Why exactly are people so anti-LFR?

[Saverem]

No they won't. They just won't raid and they will just leave for Fortnight faster. The act of not having it is what is detrimental.

Yeah, just like we're seeing from Classic. Look at all the people leaving because they can't take 2 steps without aggroing and dying to a pack of mobs and then having to run 10 min back to their corpse. Game is so hard and inconvenient that's why there's barely anyone playing it. Definitely.

[TheRevenantHero]

You don't keep up with Wow news, do you? Couple years ago there was a private server that was beyond popular and it was shut down. Not only did Blizzard force the shut down with legal action, they met personally with the hosts of the server to discuss why people were drawn to it and what that means for the live version of the game. And, in case you don't remember, they have discussed it before on the forums when players have asked for official Vanilla servers. The answers ranged from 'no' to 'unable to recreate original game' to 'wouldn't mesh well with all the changes so far' to 'we have no intention of ever doing this.'

All that changed when Nostralius was taken down. That is the catalyst that led us to this point. Not live server retention. Classic has absolutely nothing to do with live servers, in case you haven't noticed. Nothing is shared. Nothing is available from live, not even server names and locations of classic players... while you're logged in.

And then there's the story about where the classic code actually came from... an old hard drive with an intact data table from the very last version of vanilla, before TBC launched... code they though didn't exist anymore. Obviously they didn't keep it archived. So, to take something they flat out refused to do before, didn't even think was possible, and bring it to this point: is a 180 degree change in tone, attitude, and design philosophy.

But it's cute that you think I'm some sort of fan boy. I'm just a guy giving you the facts. Take em as you will.



According to Blizzard, Classic servers are much more capable of handling the population of people on them than they originally were in vanilla. Layering has been added to these servers so that the load of players on any one server can be handled in a way that still allows for the players to interact with the world without being bogged down by the thousands of players actively logging in and playing in any given area, per server.

I linked a screen shot earlier of the servers at 9pm PST tonight. Only one server had low pop. Nine had medium population (mind you, this is the entire server pop across all layers, not just the estimate per layer), and 5 were Full. The rest were all high pop. Wed also saw the opening of free character transfers on classic realms with full or high populations to lower population servers. There are 35 Classic servers right now. That isn't a small amount, especially considering they are layered to accommodate more than the standard limit. Queue times happen on full servers and it's happening despite layers. Would be way worse without them.

If people were really going back to BFA, they wouldn't be offering server transfers or opening new realms. The facts just don't agree with you. The facts show an overwhelming amount of interest in Classic, to the point of needing fixes to layers, new realms being opened, and server transfers being made available.



The 'tired old game' is the game of releasing new content ad finitum just because it's time to placate more players. I wasn't referring to the actual game in any specific state. Blizzard has been playing this game since Wotlk saw concurrent subscriber counts begin to fall off. Anyone who has been around for more than 1 or 2 expansions is familiar with it and gives up the ghost to it, eventually. You realize that the only thing wow is ever going to do, is replace the content you're currently doing with something that makes it obsolete. That cycle is going to continue until the game stops being recognizable. No one is going to escape it.

The stark difference is that Classic is a game that hasn't been available in 13 years. In 2007, when TBC launched, that version of the game stopped existing. People no longer embarked on the journey with the difficulty and tedium of players before. The amount of XP required to level to 60 was reduced. Things that were deemed clunky were altered or removed from the game, replaced by things deemed 'more streamlined.' Like Dungeon Finder. Who needs to sit in trade looking for people to play with when you can press the magic button and be placed into a group? No additional effort necessary!

Nevermind the pros that come with being able to pick your party. Such as not picking known dbags who ruin groups. Or making sure you have the right stuff from the beginning. In the live version of Wow, none of this matters. You literally just queue for everything, take whoever shows up, succeed where you should fail, and being a cohesive group doesn't matter until you want to start pushing ratings in pvp or raiding harder content than LFR.

When a player decides that those aspects of the game just don't matter until level cap, well then they become a devalued part of the game. That's what we need to avoid with proper game development. Classic is an opportunity to value those aspects of the game again. This time around, maybe we appreciate it and don't let it slip away as easily.



