Unpopular Opinion: Can't take Varian seriously

[Beloren]

Going to need proof.

He's right, canonically, Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate in secret. I think blizzard here are doing something like those series and movies with CIA operatives and black ops groups.

Basically, if you get caught or you fail, the governement disavows any knowledge of it kinda thinkg. Varimathras is likely going to be portrayed as using the opportunity provided by the chaos to seize control of the undercity and forsaken and carry out his own agendas

[Aeula]

I couldn’t take him seriously with his face and hair.

[Dellis0991]

I couldn’t take him seriously with his face and hair.

Anime hair and boxing glove face.

[Ielenia]

Let me start by saying, despite playing Horde more, I liked the character and his (spoilers) death was sad.

But he was full of kodocrap.

He talks so big and for some reason, people take him seriously.
"If you don't behave the way I like, I will end you"

The fel you will. You are in middle of Orgrimmar only because the whole rest of the Horde was also against that maniac. It's not like you defeated the whole Horde or something.

The Horde was in shambles. If Varian decided to strike at that very moment, after defeating Garrosh, victory would be assured.

And Broken Shore, what the hell. Gul'dan summons all those demons and your definitive answer was... A GUNSHIP? You just got owned on a gunship by mundane demons on your way to Broken Shore (Legion cinematic), how do you expect to succeed against some of the most powerful demons?

You forget that Sylvanas and the Horde were supposed to provide support by keeping the skies clear with their archers and mages to keep the flying ship safe so it could provide aerial support while the Alliance focused on the fight against Gul'Dan on the ground.

Sylvanas' return horn might have saved everyone, but she's being blamed for treachery.

Sylvanas' call for retreat came out of nowhere from the Alliance's perspective. The loss of the Horde's archers turned the tables in the fight on the ground, and the gunship, instead of providing air support, was instead used to escape.

It's a bit late now, but Alliance should've been more objective when taking Varian's words and foolhardy bravery literally.

The Alliance can never achieve true victory against the Horde, because the Alliance is being portrayed as the "good, honorable guys". It's always straight-up defeat or pyrrhic victories.

[Powerogue]

I was mostly just salty that we got 0 backstory when he popped into the story about where he'd been. Not all of us read the comics!

I think at the end of the day he got enough cool moments I overlook the rest.

[Dakhath]

Varian was held back by the fact that this is an MMO with two factions that you have to at least try to please.

He should have, and would have, killed Svlyanas after Wrathgate.

He should have, and would have, killed Garrosh after Siege.

But Blizzard has to try to maintain a story that has two groups as the star of their own show.

[stomination]

pretty much this, remember how they lied about the ending of MoP?

- - - Updated - - -



>imagine thinking the war in cata wasn't started by garrosh.
read a book.

They were already at war. Then they had peace talks and the twilight group interfered making the garrosh and varian both believe they were being tricked by each other.

[TheFirstOnes]

Was that what actualy happened? I remember glaives harmlessly disintegrating on the gate and the orcs opening it to see what the actual fuck was that attempt.

Tyrande: BREAK THE GATE!

*Fucking throws Glaives at the thing. Glaives that aren't even magic boosted*

Nazgrim: Bitch wtf?!

- - - Updated - - -

Let's be honest here, there was far more than just a "gunship" against the Legion. They brought in EVERYTHING! And the Legion basically just swept through them like a human stepping on an ant. It wasn't a fight. It was a slaughter.

- - - Updated - - -

Hell, even if we had Kul'tiras and the Zandalari with us then, nothing would change.

[Engal]

Tyrande: BREAK THE GATE!

*Fucking throws Glaives at the thing. Glaives that aren't even magic boosted*

Nazgrim: Bitch wtf?!

- - - Updated - - -

Let's be honest here, there was far more than just a "gunship" against the Legion. They brought in EVERYTHING! And the Legion basically just swept through them like a human stepping on an ant. It wasn't a fight. It was a slaughter.

- - - Updated - - -

Hell, even if we had Kul'tiras and the Zandalari with us then, nothing would change.

And jaina who can teleport people can't even teleport Varian...

[Tyrathius]

I mean, our Argus invasion strategy was pretty much just "send a gunship" and it worked.

You really can't put too much thought into strategies in WoW, because really, it's just the writers doing whatever they want. Plans succeed or fail based on where they want the story to go, not on their actual merit as plans.

[Graeham]

I cant take the story seriously anymore, especially when you realize you and several other people do all the work so they can bum off you and take all the credit.

