Increase boss hp in Molten Core

[Frozenbro]

MC is the entry level raid. And skills has not skyrocketed. They pruned a lot of abilities.. current wow is a joke.

You didnt play vanilla then and/or you don't play retail on an acceptable lvl, or you would know that you needed to be mentally handicapped to not do your rotation on vanilla compared to retail, which was the case with most of its population anyways, nowadays you have tools to know how trash a player is, you didnt have this back then, so anyone able to farm the proper gear/consumables and execute that 1 single mechanic was a god.

[Kikoku]

Maybe not...but they certainly were never this easy. Something is clearly wrong.

You're right. Something did change... it's us. We are clearly better gamers than before.

[zhero]

The improved classes and extra debuffslots plays a part yes, but the by far biggest increase in damage comes from people actually having a clue how to gear their chars properly, use consumables, better PCs/connections and actually know how to play their classes today.

Or do you actually think that people didn't manage to improve on anything from Classic during 15 years of private server theorycrafting?


If MC had been released as it was the very first time: With the worst version of the Classic talents, the hardest version of the bosses, and the worst version of gear available, Apes would still have raped Rag. They might have used 7 days instead of 6 from the launch, but they would still have breezed through MC like the joke it is.

Pretty sure most privateservers did what I wrote above with their progressive content releases, AND further buffed all raids by a significant amount, just because they were deemed "too easy" by the community.

considering they had 1 week to gear up, including the time it took them to max level, their knowledge on gearing up had very little to do with it.

[AwkwardSquirtle]

So Mythic HFC bosses getting blown up in 20 seconds meant it was irrelevant content?

When Iron Reaver was dying in 20 seconds it was absolutely irrelevant. Those guys had the instance on farm for months at that point. They literally didn't bring a healer for it. The comp was 19 arcane mages and a DK.

I didn't play vanilla so I have nothing to add to the main argument, but your example is bad.

[anon5123]

Maybe not...but they certainly were never this easy. Something is clearly wrong.

Players got better over the past 15 years.

Every single aspect of vanilla has been theorycrafted into oblivion and summarized into 10 minute youtube video guides.

That's what "went wrong".

[Jehct]

Starting in 1.12 patch for the release of a server is a change. It comes with class/talent/ and gear buffs that pretty drastically increase dps.

It's no secret that MC is a joke right now. First time Rag kills with no submerge, and 30 second kills on most other bosses. Mana never matters in this environment, and that is super counter to the original design of raiding MC. That has other ramifications, like mana potions and fire prot potions being worth alot less.

Blizzard was lazy. They didn't want to do a progressive patch release plan, instead giving us this. That ship has sailed, I won't dwell on that point.

So, it seems the right thing to do would be to add HP to bosses.

I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but at the very least, mana should be a concern on the first few clears, or else this all feels meaningless, like retail.

Everquest had to do the *exact* same thing, for basically the exact same reasons. Those of us who played those servers saw this, and some other issues, coming a mile away.

Sounds like you don't want the original Vanilla. If you don't like it don't play the game. Or maybe Retail is more suited for your needs.

[Video Games]

He said 1.3 which was closer to mid-2005. And MC was pretty irrelevant in 1.3. I think you're old enough to look up on your own the incredibly massive amount of Ragnaros kill that occurred after the release of Dire Maul.

Pretty impressive that a raid that wasnt even cleared yet was irrelevant

[Zentail]

Pretty impressive that a raid that wasnt even cleared yet was irrelevant

I mean considering a patch came out and all of a sudden every guild in the game started clearing it half AFK. Whether or not it's cleared isn't as relevant considering that 99% of current retail guilds haven't cleared Mythic raids of even the last tier (probably high 90%s percent of people haven't even cleared the first BFA raid on Mythic). If we're using that as an indicator, then the first BFA raid is still 100% relevant. Hell, probably more than half of players still haven't cleared Antorus on Mythic yet, maybe even higher considering mechanics still matter. Are you saying a raid from the previous expansion is still relevant in current expansion content? I mean, 75% of players didn't clear Naxx40 when it was current and the raid got removed. Does that mean in BFA, Naxx40 is still relevant?

