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  1. #441
    Quote Originally Posted by Alphatorg View Post
    That's true for games in general, but I don't see how wow's difficulty goes beyond both sides abilities and pacing?
    Just to illustrate the point, a very basic skill that is nevertheless critical to nearly all fights : getting out of fire (and conversely not getting in), or more generally positioning. It can just as much NOT pressing key than pressing them, the core component being to simply be placed at the right time at the right place.
    More generally, all the situational awareness and decision-making is mostly unrelated to key press.

    To be a bit simplistic, going into a bad place and running back to kill the add that spawned require more key presses in a shorter time than just not moving from the adequate place and being able to switch immediately to the add, yet it's actually playing better.

  2. #442
    Quote Originally Posted by Gardoc View Post
    Yeah it is so much better to choose one of the three pruned abilities that used to be baseline. /s
    I completed mythic raids without ever changing talents. They are not that great. Might give 1-3 % more dmg from boss to boss.

  3. #443
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    Quote Originally Posted by Celista View Post
    I don't know about Vanilla but we definitely cc'd in BC dungeons/raids.
    Same in Vanilla.

    Hunter distract shot first to get mob into freeze trap (No throw trap and can't trap while in combat) also using Hunter to kite last boss in UBRS.

    Sap on pull to offset the out of stealth effect.

    Sheep caster or ranged mob.

    In Classic none of this is true as everyone is way better itemized and boosted so hardcore that they can just cleave everything down. It's like M+5 gear in Normals.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  4. #444
    People have such a hard on to be the smartest person in the room, and claim everyone was always a cake walk.

    What is 'harder'? What part of the current game is hard? Unless you skip to saying 'mythic raids', which are for a fraction of the playerbase. Nothing is any more challenging now than it was prior.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Look up multiple threads and you will see plenty of people stating Vanilla is harder, and even one where someone posted a YouTube video to show how Naxx Vanilla was harder based on raw numbers.
    The video was specifically about Naxx40 vs Naxx Wotlk, which if you argue the Wotlk version was harder, you're likely dense af.

  5. #445
    Quote Originally Posted by Akka View Post
    Just to illustrate the point, a very basic skill that is nevertheless critical to nearly all fights : getting out of fire (and conversely not getting in), or more generally positioning. It can just as much NOT pressing key than pressing them, the core component being to simply be placed at the right time at the right place.
    More generally, all the situational awareness and decision-making is mostly unrelated to key press.

    To be a bit simplistic, going into a bad place and running back to kill the add that spawned require more key presses in a shorter time than just not moving from the adequate place and being able to switch immediately to the add, yet it's actually playing better.
    I mean the difficulty of those aspects almost entirely depends on the complexity of your class/opponent and the pacing of the fight.
    Last edited by Alphatorg; 2019-09-11 at 05:14 PM.

  6. #446
    yea i agree, tbc was the hardest expansion

  7. #447
    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    The thing that's a thousands times harder is to go into a random cave and survive

  8. #448
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Everyone knows it except it doesn't appear on a single page on the internet. Alright bud.
    https://twitter.com/ghostcrawler/sta...396162?lang=en

    Enjoy bro, just to make sure you dont forget about it.

    PS. It was explained in detail in an interview later about exactly what he meant, but his comments below explain it quite well, if you can read.

  9. #449
    Quote Originally Posted by NineSpine View Post
    Difficult is defined by Oxford as follows:
    "Needing much effort or skill to accomplish, deal with, or understand."
    https://www.lexico.com/en/definition/difficult

    Effort
    OR
    Skill

    Something which requires significant amounts of effort, such as taking a lot of time and persistence, is difficult.

    You guys are straight up changing the definitions of words in order to facilitate your weird obsession with intentionally misunderstanding Classic fans.
    Yes, and there is nothing which requires any significant mental or physical effort outside of BfA high-end raiding. Spending a lot of time is not equal to making an effort. The very lenient, but yet present, skill floor does mean there is a small group of people who will find themselves challenged by Classic, but not by retail, but they are outliers and probably handicapped or afflicted by old age. Retail has basically no skill floor, so there's sort of a difficulty difference there, but it's really twisting the concept, when it only applies to a very specific subset of players.

