Arcane torrent needed nerf but shadowmeld is fine??

[Kithelle]

this is where you show how ignorant you are.
horde racials have been game-breakingly overpowered to the point they're the root cause of the entire faction imbalance.
starting in BC only blood elf ret paladins were viable due to their "unique" seal(read: the alliance equivalent from beta didn't make it into live until wrath), but their racial arcane torrent was instrumental in interrupting caster-adds all the way up to G'huun(which is why it was eventually nerfed).
other then G'huun the fights that arc torrent broke were:
M'uru, being able to interuppt/silence lock the caster adds was instrumental in being able to get past this wall of a boss.
no lights Yogg(this is exemplar due to how it was used to keep undying guardians from self-ressing since thorim wouldn't be there to kill them).
shadow lord iskar, being able to double up arc torr with an interrupter(in addition to war stomp) allowed horde raids to easily beat this boss' adds by using AoE CC.

i find it laughable how openly biased you are in your willful ignorance while you attempt to call anyone else biased when the game's player population is as massively imbalanced as it is.
because that's just arcane torrent's history, trolls were broken in ToT and in BDA in addition to being one of the most overpowered DPS historically.

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and, given arcane torrent's history, a needed nerf to one of the most over-powered abilities in the game.

It's just goes to prove it's nothing but petty jealousy, they keep bringing up AT when it's a completely different thing. It just proves they want SM nerfed because AT was nerfed.

[Frolk]

Arcane Torrent strong for years, nah is fine
Shadow meld OP for a year, fucking nerf that shit into the ground asap!

[Kithelle]

Arcane Torrent strong for years, nah is fine
Shadow meld OP for a year, fucking nerf that shit into the ground asap!

I mean what, do they think these groups are playing Night Elves for anything other than these invitationals? No...they aren't giving up there Horde racials for anything but the chance to get a free ride to Blizzcon.

[Garymorilix]

All players at 120 does not equal active players

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No they didn't they nerfed the cannons because they were being used on live to trivialize the dungeon. You can still do mega pulls with the cannons if you have an MDI level group just not a random pug one.

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Lol it's arguably even stronger now as melee especially in comps where you usually wouldn't have an offensive dispel. Also they nerfed dark iron within a week due to horde crying when it still wasn't as gamebreaking as AT is on Zul and King's Rest and PVP in general.

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BFA has been out for like a year and AT wasn't "nerfed" until BFA these statements are direct contradictions to the claim that "horde racials haven't been better for years". If Alliance racials were actually better guilds like Method and Limit would swap alliance in a heartbeat they have enough gold that it would cost them nothing much like limit did for the 400 piece in BoD.

this is where you show how ignorant you are.
horde racials have been game-breakingly overpowered to the point they're the root cause of the entire faction imbalance.
starting in BC only blood elf ret paladins were viable due to their "unique" seal(read: the alliance equivalent from beta didn't make it into live until wrath), but their racial arcane torrent was instrumental in interrupting caster-adds all the way up to G'huun(which is why it was eventually nerfed).
other then G'huun the fights that arc torrent broke were:
M'uru, being able to interuppt/silence lock the caster adds was instrumental in being able to get past this wall of a boss.
no lights Yogg(this is exemplar due to how it was used to keep undying guardians from self-ressing since thorim wouldn't be there to kill them).
shadow lord iskar, being able to double up arc torr with an interrupter(in addition to war stomp) allowed horde raids to easily beat this boss' adds by using AoE CC.

i find it laughable how openly biased you are in your willful ignorance while you attempt to call anyone else biased when the game's player population is as massively imbalanced as it is.
because that's just arcane torrent's history, trolls were broken in ToT and in BDA in addition to being one of the most overpowered DPS historically.

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and, given arcane torrent's history, a needed nerf to one of the most over-powered abilities in the game.

I don't know what your problems are.
As I said, I used to also think AT was broken af and I am glad it got nerfed, it should have been way sooner but oh well.

The thing is, M+ is a relatively new thing and people just started to figure out how to break it in various ways in the past 1 year. You can notice how many balance changes were put in the game simply because of it alone.

I don't give a flying fuck about what happened in Tbc or Wotlk or anything before BfA. I play the game now and the current game needs balance based on current gameplay.
You can't go around saying that DK's should be forever trash in everything because they were the most OP shit ever in WotLK, can ya? This is nonsense.

AT needed a nerf, got it, now Blizz needs to think about MDI and Shadowmeld.
But as I said, a simple shared cooldown with Vanish/Feign Death/ Shroud/ Invis Pot would solve almost all the porblems. This would be way less hussle than literally changing the ability in AT's case.

The moment you try to justify something OP simply because you're biased your argument becomes invalid.

[Twdft]

The thing is, M+ is a relatively new thing and people just started to figure out how to break it in various ways in the past 1 year.

You know they can choose whatever race they want on MDI? Nerf shadowmeld and they choose the next best race. SM isn't a thing outside of MDI.

