Increase boss hp in Molten Core

[Lochton]

I never played mc when it was new,but looking at streams,if people TODAY can wipe the raid from a 1 mecanic debuff boss,i cant even beging to imagine the nightmare it was in 2005 when people were worse and had bad internet,yikes

Well, today people know what is to happen or easily can know. Back then, you had at least a few dusin wild cards of people who might, or might not know about the mechanics or where to be.

[ifrah]

So you are suggesting those two changes made MC be defeated by a bunch of people in greens who were not even max level?

Ok, I first though you were that dense, but apparently you're just a funny little troll. I shall therefore feed you.

Let me say it again, copy&paste from my original post. Were you able to read and comprehend this complex sentence?
Just some few examples of quite remarkable changes for the classes I've played over the years between "back then," as in before BWL and the 1.12 based classic

Do you understand what it means? It's ok to say you don't. If you do, then you probably have got stuck in the higher attention span requirement of reading the patch notes. I'm not going to be your secretary here, but just for my personal amusement I'll link few more lesser or greater buffs from over the days:

- Patch 1.8: Attack power normalization, no more heavy penalization for faster weapons
- Patch something: Debuff slots doubled, we've been here a million times already
- Patch 1.3: Mage armor introduced (30% manaregen while casting)
- Patch 1.3: Warrior no longer loses all rage when missing execute
- Patch 1.4: Raggy despawn timer doubled
- Patch 1.5: The eruptions from the lava in Ragnaros's Lair will now always happen while Ragnaros is in combat. However, these lava eruptions occur less frequently, do less damage, and the damage they inflict is now resistible.
- Patch 1.7: Not sure how flasked up the raids were, but black lotus used to be soulbound prior to this.
- Patch 1.9: Bloodthirst AP coefficient buffed

Not sure if the patch notes cover every tweaking of the spells/abilities, as some early snips from thottbot would for example suggest the rank 10 frostbolt having 426-463 base damage on some very old patch vs. 440-475 in classic.

And if you did read it carefully enough to understand, I have nowhere stated that full questgreens at level 58 can clear MC with these patches. The whole point of this was to just give an example that things are not that black and white. Please help me to find where I stated the current state of classic due to game mechanic changes made the game so easy the raid content can be cleared by semi educated monkeys.

[munkeyinorbit]

all the patch notes between 1.1 and 1.12 are readily available online. why are you demanding links to things you can easily google?

This sounds like an argument of someone who doesn't actually know what they are talking about. You make a claim you need to provide credible sources. You have even been given what a credible source is. This should be a home run. A rare opportunity to actually win an Internet argument. Yet...there are still plenty of excuses going around.

[Uoyredrum]

Everyone talks about it as an absolute fact that cannot be denied, im simply asking for someone to link the readily available patch notes outlining these "drastic buffs to dps". Honestly, i dont think it is asking too much at all.

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while it was current?

Yes

[barackohmama]

It was as meaningless in 1.12 as it was in 1.3

There wasn't some massive jump in ease that you want to believe there was. MC just was never hard.

You have no clue dude

[Kuja]

No changes! :rage:

[Zentail]

So Mythic HFC bosses getting blown up in 20 seconds meant it was irrelevant content?

Mythic HFC bosses literally never got blown up in 20 seconds. By the time that happened, we were in the next expansion and it was literally irrelevant content. But yes, if you have everything you need from a raid, or it melts, then it's irrelevant.

MC wasn't even cleared before the 1.3 release, 1.3 released the 5th of March 2005 (not even close to mid 2005), World first Ragnaros was the 25th of April 2005. Almost 2 months after the release of 1.3

Every Ragnaros kill occured after the release of Dire Maul.

So you mean to tell me world-first, followed by literally hundreds of guilds in 1.3, didn't make Ragnaros irrelevant? The literal whole point of the post was that 1.3 made Ragnaros a joke because of a few changes and Dire Maul. On the topic of something else not really provable at this point, there were plenty of hardcore Everquest guilds that supposedly came to WoW and cleared Molten Core "with ease" and didn't think it was screenshot-worthy within the first month of launch. Obviously there's no proof for any of them, but I know there was a guild on my server that had Barron and Garr on farm well before January 29th 2005 (the alleged world-first), but because they didn't take screenshots or videos, world-first recording websites don't believe them. My whole server distinctly remembered it, though. Remember, we didn't have super wide use of the internet and/or achievements back then. Plenty of people saw 0 value in screenshots. When my guild got (alleged) server-first kill (not world-first)for Illidan in BC, none of took and screenshots or videos. Why the hell did we care? We didn't. Never occurred to us that we might have to "prove it" one day.

[RoKPaNda]

I notice that split running with 20 people has become a thing. I could get behind that, but it's kinda odd to have to divide your guild into 2 teams like that.