You mean, the stuff that Blizzard keeps putting out so you'll stay subbed? That stuff to do? Staying power is people hosting private servers for the last ~15 years to play a version of the game that doesn't exist anywhere else anymore. Do some homework, there are private servers for more than just classic. Some have Blizzlike enviroments authentic for the patch. Others have speed leveling or instant level caps or custom content. You have Vanilla, TBC, WoTLK, Cata, and even MoP private servers. Probably even wod/legion/bfa servers (though I can't really see why).

The fact of the matter is that staying power has to be rooted in something that actually... stays around. The cyclical nature and fix-what-isn't-broken attitude of Blizzard has made sure that nothing about Wow actually has staying power. Except change. The thing you can count on... not being able to even participate in original quest content without finding a private server or having Blizzard re release classic.

LOL. STAYING POWER!

And the rest of your post really doesn't matter. Classic isn't designed to be the perfect gaming experience. It's deeply flawed in some aspects and requires more effort than one should have to put forth, to even play it. But the experience rewards the social ingenuity of extroverted people wanting to do things they can't do on their own, which is why it becomes perfect in the minds of those who play it.

We know that there isn't going to be some silly panda-ridden war-torn-by-plot-holes content upgrade that ruins Classic again. In the respect that you get to experience a version of the game that demands more of you, and will get to do it at your own pace again, it is the perfect version of the game. Far more than any retail live version could be.

*sigh* I'm not gonna bother with a long post again. You are obviously heavily biased and are pretty much declaring that your opinions are fact. Classic hasn't been out even a month. Every WoW expansion has a population explosion and Classic is no different. I fully expect Classic numbers to drastically drop by the end of month 2. To say that the popularity of Classic right now is proof that Classic will be more populated that Modern is just not genuine. There's been a lot of hype prior to launch so of course the servers are gonna be populated.

What you think ruins the game is your opinion. But to say that classic is perfect is just ridiculous. Because it really really isn't perfect at all. But as I said, you have fun playing a 15 year old game and I'll have fun playing Modern.

[Aliven]

Yeah, just like we're seeing from Classic. Look at all the people leaving because they can't take 2 steps without aggroing and dying to a pack of mobs and then having to run 10 min back to their corpse. Game is so hard and inconvenient that's why there's barely anyone playing it. Definitely.

The Gods spoken about it in the ancient past. People would sooner quit than endure toxic pool which is raiding community. Or because of shedules. Or working shifts. Or real life obligations.

Also, i can play classic on MY OWN TIME, whenever I WANT, how long I WANT, and i can split 30/40 min WHEN I WANT.
Dont need other people also

[Jibjub]

So, you are telling me you cannot manually form your own group? That is news to mythic raiders. I also find it funny that somehow a tool that you don't use can affect you since you don't even touch it. Oh right, you are one of the elitists who want to control who accesses the content so you can be a special snowflake. Got it now.

- - - Updated - - -

Then don't play it. Problem solved.

I'm not. I am playing Classic.

But "don't play it" is a flawed argument. Games are an ecosystem. All major systems affect the entire ecosystem. And players are a part of that ecosystem. As someone who ran a small guide, LFR was TERRIBLE. It made recruiting much harder ... when you offer a path of least resistance, A LOT of people will take it. For example ... I bet if they added a "solo" raid mode that you could run without having to queue, where all the other raid slots are filled with AI, this would have far-reaching implications on the entire game. If you gave the solo mode a similar reward as the hardest modes ... how do you think that would affect hardcore raiding guilds? Would you just say, "if you don't like solo mode, then don't do it?"

[bullseyed]

Wtf? no. Because you can easily get a friend to say it and go "HERP DERP SEE THEY SAID IT YOU GET BANNED NAO." Grow up.

Interesting that you have chosen to admit to trolling then.

[TheRevenantHero]

Interesting that you have chosen to admit to trolling then.

If anyone is trolling, it's you. Saying "If I'm right you need to accept a permaban" is either a troll or incredibly immature. Pick one.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm not. I am playing Classic.

But "don't play it" is a flawed argument. Games are an ecosystem. All major systems affect the entire ecosystem. And players are a part of that ecosystem. As someone who ran a small guide, LFR was TERRIBLE. It made recruiting much harder ... when you offer a path of least resistance, A LOT of people will take it. For example ... I bet if they added a "solo" raid mode that you could run without having to queue, where all the other raid slots are filled with AI, this would have far-reaching implications on the entire game. If you gave the solo mode a similar reward as the hardest modes ... how do you think that would affect hardcore raiding guilds? Would you just say, "if you don't like solo mode, then don't do it?"