You cannot use the clear-rate of a raid as an indicator of relevancy, otherwise too much stays relevant forever, which maybe wouldn't be a bad thing if the game was designed around that, but it's not.

[zhero]

I mean considering a patch came out and all of a sudden every guild in the game started clearing it half AFK. Whether or not it's cleared isn't as relevant considering that 99% of current retail guilds haven't cleared Mythic raids of even the last tier (probably high 90%s percent of people haven't even cleared the first BFA raid on Mythic). If we're using that as an indicator, then the first BFA raid is still 100% relevant. Hell, probably more than half of players still haven't cleared Antorus on Mythic yet, maybe even higher considering mechanics still matter. Are you saying a raid from the previous expansion is still relevant in current expansion content? I mean, 75% of players didn't clear Naxx40 when it was current and the raid got removed. Does that mean in BFA, Naxx40 is still relevant?

You cannot use the clear-rate of a raid as an indicator of relevancy, otherwise too much stays relevant forever, which maybe wouldn't be a bad thing if the game was designed around that, but it's not.

your beliefs in what makes something relevant is absurd. considering 1.3 is around the time of the first kill, of course the number of kills was going to go up.

[huth]

no she fucking did not. DSL penetration in 2005 was under 10% and already surpassed by cable and less than 1% of people killed a boss in naxx in vanilla, less than .1% cleared the whole raid in vanilla, only 10 guilds cleared it before patch 1.12 came out (6 months before BC launched) and around 130ish (worldwide) cleared it in vanilla. the odds of her raiding naxx on DSL in vanilla are around .08% lol

It's a lot higher if you live in germany. Even today, many ISPs don't offer any non-DSL solutions, especially in more rural areas.

- - - Updated - - -

MC is the entry level raid. And skills has not skyrocketed. They pruned a lot of abilities.. current wow is a joke. all you have to do is be aware of incoming boss abilities and move away from shit. It's an arcade joke of a game. No wonder why people prefer Classic over Retail, they don't like the Counter-Strike wow has become and prefer a game that has some originality to it.

That's a good one. WoW has never been original. The entire concept was taking what works and putting it all in one game.

[kiramon]

Repeat after me: Vanilla raids were never hard.

Not that they were hard (mc was a weekend Altman raid by this patch version); however, most who say this never cleared anything right after its release in classic and just blamed their “lives” and “lack of really trying” as to
L
Why they couldn’t clear them

[Video Games]

I mean considering a patch came out and all of a sudden every guild in the game started clearing it half AFK. Whether or not it's cleared isn't as relevant considering that 99% of current retail guilds haven't cleared Mythic raids of even the last tier (probably high 90%s percent of people haven't even cleared the first BFA raid on Mythic). If we're using that as an indicator, then the first BFA raid is still 100% relevant. Hell, probably more than half of players still haven't cleared Antorus on Mythic yet, maybe even higher considering mechanics still matter. Are you saying a raid from the previous expansion is still relevant in current expansion content? I mean, 75% of players didn't clear Naxx40 when it was current and the raid got removed. Does that mean in BFA, Naxx40 is still relevant?

You cannot use the clear-rate of a raid as an indicator of relevancy, otherwise too much stays relevant forever, which maybe wouldn't be a bad thing if the game was designed around that, but it's not.

By all of a sudden you mean that it took a month and a half after 1.3 for the first rag kill? You have a bad memory.

[msdos]

MC actually was never hard though. My first time in there as a shaman, I actually wasn't allowed to do anything but rez people once they died. Back then you could rez in combat, well you weren't in combat, if you stood like 60 yards away and LOS you would drop combat from the rest of the raid. I was literally assigned as OOC rezzer, I did nothing but that, not even heal.

They patched that combat drop out later. I mean, just imagine how trivial that was. It didn't matter if anyone died on Baron lol.

[Yunaqt]

The improved classes and extra debuffslots plays a part yes, but the by far biggest increase in damage comes from people actually having a clue how to gear their chars properly, use consumables, better PCs/connections and actually know how to play their classes today.