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I wait with baited breath for the non-existant parses from first time MC clears in late 04/early 05 that had pre-submerge Rag kills and 30 second kills on other bosses.

You're just blatantly wrong here.

You're making the mistake of comparing people's first MC clears in Vanilla to now. There's 15 years worth of knowledge that didn't exist back then, players are better now, players have had years and years of much harder encounters. MC is going to be easy unless you go out of your way to make it hard.

[munkeyinorbit]

Ok, I first though you were that dense, but apparently you're just a funny little troll. I shall therefore feed you.

Let me say it again, copy&paste from my original post. Were you able to read and comprehend this complex sentence?
Just some few examples of quite remarkable changes for the classes I've played over the years between "back then," as in before BWL and the 1.12 based classic

Do you understand what it means? It's ok to say you don't. If you do, then you probably have got stuck in the higher attention span requirement of reading the patch notes. I'm not going to be your secretary here, but just for my personal amusement I'll link few more lesser or greater buffs from over the days:

1. Patch 1.8: Attack power normalization, no more heavy penalization for faster weapons
2. Patch something: Debuff slots doubled, we've been here a million times already
3. Patch 1.3: Mage armor introduced (30% manaregen while casting)
4. Patch 1.3: Warrior no longer loses all rage when missing execute
5. Patch 1.4: Raggy despawn timer doubled
6. Patch 1.5: The eruptions from the lava in Ragnaros's Lair will now always happen while Ragnaros is in combat. However, these lava eruptions occur less frequently, do less damage, and the damage they inflict is now resistible.
7. Patch 1.7: Not sure how flasked up the raids were, but black lotus used to be soulbound prior to this.
8. Patch 1.9: Bloodthirst AP coefficient buffed

Not sure if the patch notes cover every tweaking of the spells/abilities, as some early snips from thottbot would for example suggest the rank 10 frostbolt having 426-463 base damage on some very old patch vs. 440-475 in classic.

And if you did read it carefully enough to understand, I have nowhere stated that full questgreens at level 58 can clear MC with these patches. The whole point of this was to just give an example that things are not that black and white. Please help me to find where I stated the current state of classic due to game mechanic changes made the game so easy the raid content can be cleared by semi educated monkeys.

Just to make it easy I have numbered all of your game changing buffs.

1. This is not a buff. This is a normalisation. There can be argued to have a net nerf because everyone got rid of the fast weapons because slower ones hit harder. And then they were normalised.
2. Yes. We can all agree that this is a buff. This was done in 1.7.
3. 1.3 Rag didnt die.
4. 1.3 Rag didnt die.
5. Has no bearing on difficulty of the fight.
6. Balance nerf that we see constantly in WoW
7. There were elixirs too
8. Lets just assume that this is not a complete lie because the source is unreliable but 3% increase in dps.
9. Finally getting close to 1.12. Only 231 days before it.

Looks like most of these buffs that made 1.12 so overpowered had no bearing on the difficulty of Ragnoras at all or were actually needed to kill him. With all of this common knowledge out there you would think that there was actually any truth that MC was so easy because we are in 1.12. The debuff slot is big. Everyone knows this but it happened in 1.7. 343 days previously. You can hardly call that a 1.12 problem.

What this boils down to is that there are a lot of angry nerds out there that are gutted that their reality has been shattered. "WoW Classic will bring real WoW back". "It's about the journey, not the destination". "Vanilla was way harder than retail is today, you actually had to work to get your gear". And then 30 odd people just took a giant fucking shit on it all. Not only did they clear Ragnoras in the first week, they did it with less than 40 people, with no gear, and with a lot of people not even 60. There is no challenge in Classic. It is a complete mess. It can never be taken seriously as a challenge after that.

I suggest that this bullshit of 1.12 making the game easier be put to rest. As this entire thread has shown, there were minimal buffs made a long the way and it was more to do with giving some sort of balance to make some specs less terrible. Stop trying to move the goalposts, the game has finished and you lost. Just enjoy the game with friends. That's what we are all here for in the end.

[ArCaN1St]

You could off-combat rez people on bossfights in MC up to 1.5 or 1.6, somewhen in late 2005. It pretty much nullifies all the discussion about "1.12 being easier", because nothing can be easier than infinite amount of ressurections on a bossfight.

[Rogalicus]

Mythic HFC bosses literally never got blown up in 20 seconds. By the time that happened, we were in the next expansion and it was literally irrelevant content. But yes, if you have everything you need from a raid, or it melts, then it's irrelevant.

How did you manage to ignore ?
It's still 6.2.

[Charge me Doctor]

Everyone talks about it as an absolute fact that cannot be denied, im simply asking for someone to link the readily available patch notes outlining these "drastic buffs to dps". Honestly, i dont think it is asking too much at all.