No, what's flawed is expecting everyone to share one opinion on how the game is run. Majority rules and the majority likes to play LFR. Nothing is forcing you to use it. If you're having issue with finding people, then that's just your server's community. When I was a raid leader in a guild, I never had issues with LFR ruining my chance at finding recruits. And LFR doesn't give anywhere NEAR as good of gear as Mythic so the comment of "If you gave the solo mode a similar reward as the hardest modes" isn't needed at all because that's not happening. Sure, sometimes gear can warforge and titanforge but that incredibly rare. So the other difficulties will still provide better rewards.

[Jibjub]

If anyone is trolling, it's you. Saying "If I'm right you need to accept a permaban" is either a troll or incredibly immature. Pick one.

- - - Updated - - -



No, what's flawed is expecting everyone to share one opinion on how the game is run. Majority rules and the majority likes to play LFR. Nothing is forcing you to use it. If you're having issue with finding people, then that's just your server's community. When I was a raid leader in a guild, I never had issues with LFR ruining my chance at finding recruits. And LFR doesn't give anywhere NEAR as good of gear as Mythic so the comment of "If you gave the solo mode a similar reward as the hardest modes" isn't needed at all because that's not happening. Sure, sometimes gear can warforge and titanforge but that incredibly rare. So the other difficulties will still provide better rewards.

The guy in charge of the game while designing it admitted it was a mistake (Ghostcrawler). But sure, random moron on MMO-Champ, you understand how game design works.

You miss the point. The example of gear was to prove a point how game decisions affect everyone, even those who "aren't using it" ... because the argument "if you don't like it, don't use it" is poor logic.

[TheRevenantHero]

The guy in charge of the game while designing it admitted it was a mistake (Ghostcrawler). But sure, random moron on MMO-Champ, you understand how game design works.

You miss the point. The example of gear was to prove a point how game decisions affect everyone, even those who "aren't using it" ... because the argument "if you don't like it, don't use it" is poor logic.

Except Ghostcrawler is a salty asshole that takes any chance to say something negative about WoW. Every other WoW dev agrees that LFR has been a good addition to the game. And it's not poor logic at all. Just don't do LFR if you don't like it so much. Literally nothing is stopping you from finding a guild and doing the other raid difficulties.

[KaPe]

The guy in charge of the game while designing it admitted it was a mistake (Ghostcrawler). But sure, random moron on MMO-Champ, you understand how game design works.

You miss the point. The example of gear was to prove a point how game decisions affect everyone, even those who "aren't using it" ... because the argument "if you don't like it, don't use it" is poor logic.

Ghostcrawler wasn't even in Blizzard when he admitted it, plus he isn't some unbiased source of developers' opinions. But sure, "random moron on MMO-champ", one former Blizzard employee speaking against something is a sure proof that it's the worst thing ever.

[Khuzog]

The guy in charge of the game while designing it admitted it was a mistake (Ghostcrawler). But sure, random moron on MMO-Champ, you understand how game design works.

You miss the point. The example of gear was to prove a point how game decisions affect everyone, even those who "aren't using it" ... because the argument "if you don't like it, don't use it" is poor logic.

"I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that's the first one that came to mind.

To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now."

Hmmmm sounds more like he doesn't like how the implementation turned out and that the game has probably moved on and fixed what he didn't like about it - which incidentally isn't "remove" BTW. He does say he'd maybe remove it if you literally held a gun to his head and forced a decision on the matter.

Sauce BTW since it sounds like you either never fucking read it, or just read it exclusively how you wanted to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofleg...treet/d7jwm98/

Sorry about your gatekeeping, btw. As a mythic raider I also have to punch my desk a few times every day when I see other people having the audacity to enjoy the game. It's all my raid group talks about too. Just from pull to pull. About those fucking casuals experiencing the fucking game like the lot of greedy mooches they are.

Really butters my almonds.

What game are you working on btw, random moron on MMO-Champ? I'd love to see some of your design docs! You seem really educated on this subject!

[Black Goat]

The guy in charge of the game while designing it admitted it was a mistake (Ghostcrawler). But sure, random moron on MMO-Champ, you understand how game design works.