    That doesn't mean that Classic fans are all handicapped or having one foot in the grave - far from it. As I've repeatedly mentioned, there are other reasons to enjoy the game. I'm perfectly fine with that. But the notion that Classic (or retail outside cutting edge raid and Mx content) is difficult? Simply absurd.
    Last edited by Ungeir; 2019-09-11 at 07:06 PM.

  10. #450
    Quote Originally Posted by Orby View Post
    Raiding for sure is easier, but leveling and dungeons are far more taxing than current, albeit more annoying.
    Not even close. Any Classic dungeon can be easily 3-manned by 3 hybrids of any kind. Don't even need dedicated tank/heals.

  11. #451
    I did ST last night. Group was 49-52. Hardly overlevelled. Bosses died in 30 seconds. We were all, "That was anti-climatic."

  12. #452
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzog View Post
    Currently leveling a Holy Paladin in a group, my first five talent points thus far have given me 2 intellect or 20 mana.

    Man I sure am glad we have these back. Can you imagine not being able to immerse yourself into this level of customization? Imagine if I had a choice of three new abilities by now, that'd just lead me to some cookie cutter bullshit.
    Let me talk about my "choices" of talents for Holy priest in BfA:

    1st talent: regen mana 10% more. I don't know at what level you have mana issues but it certainly isn't at level those levels of that tier. Compeletely worthless out of the gate.

    2nd talent: replicate 35% heal on previous target when healing a new target. Useful but nothing exciting because there are no mechanics at those levels that it has a huge impact.

    3rd talent: Single target heals refreshes Renew on target. Again, absolutely useless on those levels because you either never have to use renew or renew on it's own is enough to heal the target.

    How fun.

    Edit: just had a thought, if retails tuning were the same as classic, these choices would have had a noticeable and fun impact. 10% mana reg is super useful always in classic, cleave healing would be fun in dungeons and renewing renew free is always beneficial.
    Last edited by Dergiab; 2019-09-12 at 07:57 AM.

  13. #453
    Quote Originally Posted by Eapoe View Post
    Look up multiple threads and you will see plenty of people stating Vanilla is harder, and even one where someone posted a YouTube video to show how Naxx Vanilla was harder based on raw numbers.
    And I wonder who they are. I suspect they are people who never played vanilla, or even hard content in retail. Vanilla is praised, and playing classic now, I also really like it, but it baffles me how people can praise it cause of it's difficulty. Leveling leaves corpses around, but that's about it

  14. #454
    Quote Originally Posted by Alempa View Post
    Dont get me wrong, leveling is much harder (well.. slower) than retail.


    But all this "Raids were harder" or "You actually needed to CC mobs in dungeons!"
    Dont, its false. Yeah CC to some degree, but NOT nearly as much as in retail wow with mythic +.


    Please dont use the argument "Classic isn't Vanilla" nothing changed dungeon wise.
    i never said it was harder
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  15. #455
    Quote Originally Posted by Wickedtongue View Post
    Not even close. Any Classic dungeon can be easily 3-manned by 3 hybrids of any kind. Don't even need dedicated tank/heals.
    Considering tank could solo all BFA dungeons atm up to +10, 3 manned dungeon is definitely harder than soloable dungeon.

  16. #456
    Quote Originally Posted by Dergiab View Post
    Let me talk about my "choices" of talents for Holy priest in BfA:

    1st talent: regen mana 10% more. I don't know at what level you have mana issues but it certainly isn't at level those levels of that tier. Compeletely worthless out of the gate.

    2nd talent: replicate 35% heal on previous target when healing a new target. Useful but nothing exciting because there are no mechanics at those levels that it has a huge impact.

