Unpopular Opinion: Can't take Varian seriously

[Mehrunes]

Varian in general suffers from Blizzard constantly writing the Alliance with their hands tied behind their back. He can be a tough fighter and a brilliant general and everything, but he can never escape the fact that Blizzard is never going to let the Alliance achieve a real victory over the Horde. Everything's got to be either pyrrhic or a straight-up loss.

It works a little better with Anduin because he's supposed to be naive and inexperienced (although even still they manage to make him stupid enough to stretch the suspension of disbelief at times) but Varian's supposed to be this super badass warrior, and he could never really be that due to Blizzard's bias for the Horde.

But he wasn't a brilliant general. He was a complete moron completely oblivious to issues like overextension or supply lines. He was fighting the first war in his life for god's sake. Him winning anything significant would be inconsistent with his portrayal. Also, it's not like the Horde achieved any real victory over the Alliance either because it's an MMO and status quo is to be preserved, so your MUH HORDE BIAS doomsaying is rather misplaced.

It's not the way he likes, it's the way any decent sentient life should behave. It was a warning, a warning that was heeded and followed until he died and sylvanas happened. The horde actually respected varian. The other stuff I believe as trolling so I won't comment on those.

And what way is it, exactly? The way of simply bending over when Alliance declares war of them instead of fighting back?

In the Siege of Orgrimmar, Vol'jin's Rebellion had completely failed at the gates. It was Tyrande's siege weapons (the glaive throwers) that broke down the gates; the transport ships used by both Alliance and Horde did not carry siege weapons. By Wrathion's reckoning, once the Horde civil war started, the Alliance had a clear path to victory with only Thunder Bluff being an issue.

Vol'jin failed, not the entire rebellion. Stark majority of the rebellion just landed ashore. With Forsaken and Blood Elves often having some kind of ballistae or catapulsts on their ships. Then there's the kind of siege weaponry you build on the spot like siege ladders, siege towers or battering rams (could even use Vol'jin's destroyed siege weapons for that).

And Wrathion isn't exactly an omniscient being that's always correct. On the contrary, his track record shows he's a complete moron. You're talking about a guy whose brilliant plan to stop the Legion only weakened Azerothian forces by pointless conflict with the Iron Horde AND brought the Legion here. Malfurion and Velen weren't present in the Underhold when Varian made his decision and consequently the Horde leaders outpowered the Alliance ones.

As such he made a different decision and pursued further conflict with the Horde the Alliance leadership present would get wiped out and the main part of Alliance army that was above ground in Orgrimmar would become headless and turn into easy picking for the Horde (especially with Sylvanas already using her Val'kyr to resurrect the humans and bolstering the Horde forces even further).

And what would the crumbling remains of the Alliance do after that? Scream their battlecry of "have mercy"? Flock around Malfurion only for him to run away from Sylvanas like a little bitch multiple times just like he did in A Good War (if he didn't outright break down after Tyrande dying)?

On the Broken Shore, the gunship that was used was not meant to bring victory but rather was a means of escape (and was largely succesful). Sylvanas return home did not save everyone, it just saved the Horde. She did fuck all to assist the Alliance to evacuate as she fully exposed their flank.

Except the gunship was called in to finish the job when the Alliance was still thinking they could win this fight. Also, the Horde's retreat didn't expose any flank because the Legion forces from Horde's side needed to take a hike around the entire island to reach the Alliance due to the topography of the terrain. Furthermore, Alliance retreated when they did only because they heard the Horde's horn and realized the Horde retreated. And had they not retreated when they did, they'd still be on the ground when Gul'dan dropped his Fel Reaver. Which means the Alliance would get roasted. So the claim that Sylvanas didn't save the Alliance is flat out false.

[Mashanerz]

It's a bit late now, but Alliance should've been more objective when taking Varian's words and foolhardy bravery literally.

What are you on about?

The threat that the alliance is watching the horde after the Garrosh stuff is upsetting to you because....?

The only thing I see here is that you're upset they called in a gunship during the combined horde/alliance efforts against the legion.

The Sylvanas horn thing makes zero sense since you're complaining about Varian but he had no part in that since he was dead....

You've said a couple things you think is a problem, but didn't follow through with how or why it's a problem beyond the gunship part, but even that doesn't really lead to the conclusion about being more objective with Varians "words and foolhardy bravery literally"

[Mehrunes]

You're right, they didn't... But Garrosh's loyalists were a massive chunk of the Horde's forces and nearly all of them died... The Horde's military was crippled after it was over, the Alliance and Horde were on equal footing before the rebellion, and the Alliance didn't lose nearly as many troops as the Horde did during it... At that time, Varian most definitely could have backed up his threat.