You miss the point. The example of gear was to prove a point how game decisions affect everyone, even those who "aren't using it" ... because the argument "if you don't like it, don't use it" is poor logic.

I wouldn't invest too much of yourself into this thread, man. I've tried providing logical reasons as to why LFR is a bad feature in the game. None of those posts received replies. The echo chamber that's been created in this thread is typical. The "pro-LFR" people are free to call us special snowflakes and elitists and an assortment of other names without fear of infraction or citation, it seems. It'd be awfully nice if a moderator would PM me and inform me of why this is allowed to happen. I labeled some of them as toxic and received an infraction, yet I've been called toxic numerous times to no avail. They're free to insult and make derogatory comments until their hearts are content. I've reported several posts that are CLEARLY in violation of forum rules and they don't seem to receive any disciplinary action. Apparently it's supported. To think MMO-C management has the nerve to ask for my money to help support the site when things like this are happening.

Regardless, people with common sense realize why Blizzard employees aren't condemning game features. Blizzard employees value their jobs, obviously, for the same reason it's frowned upon to speak negatively about ANY company that employs you. Ghostcrawler remained vocal and honest after his employment. He was just the most notable one that vocalized it. There's one person in here that will make claims that "every other Blizzard employee emphatically agrees that LFR is amazing!" without ever being able to post any of those imaginary comments. I've asked for sources and you can guess how that went.

I personally take solace knowing that, deep down, I know why LFR is so important to these individuals. They are the ones the system was made for, so they can even see the raid and our opinions and theories endanger their space. No other logical reasons presents itself to me as to why they would defend it so vehemently.

[Eroginous]

*sigh* I'm not gonna bother with a long post again. You are obviously heavily biased and are pretty much declaring that your opinions are fact. Classic hasn't been out even a month. Every WoW expansion has a population explosion and Classic is no different. I fully expect Classic numbers to drastically drop by the end of month 2. To say that the popularity of Classic right now is proof that Classic will be more populated that Modern is just not genuine. There's been a lot of hype prior to launch so of course the servers are gonna be populated.

I'm heavily biased? You act like I don't like Wow. You assume that I'm some ardent fanboi who wants Classic to be the new Cash Cow and primary focus of Blizzard development. I've played this game since 2004. I've witness nearly every expansion and major patch change, and because I've played since 2004, I've gotten a front row seat to watch how those changes affect the world on a greater level than just how an individual player perceives the game he's probably only played for one or two expansions.

I've had strong positive feelings about every expansion I've participated in. I've enjoyed them. Hell, I've maxed out characters in every expansion since TBC. That's 6 times I've completely restarted my characters' progress to do new content and get to endgame again. SIX times! How many times do I need to do that before my experience is relevant? If I had played Legion or BFA, it would have been 8 times. If I had stuck around for next expansion? NINE. Nine times I've taken one or more of my characters, progressed it through the latest expansion content (and the patches that come between) and max geared it out.

Nine. Times. To do it again. To expect something new or better from it, is the definition of insanity. This game is not changing for the better anymore, anyone honest with themselves would admit that. Another expansion is almost predictable down to the next new shiny features, because Blizzard has painted themselves into a casual corner with all their work to make the game accessible over the years. I've spent a lot of time on these and the Wow forums supporting each expansion and patch that comes out with 'improvements' for the game. I thought LFR would be great. I thought CRZ would be amazing. I supported DF and shared instance servers. Anything to get more people to play with!

But I was wrong. I supported many things over the years that ultimately only made this game too accessible for a single minded player in a massively multiplayer world. You can experience the entire game in all it's content glory without having anyone on your friends list. Without grouping up manually for anything. Without anyone even liking you well enough to tolerate your presence. You can buy game, login, instant buff your character to the current content, and then hit the new cap within 3 days of casual play, without knowing a single thing about your class. You can fail your way through the content...

When I can hit the new caps in such trivial fashion, it's no longer a meaningful part of the game to engage in. When I can gear up and have multiple characters raid ready in weeks, it's no longer a meaningful part of the game to engage in. When I don't need the help of others to accomplish more than the hardest designated content and can just buy a carry through that if I really wanted, that's no longer a meaningful part of the game to engage in. These are factual statements, not a matter of opinion from a biased perspective. This is what I've watched happen over the years. Changes that lead to this effect.