    3rd talent: Single target heals refreshes Renew on target. Again, absolutely useless on those levels because you either never have to use renew or renew on it's own is enough to heal the target.

    How fun.

    Edit: just had a thought, if retails tuning were the same as classic, these choices would have had a noticeable and fun impact. 10% mana reg is super useful always in classic, cleave healing would be fun in dungeons and renewing renew free is always beneficial.
    Imagine writing out a synopsis of what each talent does and how it might affect the later build and saying that's somehow inferior to getting 20 mana, and that being all that's good for until about 30.

    But hey at least by then I'll also have +12% more healing and the spell knockback reduction. My chest swells with mind blowing gameplay decisions. "IF retail's tuning were the same as classic, these choices would have had a noticable and fun impact" fucking what lol, I got 20 mana for my first five points, 30 if my bro-mage hits me with Arcane Intellect. My friend would get +5% Parry or more Rend damage (which you have to take, since another important talent is locked behind it) as an Arms warrior instead of one of two new skills or a new rage regeneration passive, all three of which have "Hey I mean, you could use any of these if you prefer the playstyle." What the fuck am I gonna do as an HPal instead, take Divine Strength? Man these options have such a noticable and fun impact.

    Look, I get it, you don't have an actual platform beyond "I like this and don't like that", you've never actually designed anything in your life, and that's fine, but don't piss in my ear and tell me it's raining and that the old talent system is somehow more "noticable" other than they put a "You get to PUSH a BUTTON that will BARELY CHANGE the CORE GAMEPLAY of your CLASS. WHOOOA. :shocked pikachu:" carrot in front of your face.

    I'm waiting for the full 180 when people start saying that the fact you can use almost any talent in any build in evil, evil retail just means your choices don't mean anything and being locked into cookie cutter builds is akshually the superior gameplay model. Then we'll have come all the way.
    Last edited by Khuzog; 2019-09-12 at 02:21 PM.

  17. #457
    Quote Originally Posted by anon5123 View Post
    Hate to burst your "muh vanilla experiunz" bubble, but even on private servers with patch 1.1 itemization, MC still dropped in 1 week.
    Fastest Rag clear I'm aware of on a private server with the itemization you outlined was day 9, which is 50% longer than on classic where <APES> cleared on day 6. It seems that itemization did play a role in killing faster. As well as bugged dungeon exp giving 290%, bugged demo shout threat tanking, and allowing 10 people in a 5 man dungeon with no experience penalty.

    Shocked someone would actually deny that these are huge contributing factors...

  18. #458
    Quote Originally Posted by The-loon View Post
    Fastest Rag clear I'm aware of on a private server with the itemization you outlined was day 9, which is 50% longer than on classic where <APES> cleared on day 6. It seems that itemization did play a role in killing faster. As well as bugged dungeon exp giving 290%, bugged demo shout threat tanking, and allowing 10 people in a 5 man dungeon with no experience penalty.

    Shocked someone would actually deny that these are huge contributing factors...
    You seriously think that people having a few more stats on their gear is a larger contribution than bugged dungeons causing people to level way faster?

    Fuckin' lulz m8

    good bait, 10/10 got me to reply

  19. #459
    Blizzard themselves say it wasn't harder
    The best players in the world say it wasn't harder
    The vast majority who play and played the game say it wasn't harder

    At what point do we simply agree to ignore the nutjobs?

  20. #460
    Quote Originally Posted by Khuzog View Post

    I'm waiting for the full 180 when people start saying that the fact you can use almost any talent in any build in evil, evil retail just means your choices don't mean anything and being locked into cookie cutter builds is akshually the superior gameplay model. Then we'll have come all the way.
    The talent choices in retail means nothing because they have barely any impact whatsoever until level 100 or higher. Maybe you don't care about that, but I think it's horsepoop.

    I'd be fine with retail talent structure if they impacted gameplay at their level, not just endgame.
    Last edited by Dergiab; 2019-09-12 at 02:47 PM.

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