[Dotality]

Arcane torrent got gutted because it was "too op for dungeons and m+" but I just watched a team of 5 nelf skip all the trash between boss 2-3 and 3-4 in motherlode during the mdi and crush the time of a +18.

Is it next on the nerf list, or is it fine because its not a popular horde race.

You are both right and wrong. As an alliance player, if i wanted to push any sort of higher keys (15 and above) a night elf healer is almsot a must. But let's be real, and let's say it's not the only reason they crushed the timer. There are other ways you can deathskip without being a nelf. (timed combat resses, soulstones, ankhs) and you need to play around these i your comp selection.

The other side of this coin is that this is the only thing that alliance has it going for it. The faction imbalance is so bad that SM is the only the that keeps the entire faction afloat. There wouldn't be 1 reason to be alliance if they nerfed SM, literally not one.

At the other hand, it's not nice to be a ''wrong'' race when you are ally, knowing that you could've survived that skip but you can't cus you are a wrong race. Also, if you think arcane torrent was balanced you're delusional.

[Garymorilix]

You know they can choose whatever race they want on MDI? Nerf shadowmeld and they choose the next best race. SM isn't a thing outside of MDI.

Which is the next best race that can skip entire portions of any dungeon with simply their racial ability?
So what if it isn't a thing outide of MDI?
Outlaw stacking wasn't a thing outside of the MDI.

[Twdft]

Which is the next best race that can skip entire portions of any dungeon with simply their racial ability?
So what if it isn't a thing outide of MDI?
Outlaw stacking wasn't a thing outside of the MDI.

It doesn't matter what the next best thing is, because there will always be a racial that is best.
So nerfing something that is only an issue in MDI solves nothing, because once that is gone you'd need to nerf the next best thing ad infinitum. If you argue to nerf a racial because of MDI the only logical argument to bring forward would be to turn off all racials entirely.

And yeah, double outlaw was a thing on high keys. To get a +22 you have to time a +21 which was made easier by the pure damage output of outlaw. Didn't matter in +12 though.

[sam86]

Imagine being upset about some use of a racial in PVE when AT was fucking bonkers for like 30 years in pvp.

yeah i mean the most broken op racial that literally turned entire pvp era for 3 years of purely humans + dwarf shaman or nelf druid wasn't alliance or something, while even with AT belfs weren't most broke pvp race and the game was actually far more balanced prior to every man for himself with diversity of races in pvp
in fact if not for horde dominance in pve raiding and how top end pve gear is best for pvp too (even if blizz bullsh8t say it doesn't matter, it did for ages), it would probably been alliance f8ck horde since the mass racial horde nerf in cata

[Byleth]

It's funny how Shadowmeld & Arcane torrent were never a problem until M+ dungeons...

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It doesn't matter what the next best thing is, because there will always be a racial that is best.
So nerfing something that is only an issue in MDI solves nothing, because once that is gone you'd need to nerf the next best thing ad infinitum. If you argue to nerf a racial because of MDI the only logical argument to bring forward would be to turn off all racials entirely.

This guy gets it.

[sam86]

The other side of this coin is that this is the only thing that alliance has it going for it. The faction imbalance is so bad that SM is the only the that keeps the entire faction afloat. There wouldn't be 1 reason to be alliance if they nerfed SM, literally not one.

the faction imbalance isn't really about racials
horde dominate pve since vanilla days and back then alliance racials were far better than horde for pve (just fear ward alone make alliance top, not counting weapon skill or many other sh8t)
blizz introduce of 'faction transfer' in wrath that i still remember today was with promise they will keep eye on 'faction balance on servers' is what f8cked alliance/horde ratio problems, my server Ghostlands eu became a literal ghost land after that faction transfer, and prior to bfa it became the default pve servers alliance except Dreanor and pvp is horde except 1 server ( i think Silvermoon?)
and tbh as right now i don't see a single thing to save A/H ratio except extreme action by blizz like stop create new horde chars on pvp servers or something, but Bobby Kodick will never allow something like that, he doesn't give a single f8ck about what is good for video game and only about increase his check, the guy flat out hate video games the most in entire video game industry and at least one of most video game haters in world, and he is ceo of a video game company!

[Garymorilix]

It doesn't matter what the next best thing is, because there will always be a racial that is best.
So nerfing something that is only an issue in MDI solves nothing, because once that is gone you'd need to nerf the next best thing ad infinitum. If you argue to nerf a racial because of MDI the only logical argument to bring forward would be to turn off all racials entirely.

And yeah, double outlaw was a thing on high keys. To get a +22 you have to time a +21 which was made easier by the pure damage output of outlaw. Didn't matter in +12 though.

It does matter what the next best thing is in this case, cuz the next best thing is not nearly as broken as shadowmeld. Lightforged for some bonus aoe? Void elf for a free blink? Mag har for mount speed during shroud?
You cant Name a single racial that could éven skip one trash pack by itself. This is why this matters.
But again, putting shadowmeld on a shared CD would instant ly solve the problem.