I spent 2 long years progressing through WoD content after having my original 2004 account banned in MoP. One where I was playing 4 max level characters. A new player who started during legion or BFA has no concept of what I did during WoD. No understanding of the time spent or the devotion to progression I had. And they would dismiss WoD out of hand as trivial BS content just because they are doing Legion or BFA.

Because that is what every biased wow player does. If we're not talking about the content you're currently on, the conversation is shit show of epeening and posturing that devolves into nothing while the people who were actually there, know what is up. I played through WoD, MoP, Cata, Wotlk, TBC, AND vanilla. I progressed in raiding until cata, when raiding stopped having any meaningful impact on the average player. I'll let you guess what major feature accomplished that...

The point, is that nothing I did will ever mean anything to a player doing current retail content. That's just how players are. If it's not this current content, it's not relevant. If you're hanging onto some previous version of the game you happen to think is superior, that's just rose colored nostalgia talking... And so when there's official legacy content directly competing with Retail content, the people on Retail will always act like you about the people who profess any interest in the legacy content.

It's not a new conversation, previous content vs current, either. It is the same thing every expansion. New players enjoy the newest content more (unsurprisingly). Veteran players like this version but really enjoyed X, Y, or Z content that came before because that's likely when they started the game... Player psychology isn't difficult. Pretty binary. Really predictable. What I'm saying to you here is there is significantly more data for a company like Blizzard to consider, than just what comes from BFA realms. Blizzard is a company who parses data to make changes for the better. That's why we have this version of the game to begin with.

There is no one at Blizzard making sure a specific design philosophy is followed or a particular aspect of the game preserved. Arguably, the heart of an MMO is the social aspect. Everything else succeeds or fails because of it. Class balance, content design, feature set, all take a backseat to the one thing defining the MMO genre: social construct. In case you still haven't gotten it, players are willing to participate in poorly implemented, inefficient design, with flat out broken mechanics, so long as they can be apart of a meaningful social construct (*cough* Classic).

I'm willing to admit that BFA is both better designed than Classic, and better supported than Classic by the dev team. But the social experience that I am having RN in Classic, the social experience I and others will continue to have as the content slate rolls out, is going to provide Blizzard with some undeniable metrics that will forever change how they develop content across the board for both retail and classic, moving forward. Ignorance is the only way one could ignore these facts.

Call it whatever you want to, Classic only reaffirms what so many players have said over the years: there is a better social construct to be had than what we've been given over the last 15 years through the tools Blizzard has added to the game. This social construct is winning right now as the Classic realms struggle to handle the load. But yeah, your heavily manipulated BFA population is really enjoying the content still! Realms r so FULL... of CRZ'd players merged with your realm to have the appearance of being populated.

Isn't that annoying to some degree? Like, you are on X realm, you see players from all these other realms running around your capital cities? Just obnoxious, what's the point of having servers anymore?

[Jibjub]

"I have a lot of regrets about Raid Finder for WoW. I am sure I worked on features that were much, much worse, but that's the first one that came to mind.

To be clear, the goal of getting more players into raiding is a good one. But the way Raid Finder turned out removed, IMO anyway, a lot of the epicness of what made raiding raiding. I also haven't played WoW in a few years, so it's entirely possible they have solved the problem by now."

Hmmmm sounds more like he doesn't like how the implementation turned out and that the game has probably moved on and fixed what he didn't like about it - which incidentally isn't "remove" BTW. He does say he'd maybe remove it if you literally held a gun to his head and forced a decision on the matter.

Sauce BTW since it sounds like you either never fucking read it, or just read it exclusively how you wanted to:

https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueofleg...treet/d7jwm98/

Sorry about your gatekeeping, btw. As a mythic raider I also have to punch my desk a few times every day when I see other people having the audacity to enjoy the game. It's all my raid group talks about too. Just from pull to pull. About those fucking casuals experiencing the fucking game like the lot of greedy mooches they are.

Really butters my almonds.

What game are you working on btw, random moron on MMO-Champ? I'd love to see some of your design docs! You seem really educated on this subject!

What do you mean you don't think I read it? He was asked what his biggest regret as a game designer was IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER and LFR came to mind lol. You failed to quote that his answer was to that question. And they have definitely NOT "solved" the issue by now.