No they weren't. Even the majority of the Orcs turned against him as outright stated by Blizzard. And as we could see in the raid, the Orcs that stayed with him were the recent additions like the Dragonmaw, Blackrocks and the (slightly less recent) Mag'har. Not the green skinned Orcs that made the bulk of the New Horde upon its creation. And the Horde was on equal footing with the Alliance even before those clans joined.

And the Alliance didn't lose nearly as many troops as the Horde did during it? What? The only part of the anti-Garrosh task force that saw any significant casualties in the rebellion were the Darkspears because Vol'jin was mindlessly throwing them into a literal meatgrinder at the gates of Orgrimmar and prior to SoO the stark majority of rebels weren't anywhere within his reach. Then there's the part where before the rebellion the Alliance was having its ass handed to it during the war, including losing a major city and most of its fleet during Tides of War, as well as the non-human part of SI:7 in the Gilnean campaign.

Not to mention that without Malfurion to carry his sorry ass the Alliance leaders present in the Underhold would get pulverized by the Horde ones the moment Varian started spouting shit about continuing his war.

The guy one shot a new-age Legion Fel Reaver, with a sword... and an Infernal kamakazi'ing the gunship is far from mundaine... Infernals in lore are absolutely not a joke, they will fuck you up.

He mostly killed it with the power of gravity.

Also Baine already cleared that up with Anduin during their correspondence.

Baine didn't clear it up because even Anduin didn't fully believe his own lapdog within the Horde and had to personally interrogate Sylvanas about it. Even though the Rogue's Class Order Hall's discovery that SI:7 has been infiltrated and that it was Detheroc and not Shaw that was pushing the Alliance to war with the Horde over the "grand betrayal" at Broken Shore should have lit some light bulbs. But it didn't, because apparently in-lore the Alliance is full of mouthbreathers that can't tie their own shoelaces.

He never implied he could, it would have been war, but the result would have been decided before it started.

And the fact he didn't continue the war he started AND the Alliance ended up ceding land to the Horde should have made it blatantly clear that the decided result wasn't exactly in his interest.

>imagine thinking the war in cata wasn't started by garrosh.
read a book.

Given how the previous faction war wasn't even started in Cataclysm but in WotLK, you should heed your own advice. I suggest Chronicle v3.

[Soimu]

Let me start by saying, despite playing Horde more, I liked the character and his (spoilers) death was sad.

But he was full of kodocrap.

He talks so big and for some reason, people take him seriously.
"If you don't behave the way I like, I will end you"

The fel you will. You are in middle of Orgrimmar only because the whole rest of the Horde was also against that maniac. It's not like you defeated the whole Horde or something.

And Broken Shore, what the hell. Gul'dan summons all those demons and your definitive answer was... A GUNSHIP? You just got owned on a gunship by mundane demons on your way to Broken Shore (Legion cinematic), how do you expect to succeed against some of the most powerful demons?

Sylvanas' return horn might have saved everyone, but she's being blamed for treachery.


It's a bit late now, but Alliance should've been more objective when taking Varian's words and foolhardy bravery literally.

I wrote about this with a little more detail if you'd like to read that.[Here] (With permission from Roz)

What do you think? I'm especially interested to hear what Alliance players think about this.

i could not take him seriously only the the simple fact of his pokemon haircut.

[Mehrunes]

I hated him.

In Wrath he was basically the same as Garrosh and he started the war with the Horde without any consideration for his allies.

Then suddenly he's made High King out of fucking no where because the war HE started was getting out of control.

Just what the fuck? Horrible character. And don't get me started on how HE was the chosen of Goldrinn over any of the worgen.

And then of course his fucking brat of a child is even worse than him.

In his defense (I think, depends on your perspective I guess) I'd say it was more that he was made the High King despite the war he started getting out of control, not because of it.

He had the power to defeat the Horde, even Wrathion aknowledged this.

Wrathion is a bona fide moron whose grand plan to defend the world from Legion caused the last Legion invasion. Varian had jack shit to defeat the Horde. Had he tried anything in the Underhold the Horde leaders present would wipe their collective asses with him, the army above would get stomped with their leadership gone and Malfurion and Velen would get to pick up Alliance's pieces.

Also, Varian was relying on the Horde to watch his back. When they retreated, he thought they betrayed him, because the person who blew that horn was the most untrustworthy and conniving witch on Azeroth. It's also Sylvanas' fault, she could have easily sent an emissary to Varian to warn him of their dire situation.