Or do you actually think that people didn't manage to improve on anything from Classic during 15 years of private server theorycrafting?


If MC had been released as it was the very first time: With the worst version of the Classic talents, the hardest version of the bosses, and the worst version of gear available, Apes would still have raped Rag. They might have used 7 days instead of 6 from the launch, but they would still have breezed through MC like the joke it is.

Pretty sure most privateservers did what I wrote above with their progressive content releases, AND further buffed all raids by a significant amount, just because they were deemed "too easy" by the community.

What was there to master?

This is rank 1 global DPS on Rag. I don't know about you, but I feel that that would have been just as easy to accomplish then as it is 15years later.

[Aggrophobic]

Starting in 1.12 patch for the release of a server is a change. It comes with class/talent/ and gear buffs that pretty drastically increase dps.

It's no secret that MC is a joke right now. First time Rag kills with no submerge, and 30 second kills on most other bosses. Mana never matters in this environment, and that is super counter to the original design of raiding MC. That has other ramifications, like mana potions and fire prot potions being worth alot less.

Blizzard was lazy. They didn't want to do a progressive patch release plan, instead giving us this. That ship has sailed, I won't dwell on that point.

So, it seems the right thing to do would be to add HP to bosses.

I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but at the very least, mana should be a concern on the first few clears, or else this all feels meaningless, like retail.

Everquest had to do the *exact* same thing, for basically the exact same reasons. Those of us who played those servers saw this, and some other issues, coming a mile away.

Mana? You stack warriors and they don't care about mana. Do you really need even more reasons to stack this class? Balance in classic is and will always be crap. This is what you wanted and it's what you'll have.

Stop asking for these silly changes.

[Daffan]

Everyone talks about it as an absolute fact that cannot be denied, im simply asking for someone to link the readily available patch notes outlining these "drastic buffs to dps". Honestly, i dont think it is asking too much at all.

Easy. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.11.0

Druids got 300% more armor
Innervate is now baseline not a 31pt talent


New ability added - Winter's Chill. = free 10% crit
Arcane Explosion is now instant cast and will no longer remove the Presence of Mind effect when used.
Evocation - Is now available to all mages (via trainer), starting at level 20.

wrath gear everywhere = BWL level spelldamage before molten core This one is so ridiculous... people with 350 spell damage doing 500dps on Rag with green/blues.

1.12 itemization =



nope no DPS increases here!

[arkanon]

Easy. https://wowwiki.fandom.com/wiki/Patch_1.11.0

Druids got 300% more armor
Innervate is now baseline not a 31pt talent


New ability added - Winter's Chill. = free 10% crit
Arcane Explosion is now instant cast and will no longer remove the Presence of Mind effect when used.
Evocation - Is now available to all mages (via trainer), starting at level 20.

wrath gear everywhere = BWL level spelldamage before molten core This one is so ridiculous... people with 350 spell damage doing 500dps on Rag with green/blues.

1.12 itemization =



nope no DPS increases here!

Nothing in there should result in the toughest content in the game getting crushed in a matter of hours, by a bunch of characters not even at max level.

To be clear, I don't think anyone is saying there was NO increase between 1.1 and 1.12. but using it as the reason the content was rolled so quickly is totally dishonest. It is constantly exaggerated and the next raids will prove this.

[zorkuus]

just blamed... “lack of really trying” as to Why they couldn’t clear them

That's actually part of the truth. People AFK'ing was a pretty common annoyance back then.

[Caperfin]

MC is the entry level raid. And skills has not skyrocketed. They pruned a lot of abilities.. current wow is a joke. all you have to do is be aware of incoming boss abilities and move away from shit. It's an arcade joke of a game. No wonder why people prefer Classic over Retail, they don't like the Counter-Strike wow has become and prefer a game that has some originality to it.

So you're saying Retail is easier/less demanding than Classic?

[MasterMirror]

Vanilla WoW is not hard, and definetly isn't harder than retail. Get over with it.