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  1. #1341
    Quote Originally Posted by Goge View Post
    Simple, my reason for hating LFR stems from Blizzard's awful balancing and titanforging.

    When an ilvl 400 trinket from Palace LFR (coral, inkpod) beats ilvl 415 mythic BoD and ilvl 430 m+ dungeon trinkets,
    that basically means I'm "forced" to go into LFR to get these if I didn't get them from the other difficulties.

    I don't hate LFR because it exists, I hate it when there's upgrades there for me (which should never be the case if you're a mythic raider)
    ....you act like that same trinket doesn't drop at a higher item level in normal/heroic/mythic. Which means your entire argument is flawed and you're grasping as straws to try and drag LFR down.

  2. #1342
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Perhaps they want to make the "better" players join the "casuals" and socialize. Just because you are mythic raider doesn't mean you should isolate yourself from the rest of the community. It is exactly this kind of behavior that makes wow falsely elitist and segragated.

    God forbid you may be "forced" to play some casual content. Just wow man everyone should just get in a line and apologize to you for making you have to tolerate playing with them.
    God forbid I isolate myself from people who have no intention to improve at the game and just expect to get carried while semi-afking.
    LFR players do about 25% or less of their sim dps and most fights take substantially longer than even their mythic difficulty counterpart.

    If people enjoy this content, fine, I'm glad for them.
    I just don't want anything to do with it cause it's a massive cesspool everytime i go in there.

  3. #1343
    Quote Originally Posted by Goge View Post
    God forbid I isolate myself from people who have no intention to improve at the game and just expect to get carried while semi-afking.
    LFR players do about 25% or less of their sim dps and most fights take substantially longer than even their mythic difficulty counterpart.

    If people enjoy this content, fine, I'm glad for them.
    I just don't want anything to do with it cause it's a massive cesspool everytime i go in there.
    The irony of you calling it a cesspool because they don't live up to your standards of how the game should be played is hilarious.

  4. #1344
    Quote Originally Posted by Motorman View Post
    Noone forces you to join LFR, you can always keep pushing for TF trinkets of Mythic version. You can't just say "you people dont deserve the good stuff" just because you think that content is easy.
    If i finish BoD tier with 415 minimum equipped in every slot, then for the next weeks I am unlucky in normal/heroic/mythic Palace with certain drops (like the coral trinket example i gave), I wholeheartedly believe that an LFR trinket at 400 ilevel should not be an upgrade over anything else i have.

    It's not like i go into LFR every week and do all wings to flex my epeen.
    I try to avoid going in there as much as possible because i don't like it.

    But at some point, just doing mechanics doesn't cut it at a certain part of progression.
    It's about hard dps checks, so you must pursue every upgrade you can get, even if they come from sources you don't actually want to take part in.
    Last edited by Goge; 2019-09-15 at 11:54 AM.

  5. #1345
    I don't have time to raid at particular timings. So I just do LFR and see what's that raid loos like in easy mod. Even if I have time I can practice fight in LFR. LFR is good tool.

  6. #1346
    LFR gives casual scrubs like me another source of farmable purple gear and snowflakes hate it, more at 11.

    Oh, and the "it demotivates casual scrubs from progressing to REAL raiding" argument is a fallacy and you know it : I have never had any intention to take up ~real raiding~ with social and time contraints in the first place.

  7. #1347
    Quote Originally Posted by Goge View Post
    If i finish BoD tier with 415 minimum equipped in every slot, then for the next weeks I am unlucky in normal/heroic/mythic Palace with certain drops (like the coral trinket example i gave), I wholeheartedly believe that an LFR trinket at 400 ilevel should not be an upgrade over anything else i have.

    It's not like i go into LFR every week and do all wings to flex my epeen.
    I try to avoid going in there as much as possible because i don't like it.

    But at some point, just doing mechanics doesn't cut it at a certain part of progression.
    It's about hard dps checks, so you must pursue every upgrade you can get, even if they come from sources you don't actually want to take part in.
    Then you are wrong, I had multiple upgrades at the end of BoD from LFR (trinkets) and never step a foot in there. It's your mentality issue and math incapability.

    This is completely non issue. The only arguably valid issue was with Unstable Arcanocrystal and farming that currency from WQ to roll the damn trinket because it wasn't even possible to get it from raids. And it was faaaaar above any other trinkets raids did offer.

    And lastly, you don't even need that trinket to fully clear mythic. So you are not forced to do anything at all.