Would you be pro-solo mode? Just running raids with AI? And do you think this wouldn't have any implications on the game, even for people who don't play it? What about solo battlegrounds and dungeons? How about an option to play solo in the world?

I personally think LFR is terrible for the game. But my original point was that "if you don't like it, don't do it" is flawed. Games are an ecosystem. I can not even be aware of a feature and it can negatively affect my experience as a player, let alone opt out of a feature.

- - - Updated - - -

Except Ghostcrawler is a salty asshole that takes any chance to say something negative about WoW. Every other WoW dev agrees that LFR has been a good addition to the game. And it's not poor logic at all. Just don't do LFR if you don't like it so much. Literally nothing is stopping you from finding a guild and doing the other raid difficulties.

If you insist on sticking your head into the sand, I can't stop you. But this is common sense. "Just don't do it" is flawed logic. EVERYTHING affects the player. Even features you don't know about will affect your experience.

LFR lowers the pool of competent players in an already dying game. Yes, this will effect my ability to recruit casual players to raid on higher difficulties. Why wipe over and over for 4 hours when I can "see" it for free without even trying?

How do you not understand this?

[WinningOne]

From a progression standpoint, there's absolutely no reason whatsoever to step foot into LFR - you can get as good or better gear just by doing dailies. The only reason anybody does LFR is likely because it's a way for them to see content they otherwise wouldn't see likely because they're too busy to be in an active raiding guild or don't care to invest that much time into the game. So what exactly is the problem with allowing "casuals" to see this content when they're not even being rewarded for it? Why is LFR such a major talking point for classic fanboys and the like? How does it affect your gameplay at all? I personally don't use LFR and forget it exists most of the time so I struggle to understand why so many people have such an issue with it when the only thing people get from it is trash gear (hardly the "free epixx" people frame it as).

Dislike for LFR is a symptom which exists in someone whose personal worth is wrapped up in their perception of themselves as a superior gamer compared to other players.

[Ekis]

Generally I'm anti-LFR because of the mentality of the playerbase that plays it. LFR as a concept isn't bad, but those who play within it turn me away.

I used to be a hardcore raider from BC all the way up to Legion (BFA honestly is ocean-wide yet puddle deep in terms of content). I've tried running in LFR even just to see how well I could do and in helping others. I've also played casually when I didn't feel like putting in the time/effort was worth it, but I also didn't expect to see content because I paid a subscription.

Most of the LFR crowd generally holds one to all of these mindsets:

• "I don't have time to raid"
• "People who raid in guilds are elitist pricks"
• "I have a life/job/wife,etc. and can't be arsed to raid on a schedule"
• "I don't like dealing with other people/I have social anxiety issues"
• "I pay $15 to play however I want to"

To which are pretty asinine when it comes to playing an MMORPG. For those who say "I don't have time to raid" or "I have a life/job", in reality they're saying "I don't have the patience". They want to see the content without putting in the effort to actually being part of a group/researching what it takes to kill on pretty much any other difficulty. And it's really illogical.

WoW has never been hard, hell even Mythic difficulty raids aren't hard if someone has a modicum of critical-thinking skills (which most of us should have assuming we're in high school or functioning adults). Especially with addons such as Deadly Boss Mods or GTFO. Of course, this isn't always the case and some things are genuinely unbeatable (see: Mythic Kil'jaeden or vanilla C'thun) but those things are exceptions.

Now I get it, a lot of people don't have much time to do anything, especially us adults with families to look after. But much like anything, whether it be in real life or in a video game, without some kind of investment you can't really expect decent return/reward.

Many of the people I've seen in LFR's are the people who don't play nice with others/don't want to. And that's fine, their prerogative. But don't expect raid-equivalent gear when you aren't willing to invest time into earning it. Seeing content has never really been the issue before either; people could see content via streams and YouTube videos (or WarcraftMovies when it was around) of others willing to dedicate themselves to either being the best or getting the best.

People prioritize things they want to be good at. Plainly put, people who consider raiding a non-priority in a game shouldn't expect to walk into it and steamroll it, let alone walk out with best of the best gear or some semblance of it. Some people have natural talent (or amazing luck) but for the rest of the world it's hard work and determination to get the best. But I've seen some of the biggest egotistical players come into raids with missing enchants/gems, incorrect gems (AGI gems on a Warlock, for example), refuse to learn/accept criticism, and/or simply not give a damn yet demand to be treated like someone who's devoted time and effort to getting the best, usually for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.