The Horde was warned of the retreat with the horn. Brevity in such circumstances is the key. And what was Sylvanas supposed to do anyway? Throw an emissary down the goddamn cliff? Also, Genn was hurrdurring about betrayal. Varian was just surprised and said she wouldn't leave them because he didn't know what was going on (as he was fighting close to the cliff at that time and couldn't see the spaceships attacking the Horde).

someone never bothered to read 'the shattering: a prelude to cataclysm', so again i say: read a fucking book.

You mean The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm that explicitly mentions how the factions were at war, were trying to make peace to end that war but all they achieved in that regard was a temporary truce because the Alliance shat the bed in regards to the peace talks?

It also happens AFTER Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate, which resulted in the annihilation of the bulk of the Alliance expedition force and the death of Varian's best friend and closest advisor.

No she didn't. And if you checked the quest @Wyrt was talking about you'd know Varian's declaration of war had nothing to do with the Wrathgate. It was almost entirely about how he dislikes Orcs and the only Forsaken-related comment he made was him calling Sylvanas a witch. It could have something to do with Varian accepting Horde's assurances that Wrathgate was caused by traitors to the Horde. And by could I mean it absolutely did, because the very thing that motivated him to go to Undercity at that time was the fact that Horde lost control of the Undercity and the prospect of conquering it before the Horde could regain control over it. Which we know because he flat out said as much in the quest just before that.

[Dellis0991]

The Horde's leadership is a fucking circus so I sure as hell ain't taking them serious.

[Faroth]

You mean The Shattering: Prelude to Cataclysm that explicitly mentions how the factions were at war, were trying to make peace to end that war but all they achieved in that regard was a temporary truce because the Alliance shat the bed in regards to the peace talks?

I knew you'd be in here spinning everything to somehow be 100% the Alliance's hostility while the Horde gud bois never did anything wrong. XD

Just ignore....I guess literally everything in game and in every novel so you can keep that blind version of events going, Mehrunes.

[Dellis0991]

At the end of MoP Varian could've made good on his promise, the horde military was crippled and all the leadership was there more than likely out outnumbered and judging from the way Shaw ran the BFA war campaign it seemed Varian's promise was valid, Shaw wasn't fucking around.

[Jastall]

One must remember that Sylvanas herself states that she would not have gone to war had Varian been alive, which does lend credence to his threats.

Then again, she then proceeded to go to war, only to be humiliated by Varian's pacifist sissy of a son anyway, while Garrosh had a much stronger showing against the man himself. So I dunno what to believe anymore.

[Mehrunes]

No. If Wrathion's statement is not enough, you have Metzen stating that the Alliance was the only remaining superpower after the Siege of Orgrimmar.

And Blizzard backed out of it just a few weeks later by saying even most of the Orcs turned against Garrosh. Never mind that regardless of being a superpower or not, the Alliance leaders in Underhold would still get killed had they tried anything and the Alliance would instantly turn into a headless superpower.

There's no way to use a horn or to order the retreat of an entire army in a sneaky way.......

You're right, there's no way to use a horn to order the retreat of an entire army in a sneaky way because the very point of horns is that they are loud as hell. Congrats on dismantling your own argument, I guess?

Also, Sylvanas should have realized the Alliance wouldn't have believed that her retreat was for legit reasons, because she is Sylvanas Windrunner. It's almost like both parties are at fault for the whole Broken Shore misunderstanding.

For god's sake, Sylvanas wasn't even the commanding officer on Horde side during the Broken Shore. And the spaceships that were blasting at the Horde and were the reason they had to retreat are literally visible from the Alliance's position. It's not almost like both parties are at fault for the Broken Shore misunderstanding. Alliance and Alliance alone is responsible for that because they jumped to conclusion they wanted to without giving a damn about any facts to the contrary.

I was referring to the gunship part. Also it was working for the Alliance until the Horde retreated, but last I checked the Alliance had no way of knowing how the Horde was doing, especially since they received no message whatsoever from them.

Apparently the Alliance races didn't evolve eyes and as such couldn't see the giant Legion spaceships warping in over the battlefield and shooting bright green crap on the Horde's position. Who knew?

https://blizzardwatch.com/2018/11/12...red-wrathgate/

The fact that you don't know this polarizing statement from almost one year ago is concerning.

A vague statement from a guy who has a history of misspeaking under the pressure of an interview.

i find it funny you think that they're the same war, but no. the book states that garrosh started the cata-mop war no matter how many times you try to goal-post it it's a official source and you're salty about it.