  8. #1348
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mikazukinoyaiba View Post
    I dont get it? so it took 6 hours for him because he left some of the LFR and its a problem for you? If today i got 90 min queue and tomorrow you got 60 min queue would you still be mad that my queue times took 6 hours?
    They were stating all queues took 6 hours. And not a variable amount for people. They used this to bash LFR and when they were asked to explain how LFR has a 6 hour queue they answered with leaving and queuing again and multiple wings. It has nothing to do with how long LFR takes an individual player. I don't understand where your hang up is coming from.
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  9. #1349
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    Developing raids costs a LOT of money. Without LfR only 10% of players used to see the raids. At some point you can't justify the costs anymore with so low participation, so Blizzard introduced an automatic matchmaking mode which more than half of the players use. It might not be a "good" feature for you, but it certainly is for the game. I don't have fun in LfR (boring because too easy, takes too long) so I don't even do it with Alts, but I am sure for most of the players who only go into raids in LfR difficulty it is a "good" feature.
    As i pointed out later on in the comment, i said that just because people participate, does not mean that it is a positive element towards keeping people around. You say, that you have to get more than 50% of players to engage with the content before it is worth having, but what if 30% of the players hate the experience? What if 20% of those just quit because of that experience and the remaining 70% actually see LFR as a minus when it comes to calculating if WoW is actually worth playing.

    I think this way of analysing content, whether or not % amount are playing it, is an outdated way of doing it. You don't really get to see why players do things. In a game like WoW, a lot of players do content just because it is there, not really because they like it.

    Now i don't have the numbers, but i can see this idea of thinking taking down other games atm, where players are playing, as they do, but the numbers are going down and the devs are looking at the numbers and saying "why are they leaving, 95% of the players are engaging with the new content so they should have alot to do?" and are not being able to see that players engage with all the "new" content they can, no matter if they actually find the content wanting. We as players hunt for new things constantly, but we can easily be disappointed when we finally find that content.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  10. #1350
    Quote Originally Posted by Flurryfang View Post
    You don't really get to see why players do things. In a game like WoW, a lot of players do content just because it is there, not really because they like it.
    I do some things I don't really like. I don't really like farming azerite but I do world quests (emissaries and a couple odd azerite wq) on top of what I get via mythic+. Some other things I like even less (islands) and don't do them at all. Of course Blizzard can't really know if I like world quests or not, but they are kind of necessary to achieve my own set goal of 67 neck. Other players do a lot more to get azerite.

    Difference to LfR is: doing some stuff for azerite is actually required to get your neck up. While doing LfR isn't required for anything (well ok transmog if you're into that). The items from it are irrelevant. I don't understand what's the joy in it, but I am not everyone and don't know what drives other people. So if I see a player doing LfR for several weeks and no other modes it's a safe bet they actually like doing LfR.

  11. #1351
    Quote Originally Posted by Rappy28 View Post
    LFR gives casual scrubs like me another source of farmable purple gear and snowflakes hate it, more at 11.

    Oh, and the "it demotivates casual scrubs from progressing to REAL raiding" argument is a fallacy and you know it : I have never had any intention to take up ~real raiding~ with social and time contraints in the first place.
    I’m mostly pro-LFR but I think the better question would be: For a player like you, who freely admits they would never do any raiding other than the LFR, how would you play the game if the LFR didn’t exist but instead Blizzard developed more ways to get players into raiding without the “time and social constraints” you complain about? This thread is page after page of the same nonsense but I see very few people trying to think of constructive alternatives. It’s more people arguing that you can’t un-jelly the PB&J and that the LFR is "too integral" to Blizzard's current design philosophy.

  12. #1352
    Immortal Flurryfang's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Twdft View Post
    I do some things I don't really like. I don't really like farming azerite but I do world quests (emissaries and a couple odd azerite wq) on top of what I get via mythic+. Some other things I like even less (islands) and don't do them at all. Of course Blizzard can't really know if I like world quests or not, but they are kind of necessary to achieve my own set goal of 67 neck. Other players do a lot more to get azerite.

    Difference to LfR is: doing some stuff for azerite is actually required to get your neck up. While doing LfR isn't required for anything (well ok transmog if you're into that). The items from it are irrelevant. I don't understand what's the joy in it, but I am not everyone and don't know what drives other people. So if I see a player doing LfR for several weeks and no other modes it's a safe bet they actually like doing LfR.
    Well you are very much refering to content, as a form of getting forward, that things like Islands, WQ and mythic+ is all for the idea of getting "better" in forms of neck level. That LFR does not really matter because you don't really get gear upgrades for it.