And no, outlaw stacking was a very niche thing cuz not everyone plays rogue in the normál game. In fact, in the normál game DH's are way overtuned when it comes to dmg, popular enough to see one in literally every second m+ run from 10 to 22. Nobody talks about that tho.

Admit Something is op then change it. I dont care Which race or faction it is. Neither should any person tasked with balancing.

[Quaade]

Yes, and then they just switch to stacking the next best thing. You don't balance games for what pros do. You balance for what real players do.

Except for Warriors, They're absolutely nerfed for what the pros do instead of what real players do.

[Xath]

yeah i mean the most broken op racial that literally turned entire pvp era for 3 years of purely humans + dwarf shaman or nelf druid wasn't alliance or something, while even with AT belfs weren't most broke pvp race and the game was actually far more balanced prior to every man for himself with diversity of races in pvp
in fact if not for horde dominance in pve raiding and how top end pve gear is best for pvp too (even if blizz bullsh8t say it doesn't matter, it did for ages), it would probably been alliance f8ck horde since the mass racial horde nerf in cata

Lol the majority of guilds that swapped to horde did so in mop or wod well after the "mass nerf" in cata.

[Cthulhu fhtagn]

The problem is more with dungeons instead of shadowmeld itself. Dungeons are full of enemies that detect stealth, but for whatever reason shadowmeld drops aggro on those if you are far enough. Just changing that would fix the "problem" that doesn't really affect anything but the mdi.

[Mikazukinoyaiba]

No, no. It's not about how much Shadowmeld saves when you put it on everyone. The guy I was replying to was arguing that it's enough to have Shadowmeld on just the healer. But if you do that it means you have to wait for your other 4 teammates to die (which I forgot to add in before), lose 5 seconds per death (MDI rules give a 5 second penatly per death), + the 8-10 second resurrection timer. Remember, we're talking about the MDI here which is the only place that people are stacking Night Elves. You don't have people race changing to Night Elves on live just to do Mythic+. So the question here is, is it really "OP" when it's only used in a very niche area of the game, only useful when stacked (because as shown, you lose so much time if you don't put it on everyone), and doesn't find any use really anywhere else?

You do only need the healer to be the Night Elf, more than that is just a luxury, Brez reach is thousand yards.

You do know how SM works right? you ran straight thru multiple deadly pack, meld and grats you skipped 6 minutes of hard fight.

Losing 28 sec (if you have 1 Night Elf) and saving 6 minutes timer is totally worth it am i talking to M+ player atm?

The problem is more with dungeons instead of shadowmeld itself. Dungeons are full of enemies that detect stealth, but for whatever reason shadowmeld drops aggro on those if you are far enough.

That's because shadowmeld is not a stealth/prowl/shroud ability, They're basically vanish, a 2 minute cooldown ability attached to a racial.
Nerfing it into stealth is the way to make it not OP. The problem is definitely Shadowmeld being a vanish and not the dungeon design.

There's no way the devs can design around shadowmeld unless they implement zone wide true sight, but thats basically would indirectly nerf rogue's vanish (which is fine for a class that doesnt have a mass ress ability), and again, devs shouldn't design every dungeon around a single racial ability, they removed Dark Simulacrum from PVE for this reason alone.

[Shakana]

Arcane torrent got gutted because it was "too op for dungeons and m+" but I just watched a team of 5 nelf skip all the trash between boss 2-3 and 3-4 in motherlode during the mdi and crush the time of a +18.

Is it next on the nerf list, or is it fine because its not a popular horde race.

Shadowmeld is like a hunter's "feign death" that can be useful to put you out of combat. Now arcane torrent was a mass interrupt. Was way more needing a nerf, even tho i loved it more than anything and i prefer it than being a mass dispel. Used to be a silence, was more catchy and useful.

[Trumpcat]

Must make absolutely sure to nerf, remove and simplify any interesting ability on any class or race into a streamlined singular vision of fighting stronk mobs through a tube?

The more polish M+ is getting, the more dull it becomes.

Instead I say duplicate all racials between factions much like Bloodlust/Heroism and Paladin/Shaman got duplicated. Both factions have access to the same racials, but with different visuals, sound and names that fit the faction and race themes. This is a multi million idea, feel free to copy it you cute little Blizzard game director reading this post.

[Mindstripper]

As stated above, I enjoy watching MDI and it is incredibly unhealthy and boring to watch an OP racial ability trivialize whole dungeons as groups of Nelf run from boss to boss dropping all the trash with shadowmeld.

God forbid Alliance get anything nice or do anything at all against the Horde.

[Byleth]

Instead I say duplicate all racials between factions much like Bloodlust/Heroism and Paladin/Shaman got duplicated. Both factions have access to the same racials, but with different visuals, sound and names that fit the faction and race themes. This is a multi million idea, feel free to copy it you cute little Blizzard game director reading this post.

That... is actually a really good idea. I mean people will rubbish it, as it strips away faction identity. But it does cleanly solve a whole host of issues at once.