The book literally states the opposite though. You're right about one thing though. It is an official source. One that proves you wrong.

that's not a retcon, it's consistent with varimathras' warnings about sylvanas and putress' proclamation and monologue.
we just assumed it was the demonlord who was the back-stabber, more recently sylvanas has shown that she's appt at wounded gazelle gambits with the lead-in to nazjatar.

The only reason it's not an outright retcon is because it's vague. Other than that, the omniscient narration of post-Cata Forsaken intro outright states that the Wrathgate was a betrayal. Also, are you seriously going to use Varimathras' commentary in his Legion fight as some kind of truth when he was explicitly talking out of his ass about how she became Warchief and was in general talking about things he had no way of learning as they happened after he was imprisoned and turned into Sargeras' source of torture porn, cut off from the rest of the universe?

also yes, it's their story and the book it canon.
so it matters whether you think it does or doesn't.

And that canonical book still states that the factions had a temporary truce during the events of said book.

We never knew who ordered the Wrathgate tbh. It was Sylvanas' word against Varimathras. Sylvanas could well have ordered it and then when Varimathras' coup happened she could have dumped it all on him to get assistance to get UC back. How would any of us know?

From the omniscient narrator in Forsaken intro since Cataclysm flat out calling it a betrayal?

[Erwarth]

Afrasiabi is an idiot, or do you think Draenor is a titan also?

It's irrelevent.

He's an official source. We're nerds on forums.

I take his word.

[Mehrunes]

OT: Horde rebellion failed at the gates of Orgrimmar, without Alliance there wouldn't be the Horde now.

Because taking some siege weapons off the ships of the stark majority of rebel forces that just landed ashore was too complicated. Not to mention the arduous task of constructing siege towers and battering rams.

Yes it is, his name was Dranosh!

"And it means 'Heart of Draenor' in the language I'm currently speaking in, making this translation make no sense."

[tromage2]

"If you don't behave the way I like, I will end you"

As a Horde player i had a good laugh at him at the end of SoO, the fool.
I always think about the cinematic going on a few seconds after that and we hear Garrosh laughing his ass of at Varian when he is been taken away.

[Mehrunes]

I knew you'd be in here spinning everything to somehow be 100% the Alliance's hostility while the Horde gud bois never did anything wrong. XD

Just ignore....I guess literally everything in game and in every novel so you can keep that blind version of events going, Mehrunes.

Yes, stating facts from a book is such a spin. Whatever lets you sleep at night and preserve your fanfiction. Unless you have an actual source stating that the war Varian declared in Wrath ended prior to The Shattering and as such Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale in The Shattering was him starting another war. I'm all ears. You know, except for the part where Garrosh's invasion of Ashenvale still happened after Northwatch's forces attacked the Barrens.

[Shiny212]

I cant take the narrative of WoW seriously as a whole and never have.

[Lord Pebbleton]

Variants only mistake was to tell the horde to "uphold their honor", since honor to horde is something that can shift to its literal opposite in the blink of an eye.

[Mehrunes]

One must remember that Sylvanas herself states that she would not have gone to war had Varian been alive, which does lend credence to his threats.

Then again, she then proceeded to go to war, only to be humiliated by Varian's pacifist sissy of a son anyway, while Garrosh had a much stronger showing against the man himself. So I dunno what to believe anymore.

Given how her reasons for war against Anduin-led Alliance is "Anduin is too weak to keep the hardliners within the Alliance in check", why would that have anything to do with his threats? Also, Garrosh's personal contribution to the previous faction war revolved almost entirely about his efforts to conquer Ashenvale in which he fucked around for years with nothing to show for it. Sylvanas conquered it in an afternoon.

[Verdugo]

It's irrelevent.

He's an official source. We're nerds on forums.

I take his word.

"Night Elves had their revenge."

[Nefastus]

I have to say I never liked Varian, even during his comic.

[TheImperios]

Varian in general suffers from Blizzard constantly writing the Alliance with their hands tied behind their back. He can be a tough fighter and a brilliant general and everything, but he can never escape the fact that Blizzard is never going to let the Alliance achieve a real victory over the Horde. Everything's got to be either pyrrhic or a straight-up loss.

It works a little better with Anduin because he's supposed to be naive and inexperienced (although even still they manage to make him stupid enough to stretch the suspension of disbelief at times) but Varian's supposed to be this super badass warrior, and he could never really be that due to Blizzard's bias for the Horde.

The problem isn't as much bias as it is Blizzard being too focused on preserving faction identities, to the point that it hampers the factions themselves.

The Alliance must be good, so whatever bad or even just aggressive things it does will have to be sugarcoated and softened. The Horde must be badass, so they will do "cool" things even if it makes no sense.