Can we all now agree that Vanilla wasn't harder?

[gioderpington]

Honestly I played vanilla and I am playing classic again and after doing mythic raiding and high keys, I would describe the difference as apples to oranges. What makes classic "hard" is the sheer amount of grinding and lack of gear. But now we have all this gear and complex stat requirements so the dungeons and raids seem easy because we all learned how to gear up quickly. We are doing raids at 15-30 ilvls higher than what they are built for. In example a +15 is trivial if you give your team all 460 ilvl gear.
Whereas in vanilla you didn't have that gear in "harder" dungeons and raids.

Tldr, harder to get gear in vanilla, but otherwise not hard at all

[Nnyco]

So... you are comparing low level Classic dungeons with Mythic+ dungeons? Because I seriously doubt you have run any of the higher dungeons yourself.

Sounds reason enough to call Classic harder. But I agree... it is likely that Deadmines is easier than say any Level 120 Mythic+10


All funnin' aside... No... Classic isn't "harder".. it's different. But most importantly... Classic dungeons are FUN and are a part of a living, breathing Azeroth. And that is really all that maters. I find no MMO satisfaction in repeating dungeons in ever increasing difficulty with artificial difficulty affixes. What does any of that have to do with the World of Warcraft? I dunno.. just not my thing.

You must be smoking some serious stuff if you think that deadmines is even remotely close to anythin in bfa, esspecially m10+.

But of course you think like that. You would be praising a literal pile of shit if it were part of classic.

[Big Thanks]

Define harder? Let's ignore time for the sake of the argument, as I agree with you that time invested has nothing to do with how hard it is.


Harder means chances of dying perhaps? Then yes, leveling up in Classic is much harder. No matter how careful you are, you will die questing, overpulling, being distracted, underestimating a quest boss, autorun past Stitches, etc... At least I have died several times already. In retail, you can pull 8 mobs, a rare and a quest boss, close your eyes, faceroll your keyboard and you will still be alive with 90% of your hp.


PVP? Try to finish up some quests in STV... it is legendary! Between the ganking, tagging mobs and the competition, it is very difficult, not just long. In retail, no one cares or even try...


Endgame content? Right now, you are comparing Molten Core (the entry level raid) to what in retail? LFR? Which is the entry level? Again, you can AFK/faceroll/auto-attack and still win. Too early to say, but let's see the % of people completing AQ40 and Naxx, compared to the % of people completing mythic raids.

I just got owned, as we speak, im now dead, by a pack of 2 mobs in STV.

1 Healer mob and one motherfoker mob that "nets" you and runs away and starts doing ranged attacks.

I thought i could AoE the 2 of them.
The guy NETS me, runs away and starts attacking from afar....the healer then proceeds to heal him.

I died

[Acidz]

Angry retailer thread #7813692

And no, we can't.

[tmamass]

And Classic isn't TRULY the Vanilla experience.

and there we start with the classic isnt vanilla BULLSHIT train
accepting that vanilla was NEVER hard is just to HARD for this crowd....

[Morbownz]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

Mythic plus is designed to be progressively more difficult than standard dungeons, that's why they exist and drop a higher item level of loot. Have you even thought this through? It's impossible that LBRS 5 man is harder than a +20 key for any dungeon. However, if you compare a normal mode dungeon to a Classic Dungeon, I would make the argument that the Classic dungeon is harder.

[Elias01]

You must be smoking some serious stuff if you think that deadmines is even remotely close to anythin in bfa, esspecially m10+.

But of course you think like that. You would be praising a literal pile of shit if it were part of classic.

Can you try for me one thing? Justifi Classic being easy vs BFA. I am not talking about cherry picking mythic + and mythic raiding but entire game as whole. Including leveing, lfg dungeons, lfr, islands, warfrtons etc. Becouse i dont know why but everytime when anyone defend bfa difficulty they always have to cherry pick mythic difficulty levels in order to counterargument bfa being more difficulty. Like rest of the game do not exist or what? You litaraly say that BFA is more diffiuclty becouse of some 0,1% of content actualy takes some effort but completly ignores fact that rest of 99,9% of entire wow content is boring faceroll.

[seniorproc]

I don't expect any highfives, I'm only laughing at the pruned BFA classes that are so bad that even the classic ones seem like a lot of fun. Legion and BFA ruined retail for me.

Because classic rotations are so complex /s

[sibut]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

I'm sorry, have you cleared all of the content yet? No? That's what I thought.

[TheRevenantHero]

I'm sorry, have you cleared all of the content yet? No? That's what I thought.

I don't need to clear every dungeon and raid in Classic to know the difficulty level. It's widely accepted that the content available right now in Classic really isn't that difficult at all.

[Cathululock]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

I was with you till the (well . . . slower). Leveling is slower AND harder. I can pull a TON of stuff on retail and never see my health bar move. It is insane to add this caveat. I feel more accomplished playing classic, but the raids are certainly far easier.


We get it. you are mad that all of your friends are playing classic. we get it. people are mad that their guilds are crumbling because of classic. we get it. you like retail. Have fun in retail.