But let's be real: People wouldn't do LFR if there weren't rewards attached to it. It's simply "rewards without the challenge". If it was really about seeing the content, they'd be fine with no rewards as long as they got to participate. Sure, there are those who are like this, but they are a minority of a minority. The majority of players, however, use this as a way to get gear with minimal effort. A majority of them have a much time as others to play if they wanted to get into Normal/Heroic/Mythic content, but don't care or don't want to put in the effort to earning it but would gladly have their hand out for the gear.

TL;DR: The player base is what generally makes people anti-LFR. LFR as it currently stands promotes anti-social/selfish behavior which is antithetical to the concept of raiding and MMO gaming in general.

[Shakana]

Generally I'm anti-LFR because of the mentality of the playerbase that plays it. LFR as a concept isn't bad, but those who play within it turn me away.

I used to be a hardcore raider from BC all the way up to Legion (BFA honestly is ocean-wide yet puddle deep in terms of content). I've tried running in LFR even just to see how well I could do and in helping others. I've also played casually when I didn't feel like putting in the time/effort was worth it, but I also didn't expect to see content because I paid a subscription.

Most of the LFR crowd generally holds one to all of these mindsets:

• "I don't have time to raid"
• "People who raid in guilds are elitist pricks"
• "I have a life/job/wife,etc. and can't be arsed to raid on a schedule"
• "I don't like dealing with other people/I have social anxiety issues"
• "I pay $15 to play however I want to"

To which are pretty asinine when it comes to playing an MMORPG. For those who say "I don't have time to raid" or "I have a life/job", in reality they're saying "I don't have the patience". They want to see the content without putting in the effort to actually being part of a group/researching what it takes to kill on pretty much any other difficulty. And it's really illogical.

WoW has never been hard, hell even Mythic difficulty raids aren't hard if someone has a modicum of critical-thinking skills (which most of us should have assuming we're in high school or functioning adults). Especially with addons such as Deadly Boss Mods or GTFO. Of course, this isn't always the case and some things are genuinely unbeatable (see: Mythic Kil'jaeden or vanilla C'thun) but those things are exceptions.

Now I get it, a lot of people don't have much time to do anything, especially us adults with families to look after. But much like anything, whether it be in real life or in a video game, without some kind of investment you can't really expect decent return/reward.

Many of the people I've seen in LFR's are the people who don't play nice with others/don't want to. And that's fine, their prerogative. But don't expect raid-equivalent gear when you aren't willing to invest time into earning it. Seeing content has never really been the issue before either; people could see content via streams and YouTube videos (or WarcraftMovies when it was around) of others willing to dedicate themselves to either being the best or getting the best.

People prioritize things they want to be good at. Plainly put, people who consider raiding a non-priority in a game shouldn't expect to walk into it and steamroll it, let alone walk out with best of the best gear or some semblance of it. Some people have natural talent (or amazing luck) but for the rest of the world it's hard work and determination to get the best. But I've seen some of the biggest egotistical players come into raids with missing enchants/gems, incorrect gems (AGI gems on a Warlock, for example), refuse to learn/accept criticism, and/or simply not give a damn yet demand to be treated like someone who's devoted time and effort to getting the best, usually for reasons that have absolutely nothing to do with the game itself.

But let's be real: People wouldn't do LFR if there weren't rewards attached to it. It's simply "rewards without the challenge". If it was really about seeing the content, they'd be fine with no rewards as long as they got to participate. Sure, there are those who are like this, but they are a minority of a minority. The majority of players, however, use this as a way to get gear with minimal effort. A majority of them have a much time as others to play if they wanted to get into Normal/Heroic/Mythic content, but don't care or don't want to put in the effort to earning it but would gladly have their hand out for the gear.

TL;DR: The player base is what generally makes people anti-LFR. LFR as it currently stands promotes anti-social/selfish behavior which is antithetical to the concept of raiding and MMO gaming in general.

Well elaborated with truth

[Twdft]

LFR lowers the pool of competent players in an already dying game. Yes, this will effect my ability to recruit casual players to raid on higher difficulties. Why wipe over and over for 4 hours when I can "see" it for free without even trying?

How do you not understand this?