    But what i am refering to in the form of content, is the content that makes you play. Like achievments are completly irrelevevant when it comes to getting better, but they are still a huge importance for some people. So you can't really use the arguement "Well why would anybody do LFR if they dislike it, because it give no rewards" when it is more about keeping yourself busy and having a something "different" to play.

    Like i often do LFR, but it is mostly becasue it gives a different experience than WQs and LFD. Running through the different sorts of content of the game to keep things fresh, is what makes people go into pet battles, PVP, M+ and other things, even though they don't actually enjoy doing them. People often just want to play WoW, but can be grinded down by bad content.

    So just because you don't get an upgrade/progression from doing content, you can still find yourself doing it, just because you hunt for a varying experience. Just because LFR does not give upgrades, does not mean that everybody doing it actually enjoy it. They are proberly just doing it, because they feel like the game is pulling them into it or because its a weekly thing they do. That does not exclude it from having a bad influence on your overall player experience and make people quit.
    May the lore be great and the stories interesting. A game without a story, is a game without a soul. Value the lore and it will reward you with fun!

    Don't let yourself be satisfied with what you expect and what you seem as obvious. Ask for something good, surprising and better. Your own standards ends up being other peoples standard.

  13. #1353
    Herald of the Titans Daffan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Advent View Post
    I can only speak for myself when I say that I stuck around gearing and progressing because I was having fun, not because raids looked fun. Been there; it's a job commitment nobody really wants. Some seem to put up with it because of the people they're playing with, but we've already seen what happens when an alternative progression path opens up. The activity itself appears to burn people out, and fast. Raiding by itself isn't enticing enough to keep people interested. But Blizzard, in their infinite wisdom, decided that instead of concentrating their resources on what most of their players were into, doubled down on raiding and made LFR.
    The alternate progression burns people out because there are constant resets bcuz of said welfare/catchup.
    Content drought is a combination of catchup mechanics and no new content.

  14. #1354
    Quote Originally Posted by otaXephon View Post
    I’m mostly pro-LFR but I think the better question would be: For a player like you, who freely admits they would never do any raiding other than the LFR, how would you play the game if the LFR didn’t exist but instead Blizzard developed more ways to get players into raiding without the “time and social constraints” you complain about? This thread is page after page of the same nonsense but I see very few people trying to think of constructive alternatives. It’s more people arguing that you can’t un-jelly the PB&J and that the LFR is "too integral" to Blizzard's current design philosophy.
    Im in a similar note so will throw my answer.

    Make normal, heroic, mythic difficulties with auto join feature. I dont have problem with communication, i dont have problem with learning mechanics and IF i want to wipe entire night because group is unorganized this would be my time to waste.

    I wont EVER work with a shedule when i can play game imposed by other people. Unless those people are my family :P

  15. #1355
    Quote Originally Posted by thatmikeguy View Post
    LFR is not bad. Warforge and Titanforge RNG is bad. As long as someone can't get redicoulous gear from LFR, there is no problem. Gear inflation is not simply because of one Raid difficulty. WF and TF would already be changed if it were not for M+. M+, the same content for two years that people are somehow ok with. If they keep M+ they should rotate them out as much as a raid, like x many per patch.
    I agree here. ALso LFR should be single player with help of npcs if its a tour mode.

  16. #1356
    Street's comments on LFR are interesting.

    "I wish we had done flex before Raid Finder. Flex still feels like raiding."

    "Originally we thought some players could just have an LFR endgame instead of a raiding endgame."

    "Our current thought is that LFR is a way to see the content and maybe some gear but not a great way to spend weeks or months."

    and this twitter thread:

    "As the guy partially responsible for WoW Raid Finder, I have very complex feelings on the issue of game difficulty."

    "I mean at the time, WoW didn’t offer much end game content for players who didn’t have an organized raiding guild. Raid Finder was a way to give them one. It was a way to see the end of the stories that often started in quests in the outdoor world."

    "But I don’t think the experience was awesome. When fights were even slightly difficult, groups would bail instead of trying to problem solve."

    "Because we could replace dropped players easily we would literally find raid IDs that had been stuck on bosses for 6 hours with all of the original members long gone. There was no raid leader to declare the run was over."

    "We ended up lowering the difficulty so much that groups rarely wiped but that took so much of the feel away from raiding."

