on speaking to me as if in some post I said it should? I have moved to a version of the game that thankfully will never be inclusive to players like you. LFR will never be a thorn in the side of the version of the game I choose to play.

    -You're not going to be an elitist jerk, but you'll be just a jerk, then? Okay.

    -You make generalizations about MILLIONS of people as if you have a crystal ball that gives you answers and data on how exactly LFR has affected the game. You haven't the slightest clue about how exactly LFR skews sub numbers. Blizzard doesn't release this info, so how the heck would you know? You don't.

    -And you fancy yourself righteous and entitled enough to have a feature that allows access to a, lol, semblance of "raid" content? Sure.

    Yeah, you're not at all entitled or presumptuous. /sarcasm
    Blizzard has openly said that LFR has overall been good for the game and has molded how they structure Mythic fights. But please, use more ad hominem.

    I don't think I'm righteous or entitled for having LFR. I don't fancy myself a raider if all I ever do is LFR. But to say that people who like LFR need to leave the game? Yeah that's textbook elitism. You imply I'm entitled and presumptuous yet your entire post reeks of an elitist mindset. Reeks of someone who is angry that people are experiencing the raid on a lower difficulty.

    If you don't like LFR, don't do it. If you don't like what Modern WoW has become, don't play it. But don't act like your mentality is any semblance of a majority.

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