Kills illidan - maev takes credit
Kills lich king - bolvar takes over, tirion and others get credit
Kills death wing - thrall and others get credit
Kills old chinese gods, saves pandaria, stops garosh - varian/thrall take credit
Goes back in time, stops iron horde - others get credit
Defeats the legion, stops sergeras - illidan gets credit

Like seriously screw that, we get called hero every now and then but we're always stuck being the grunts that the higher ups piggy back off of.

I'd rather established characters get the credit over player character self inserts, personally. FFXIV takes the approach of making the player character the most important person ever and the novelty wore off pretty quickly for me.

[Garymorilix]

He's right, canonically, Sylvanas ordered the Wrathgate in secret. I think blizzard here are doing something like those series and movies with CIA operatives and black ops groups.

Basically, if you get caught or you fail, the governement disavows any knowledge of it kinda thinkg. Varimathras is likely going to be portrayed as using the opportunity provided by the chaos to seize control of the undercity and forsaken and carry out his own agendas

It was hinted at that Sylvanas knew about it. Nobody ever stated that "Sylvanas ordered this attack but only her and Vari knew about it, and she made sure that no-one knew so if they got caught she could just blame Vari and Putress and get away with it". Afri barely mentioned her being behind it.

Even then, the war was started by Varian, doesn't matter what Sylvanas did or didn't do prior. Game states that, chronicle states that.

i find it funny you think that they're the same war, but no. the book states that garrosh started the cata-mop war no matter how many times you try to goal-post it it's a official source and you're salty about it.

They are the same war. How is this even a question. Check the Chronicle.

[Soon-TM]

Varian was fine - in a vacuum. But as soon as he was turned into the Blue Warchief and started bossing everyone around, things started to go south with him. I mean, the guy had never studied strategy, had never had any positions in the military - as a matter of fact, he had no experience whatsoever in military matters, other than being a gladiator for the amusement of a bunch of Orcs... Yet he was made the supreme commander of Ally forces? Like WTF Blizzard...

[cuafpr]

in SoO he could have ended the horde...the horde was splintered and broken.. after the big boss fight its implied there are more alliance troops/heroes than horde indicating he could carry out his threat.

Broken shore was desperate/suicide mission from the start. Both sides knew enough that it was stop them now or never type deal (later proven wrong of course). Sylavanas did betray him and the alliance.... She was obligated to cover the flank and that means covering the flank while both retreat not running and leaving the other behind. The gunship was basically all that was left from the initial assault on the island. again it was stop them here or never type plan.

[Clone]

I liked the concept of the character, especially initially in the comics. Like most characters though Blizzard fucked it up.

[mickybrighteyes]

Varian's logash slave gladiator bit seemed to retcon stuff into existence in Orgrimmar that weren't touched on originally. He then starts shit in undercity acting all righteous and shit... then basically gives the same speech more tactfully as a threat in orgrimmar...

Overall I liked where he wound up but a lot of the steps along the way were really annoying, nevermind his blood elf hairdo.

[tromage2]

in SoO he could have ended the horde...the horde was splintered and broken.. after the big boss fight its implied there are more alliance troops/heroes than horde indicating he could carry out his threat.

His threat was meaningless (that is why all Horde community made jokes about him after SoO), there where never more Alliance troops on Kalimdor since most of them landed from ships.

Next to that if you see what Horde members are present in the room Varian would had been killed on the spot.
Maybe Jaina could teleport them out but Thrall, Vol'Jin, Lor'themar, Baine, Gallywix and Sylvanas vs Varian, Jaina and Anduin… GL.

[Highelf]

But he wasn't a brilliant general. He was a complete moron completely oblivious to issues like overextension or supply lines. He was fighting the first war in his life for god's sake. Him winning anything significant would be inconsistent with his portrayal. Also, it's not like the Horde achieved any real victory over the Alliance either because it's an MMO and status quo is to be preserved, so your MUH HORDE BIAS doomsaying is rather misplaced.




And what way is it, exactly? The way of simply bending over when Alliance declares war of them instead of fighting back?




Vol'jin failed, not the entire rebellion. Stark majority of the rebellion just landed ashore. With Forsaken and Blood Elves often having some kind of ballistae or catapulsts on their ships. Then there's the kind of siege weaponry you build on the spot like siege ladders, siege towers or battering rams (could even use Vol'jin's destroyed siege weapons for that).

And Wrathion isn't exactly an omniscient being that's always correct. On the contrary, his track record shows he's a complete moron. You're talking about a guy whose brilliant plan to stop the Legion only weakened Azerothian forces by pointless conflict with the Iron Horde AND brought the Legion here. Malfurion and Velen weren't present in the Underhold when Varian made his decision and consequently the Horde leaders outpowered the Alliance ones.