    ---

    The feel I get is that (1) there was an audience that needed something like LFR, (2) they hoped LFR would provide something like "real" raiding to this audience, but (3) that turned out not to be possible, because LFR just failed if it was at all difficult. I think Street was lamenting the constraints that prevented LFR from being what they imagined it could be.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  17. #1357
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    I think Blizzard has actually already reached this conclusion, which is why you all can whine and whine and yet nothing happens to LFR, or all the other stuff min maxing M raiders now feel they have to do.
    Unfortunately, also nothing good happens to LFR. As the devs have other priorities.

    - - - Updated - - -

    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    The feel I get is that (1) there was an audience that needed something like LFR, (2) they hoped LFR would provide something like "real" raiding to this audience, but (3) that turned out not to be possible, because LFR just failed if it was at all difficult. I think Street was lamenting the constraints that prevented LFR from being what they imagined it could be.
    .. which could lead to the idea LFR is a failed concept, and not worth caring for anymore. From the POV of the devs, who see everything from an organized raider viewpoint. They actually cannot and will never understand their audience, as long they think everyone has to do dungeons and everyone has to do raids, best played with "friends".

    Their concept of what their players want is built on a heavy organized group bias. And it seems they cannot get away from it. No wonder, if the game director is a mythic difficulty theorycrafter.

    They should keep LFR in the game, and remove all its problems. Starting with large queues. Ending with throwing 25 random people into a raid without a raidleader hoping someone will choreograph it, and if not, the watered down numbers will care about it..

    The matchmade crowd needs something like Warfronts in raiding content. And not a 1:1 copy of heroic raids -1000 damage from mobs.

    They should start to take matchmade groups seriously, and design content and gameplay exclusively for them. Considering the fact they pay their sallary.

    That does not stop on LFR, that also continuies on World Quests, which are as bland and loveless implemented as LFR.
    Last edited by Fred Skinner; 2019-09-15 at 09:11 PM.
    Rinse and repeat. For the rewards. Send even more turtles into the water.

  18. #1358
    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    .. which could lead to the idea LFR is a failed concept, and not worth caring for anymore.
    But what is the alternative? That audience needs SOMETHING, and it also needs to not feel excluded.
    "There is a pervasive myth that making content hard will induce players to rise to the occasion. We find the opposite. " -- Ghostcrawler
    "The bit about hardcore players not always caring about the long term interests of the game is spot on." -- Ghostcrawler
    "Do you want a game with no casuals so about 500 players?"

  19. #1359
    Quote Originally Posted by Osmeric View Post
    But what is the alternative? That audience needs SOMETHING, and it also needs to not feel excluded.
    The audience needs fun gameplay.

    And not world quests which are not really replayable, telling no story at all, have neither a mental nor an execution challenge (probably except the few puzzle quests in nazjatar, which are surprisingly well done)

    And not LFR, which throws random people into a heroic raid gameplay with just watered down numbers which needs dedicated tanks and healers, skyrocketing the queue times to hours.

    The matchmade crowd needs gameplay especially catered to these players. As example, warfront gameplay in raiding content. Where it is about bosses, but not about boss tactics, where it is about random people seeing the art, the sound and the narrative. Another solution is to keep LFR as it is, and to add a solo mode or a small group mode for raid content. As like flex 1-3. Another way to see the content. Another solution would be AI NPCs.. there is so much possible, the devs would just have to WANT to do something about.

    I tell you, the next expac will run as like the last, if the open world content does not get compelling, and if LFR gives no character progression and no gameplay. In the last expac, millions bought the new pack, stayed subbed for a month or two, just to leave again. As the gameplay for the broad audience lacks massively and is not highly replayable or in the case of LFR offers no real character progression.

    Instead of creating content and gameplay for the masses, the devs focus on .. rated pvp rewards? eSports? Competitions?

    I beg your pardon? While the blood of the game, the bread and butter content is lacking? The devs need to do their work. Thats what they get paid for. And not to get an orgasm on twitter because 250.000 people watched Method wiping.
    Last edited by Fred Skinner; 2019-09-15 at 09:37 PM.
    Rinse and repeat. For the rewards. Send even more turtles into the water.

  20. #1360
    The Insane rhorle's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Fred Skinner View Post
    And not LFR, which throws random people into a heroic raid gameplay with just watered down numbers which needs dedicated tanks and healers, skyrocketing the queue times to hours.
    Wait. You seriously consider current LFR encounters to be heroic level game play?
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