Maybe blizzard will stop making the game to speed to the end for method and company to compete in the raids for muh e-sports.

[Wangming]

Come on. Give me a single thing the community has agreed on. We never ever did.

[TheRevenantHero]

Because classic rotations are so complex /s

Yeah using 2 Frostbolts and then wanding the rest of the time is much more compelling than the rotations on Modern WoW. /s

- - - Updated - - -

I was with you till the (well . . . slower). Leveling is slower AND harder. I can pull a TON of stuff on retail and never see my health bar move. It is insane to add this caveat. I feel more accomplished playing classic, but the raids are certainly far easier.

Using the "you can't pull massive groups in Classic!" is a fallacy. Sure you can't but most people don't even do that in retail. Try and pull a large group of adds as a mage in BfA and watch your character's health bar rapidly deplete. Just because a FEW classes can mass pull in Modern doesn't mean ALL of them can. Leveling in Classic isn't harder unless you MAKE it harder. Otherwise, it's just slower when compared to Modern.

[clevin]

Shorter OP:

"I need my own thread on a topic that's been beaten to death so I'll feel validated by all the replies. Notice me!!!!!"

Vanilla is slightly harder in some places (early leveling for many classes) but difficulty isn't the point. Now why don't we move the fuck on?

[Coldfrostzero]

I disagree in saying that leveling isn't harder. I played a warrior in Vanilla. I have several warriors in retail (120, 110, 91, 50) that I have raided mythic content on (not saying I'm anywhere near the best or anything, but I would argue I know what I'm doing) and I can solo a mob my level with no problem in retail. I was getting DESTROYED by same level mobs in The Barrens on my warrior in a 1v1 fight with me starting at full health. Now, with how good warriors scale in gear, at lvl 36, I can solo an elite mob about my level.

In retail, with heirlooms, mobs having their health lower, more abilities early on, and also you get gear with stats fairly early on which makes things a lot easier. By comparison, the first green you can get in Classic is level 9 world drops if you're lucky. Most quests don't start giving stats until lvl 12 and not for every slot. I can queue for a dungeon on retail and it'll award me a random blue that I can either equip or sell.

[Akka]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.

So that's already making the title wrong ?

But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.

The need of CC in dungeon was mainly TBC, not Vanilla (or Baron 45 would have been impossible). You still, by far, cannot take as many adds as you can in BfA (these gigantic piles of 10-15 mob all pulled together and AoEd down).

As for the raid, we only have had the LFR equivalent released, so I don't really see how you can make already a comparison. MC and Onyxia were always easy, even at the time (harder due to not having 1.12 talents and not being nerfed and not knowing what to do and so on, but still easy).
I find these comparisons just full of bad faith. Obviously with a single difficulty level, Classic can't be harder than the top difficulty among four different ones, specifically tailored for the top 1 % raider, that is mythic or high-numbered M+. Save for a few delusional guys, nobody ever argued that. What was argued was the AVERAGE content in Classic was harder. So leveling, regular 5-man (can you compare a normal 5-man in BfA and a normal 5-man Classic and still really claim that the latter is obviously easier ?) and raids according to their progression place - reminder, there is not LFR/normal/heroic/mythic in Classic, so the progression depends on the raid's place (T1, T2, T2.5, T3). You need to compare normal raids with BWL, heroic with AQ40 and Mythic with Naxx. So far, anti-Classic people just play dumb and compare Molten Fucking Core with Mythic. Duh.

Of course, all raids will be cleared by top guilds near immediately (they have the experience and the preparation and the skill), but that's a given. Even having said that, I believe that high-level Mythic raids today ARE harder than even Naxx40. But let's take things in honest context now ?

[thatmikeguy]

Classic is not Vanilla. Classic is four months before BC and has fixes and changes from all of those patches. Vanilla was not difficult because of gameplay, it was difficult because of the state of the game itself and technology. There were private launch 1.4 or 1.6 servers back then, but they were as bad as the actual game was for all that time. How many times was the map changed, and coordinates broken before 1.12 so that all the online posts with them were wrong? How easy was it to kill flight masters in the first 6 months? How long did the flight masters take to respawn when killed in the first 6 months? When did contested zones change? How long did it take for quest NPCs to respawn when killed in the first 8 months? Phasing walls? Dialup? OpenGL changes? Kids have no idea!

[Daffan]

Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.

This is why #nochanges crowd sucked.

[iamthedevil]

It definitely was more difficult because people didn't know the game as well as they do now. You can't compare players now and then. That's like comparing gymnastics from 60 years ago with gymnastics of today. People have learned the ins and outs.

[deenman]

Certainly someone can come along and say EQ wasn't hard to them and point out their experiences... 'hard' is a relative term... its based on our experiences... If Wow is the 'hardest' thing you know then of course you are going to say it was 'hard'... If you have other experiences that were more difficult then you aren't going to see Wow as 'hard'... and that is the way it is.

- - - Updated - - -



Bless your heart... you are trying to frame your opinion as a fact... No amount of voodoo or dancing around or parsing of words is going to change my opinion.

opinion=/=facts