As such he made a different decision and pursued further conflict with the Horde the Alliance leadership present would get wiped out and the main part of Alliance army that was above ground in Orgrimmar would become headless and turn into easy picking for the Horde (especially with Sylvanas already using her Val'kyr to resurrect the humans and bolstering the Horde forces even further).

And what would the crumbling remains of the Alliance do after that? Scream their battlecry of "have mercy"? Flock around Malfurion only for him to run away from Sylvanas like a little bitch multiple times just like he did in A Good War (if he didn't outright break down after Tyrande dying)?




Except the gunship was called in to finish the job when the Alliance was still thinking they could win this fight. Also, the Horde's retreat didn't expose any flank because the Legion forces from Horde's side needed to take a hike around the entire island to reach the Alliance due to the topography of the terrain. Furthermore, Alliance retreated when they did only because they heard the Horde's horn and realized the Horde retreated. And had they not retreated when they did, they'd still be on the ground when Gul'dan dropped his Fel Reaver. Which means the Alliance would get roasted. So the claim that Sylvanas didn't save the Alliance is flat out false.

LOL, no way you're that daft...wait, were you being serious when you typed that? You have your factions mixed up sir.

[Infraction]

- - - Updated - - -

Varian was fine - in a vacuum. But as soon as he was turned into the Blue Warchief and started bossing everyone around, things started to go south with him. I mean, the guy had never studied strategy, had never had any positions in the military - as a matter of fact, he had no experience whatsoever in military matters, other than being a gladiator for the amusement of a bunch of Orcs... Yet he was made the supreme commander of Ally forces? Like WTF Blizzard...

Which I thought they handled well, when, early on he was more of the gladiator attitude and Tirion or Jaina had to talk him down. Over time, since Wrath, he adopted strategies and learned to quell his initial rage. And you do know that Varian wasn't a child when he was turned in to a Gladiator right?

[Mehrunes]

LOL, no way you're that daft...wait, were you being serious when you typed that? You have your factions mixed up sir.

I'll assume your greatly enunciated post violating the rule about how one is supposed to reply to long posts refers to the bit where I quoted you (correct me if I'm wrong). In which case, let me just laugh right now because the topic of how Alliance started the previous faction war when Garrosh was the leader was heavily covered in this thread. So yeah, I totes have my faction mixed up right now

Which I thought they handled well, when, early on he was more of the gladiator attitude and Tirion or Jaina had to talk him down. Over time, since Wrath, he adopted strategies and learned to quell his initial rage. And you do know that Varian wasn't a child when he was turned in to a Gladiator right?

What does that have to do with anything @Soon-TM said? Also, what great strategies Varian employed. Things like sending freshly conscripted peasants from Westfall to fight a three way fight with the Forsaken and the Scourge in WPL after Southshore already fell and the peasant army was cut off from supplies from the Alliance. The Sun Tzu of Azeroth right there.

[Jester Joe]

He talks so big and for some reason, people take him seriously.
"If you don't behave the way I like, I will end you"

The fel you will. You are in middle of Orgrimmar only because the whole rest of the Horde was also against that maniac. It's not like you defeated the whole Horde or something.

What does "Being in the middle of Orgrimmar" change about it?

It wasn't an Orgrimmar that was aligned with the Horde, it was one just reclaimed from Garrosh, the Horde was just as out of place and also suffered more causalities by being divided in the first place (And Garrosh already was preemptively killing those who didn't agree with him/torturing them).

And Broken Shore, what the hell. Gul'dan summons all those demons and your definitive answer was... A GUNSHIP? You just got owned on a gunship by mundane demons on your way to Broken Shore (Legion cinematic), how do you expect to succeed against some of the most powerful demons?

The gunship was meant for escape too, since Sylvanas was the one meant to hold the aerial troops down and provide support. Also, the first gunship was part of the initial wave of attack, of course it had a harder time when the entire area was under Legion control. I mean, the gunship escaped after Varian sacrificed himself for it, so it appears he wasn't too far off with its usefulness.

I wrote about this with a little more detail if you'd like to read that.[Here] (With permission from Roz)

Going through this, I might be rusty on my lore here, but I'm fairly certain Gnomes lost Gnomeregan to troggs/leper gnomes (which, mind you, troggs have been repeatedly said to be actually dangerous due to their sheer numbers, I guess their danger comes off as lesser when they're used as generic "kill x" quests though). And even then, it was due to betrayal from within.

Then the Gnomes fled to Ironforge and became part of the Alliance from there. And...they did take back Gnomeregan. Pretty sure it was part of the Cataclysm launch event. The issue is it's still so irradiated that it's going to take a long time to cleanse it.

Mind you, by that logic, the trolls couldn't reclaim a few islands from a few naga?