Organized raiding is and always was a niche activity of about 10% of players. LfR is seen by more than 50%. All those players who you think don't apply to join your raid were not raiding before LfR. With LfR they go inside to see the raid, but still they do not apply to your recruitment. For the same reasons they didn't before LfR.

Why do you think all those LfR players (I know I sound like a broken record here) who didn't raid before LfR will raid if you take LfR away?

[Eroginous]

Dislike for LFR is a symptom which exists in someone whose personal worth is wrapped up in their perception of themselves as a superior gamer compared to other players.

Some people are, sure. But others are coming at this discussion from the perspective of a player who has experienced a version of the game which was socially superior... and didn't include LFR. Whether or not it was socially superior is a fact we can establish by the participation of players concurrently over the years, which we know is extremely cyclical. Any game with over 100 million total unique players but less than 12 million concurrent... has to be treated as a failing game.

There is no way you can conclude that Wow is successful in their ongoing development with numbers like that. It just doesn't pan out, you're staring at a mass exodus of players that correlates to sweeping game changes on a predictable cycle. We can infer that the same thing is going to happen when after next expansion announcement and launch, and if it does in fact hold true (like it has thus far) we can conclude that not making these sweeping content changes and additions, would likely retain higher concurrent subscriber counts.

You have to remove the impactful behavior to reverse the effects of it. I don't dislike LFR, I just don't see any point to it beyond quickly filling gear gaps or getting extra loots each week. It isn't a challenging aspect of the game nor is it rewarded as a challenging aspect. It's simply there to provide access to people who otherwise would struggle to raid, and it has to be acknowledged that way. It cannot be touted as a superior or necessary feature in a game that necessarily requires a higher degree of social interaction in order to make actual meaningful progression happen.

If you insist on sticking your head into the sand, I can't stop you. But this is common sense. "Just don't do it" is flawed logic. EVERYTHING affects the player. Even features you don't know about will affect your experience.

LFR lowers the pool of competent players in an already dying game. Yes, this will effect my ability to recruit casual players to raid on higher difficulties. Why wipe over and over for 4 hours when I can "see" it for free without even trying?

How do you not understand this?

Exactly this. There is genuinely a segment of the player base that has only experienced the game from this super casual, catered perspective. This isn't good or bad per se, it just doesn't amount to the same social engagement offered by older versions of the game that didn't include this super casual, catered perspective. One only has to have experienced both to understand this, and players who refuse to acknowledge the ultra casual nature of today's game, tend to be the ones refusing to acknowledge anything else as being a legitimate version of the game.

[Malikath]

My point is, it doesn't affect you if a new person boosts and levels to cap and just does LFR.

it does when LFRtards complaining leads to game-wide changes like the troll ghosts in ToT.
or the systematic removal of determinate reward mechanics and loot controlling options to conform to the LFR-centric design of the game.


but, yeah fuck Epic Games.
fuck them since A:cm and DN:F.
and if even half of what's being alleged about randy is true, he can literally go burn in hell.

[TheRevenantHero]

What do you mean you don't think I read it? He was asked what his biggest regret as a game designer was IN HIS ENTIRE CAREER and LFR came to mind lol. You failed to quote that his answer was to that question. And they have definitely NOT "solved" the issue by now.

Would you be pro-solo mode? Just running raids with AI? And do you think this wouldn't have any implications on the game, even for people who don't play it? What about solo battlegrounds and dungeons? How about an option to play solo in the world?

I personally think LFR is terrible for the game. But my original point was that "if you don't like it, don't do it" is flawed. Games are an ecosystem. I can not even be aware of a feature and it can negatively affect my experience as a player, let alone opt out of a feature.

- - - Updated - - -



If you insist on sticking your head into the sand, I can't stop you. But this is common sense. "Just don't do it" is flawed logic. EVERYTHING affects the player. Even features you don't know about will affect your experience.

LFR lowers the pool of competent players in an already dying game. Yes, this will effect my ability to recruit casual players to raid on higher difficulties. Why wipe over and over for 4 hours when I can "see" it for free without even trying?

How do you not understand this?

If LFR was as damaging as you claim, there would be no mythic raiding guilds anymore. But there's still hundreds of guilds that still run LFR. So the comment of "don't do it if you don't like it" isn't flawed. Sorry your server's raid community sucks. Maybe try looking on another server?