It's kinda funny to me that you didn't heard about weapon damage normalization change in 1.8, which turned warriors and rogues from bottom tier DPS into godlike tier DPS

[NihilSustinet]

thing is - it is the *no changes* when you look at it from 1.12 perspective, and ppl can bitch all they want about 1.1 being harder - now it will just sound like an excuse for content being easy ( which it was back in the day, ppl just didn't have enough info and experience like they do nowadays ).

it was harder becauses classes sucked and damage was a lot lower, tanks were way more squishy, healers didnt have nearly as much output. originally if your tank didnt hav e full BIS FR gear, with full BIS tank gear in the rest of their slots, no amount of healing would save them from ragnaros 1 shots. which happened. a lot. im not debating that the game was mechanically easier. it obviously was. it was getting the gear and the weak raid damage that made it hard. if classes, talents, and gear were exactly like they were in 1.1 and 1.2, world top guilds would currently be wiping on the first trash packs in MC, if they even had enough people at 60 to zone in yet,and thats a fact. in fact, mages werent strong enough to dungeon cleave, and layers didnt exist. id say world top guild would still be in the level ~40 range.

[Uselessrouge]

did you guys manage to run the raid with 20 people and if yes with what gear?^^

[HavokHeart]

When ony was released you could attune one person at a time. 1 drop per UBRS run. That's 40 UBRS's to even get in the door.

Aside from the tedious stuff. Player power was nowhere near where it is in Classic. It's hard to explain the power jump through all of vanilla.. but.. it was MASSIVE.

MC on release? A dungeon geared warrior could loose threat on a mob from a big heal because threat generation was non existent. This is an example of how talent changes come into play. Multiple healers casting tiny heals had to be used.

There were hundreds of powerful rare items added over the course of vanilla that were very powerful adding crit chance, hit chance, spell power and attack power. Many of these are level 50-58 to equip, offer comparable power to MC loot (as a catch up mechanic), and were used by the LOL OMG THEY KILLED IT AT LEVEL 58 groups.

So calm down. You are wrong. It was harder because players were weaker, both from weak talents and weak gear.

[NihilSustinet]

You could off-combat rez people on bossfights in MC up to 1.5 or 1.6, somewhen in late 2005. It pretty much nullifies all the discussion about "1.12 being easier", because nothing can be easier than infinite amount of ressurections on a bossfight.

the fact that such things were necessary shows how much harder it was.

[Charge me Doctor]

So you are suggesting those two changes made MC be defeated by a bunch of people in greens who were not even max level?

Oh no, these two changes are just a drop in a bucket, you should check out stuff like innervate becoming an ability instead of a talent, or magi having the spell armour, that actually allows you to ignore most damage in MC while also retaining at least half of your mana regen, instead of being OOM in a minute and wanding. Oh, also you know that skill "evocation" that every mage has now? Yeah, it used to be a talent in arcane. So, yeah, all those changes made already "not hard" raid of MC to become a cakewalk.

[Popastique]

it was harder becauses classes sucked and damage was a lot lower, tanks were way more squishy, healers didnt have nearly as much output. originally if your tank didnt hav e full BIS FR gear, with full BIS tank gear in the rest of their slots, no amount of healing would save them from ragnaros 1 shots. which happened. a lot. im not debating that the game was mechanically easier. it obviously was. it was getting the gear and the weak raid damage that made it hard. if classes, talents, and gear were exactly like they were in 1.1 and 1.2, world top guilds would currently be wiping on the first trash packs in MC, if they even had enough people at 60 to zone in yet,and thats a fact. in fact, mages werent strong enough to dungeon cleave, and layers didnt exist. id say world top guild would still be in the level ~40 range.

IF IF IF IF IF - those IFS are not going to cut it, and truth is Blizz won't revert servers to old patch. So we will never know what would happen, and so such threads are pointless. But from what you are telling, and if what you are telling is correct - game would just be more grindy when it comes to pre raid gear, and people would need another week/two weeks of prep before obliterating MC - not that much of a difference.

[NihilSustinet]

IF IF IF IF IF - those IFS are not going to cut it, and truth is Blizz won't revert servers to old patch. So we will never know what would happen, and so such threads are pointless. But from what you are telling, and if what you are telling is correct - game would just be more grindy when it comes to pre raid gear, and people would need another week/two weeks of prep before obliterating MC - not that much of a difference.

i mean. look at how long it took to kill rag on launch. you are objectively, provably wrong.

[Popastique]

i mean. look at how long it took to kill rag on launch. you are objectively, provably wrong.

thing is - amount of prep and knowledge ppl have nowadays is completely different. so no, i am not wrong. 15 years have gone by, hello.