Increase boss hp in Molten Core

[time0ut]

It is an interesting inversion of retail. In BFA, only (mythic) raids are fun and interesting. In classic, on raids are boring and completely trivial.

It's actually very disappointing, but not surprising. I've already cleared MC and Only while barely paying attention. I might just level alts and go back to BFA for raids. Classic raids are just too boring to hold my attention.

[HavokHeart]

If you are going to make a claim, you need to back it up. If this is the attitude you are going with, I can claim you assaulted me. Prove you didn’t, I don’t need to back up my claim since you don’t need to back up yours.

You are also making a claim. That player's as a whole are more skilled than 2004. Seems like a difficult one to back up. The talent and itemization changes are real and happened. Your claim is imaginary.

I'm sure nothing is going to change your mind. That doesn't change the fact that your claim is conjecture and the one you are contesting has hard data.

[GhostShaman]

Starting in 1.12 patch for the release of a server is a change. It comes with class/talent/ and gear buffs that pretty drastically increase dps.

It's no secret that MC is a joke right now. First time Rag kills with no submerge, and 30 second kills on most other bosses. Mana never matters in this environment, and that is super counter to the original design of raiding MC. That has other ramifications, like mana potions and fire prot potions being worth alot less.

Blizzard was lazy. They didn't want to do a progressive patch release plan, instead giving us this. That ship has sailed, I won't dwell on that point.

So, it seems the right thing to do would be to add HP to bosses.

I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but at the very least, mana should be a concern on the first few clears, or else this all feels meaningless, like retail.

Everquest had to do the *exact* same thing, for basically the exact same reasons. Those of us who played those servers saw this, and some other issues, coming a mile away.

The difference is that everyone knows wtf they are doing. 15 years worth of data to ingest, finding the best strat to down Rags. This would be different if they had a new boss in classic style, where there was no data mining and everyone had to figure out what to do again.

[Moozart]

Starting in 1.12 patch for the release of a server is a change. It comes with class/talent/ and gear buffs that pretty drastically increase dps.

It's no secret that MC is a joke right now. First time Rag kills with no submerge, and 30 second kills on most other bosses. Mana never matters in this environment, and that is super counter to the original design of raiding MC. That has other ramifications, like mana potions and fire prot potions being worth alot less.

Blizzard was lazy. They didn't want to do a progressive patch release plan, instead giving us this. That ship has sailed, I won't dwell on that point.

So, it seems the right thing to do would be to add HP to bosses.

I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but at the very least, mana should be a concern on the first few clears, or else this all feels meaningless, like retail.

Everquest had to do the *exact* same thing, for basically the exact same reasons. Those of us who played those servers saw this, and some other issues, coming a mile away.

How many of those kills have you been a part of so far?

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You are also making a claim. That player's as a whole are more skilled than 2004. Seems like a difficult one to back up. The talent and itemization changes are real and happened. Your claim is imaginary.

I'm sure nothing is going to change your mind. That doesn't change the fact that your claim is conjecture and the one you are contesting has hard data.

Players ARE more skilled than in 2004, I can with 100% certainty say that I am a better WoW player now than even when I was clearing naxx in Vanilla, I am not going to go as far and say all players are better but your average raider that has raided since vanilla should in all accounts be a better player. We have so much more info on how to play or classes than in vanilla.

[Adoxe]

Giving them more hp isn't suddenly going to make the game difficult. No changes, bud.

[HavokHeart]

How many of those kills have you been a part of so far?

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Players ARE more skilled than in 2004, I can with 100% certainty say that I am a better WoW player now than even when I was clearing naxx in Vanilla, I am not going to go as far and say all players are better but your average raider that has raided since vanilla should in all accounts be a better player. We have so much more info on how to play or classes than in vanilla.

Mages also have a huge amount of baked in spell hit and more aoe ability than 1.1 talents. Tank threat is also Substantially higher than it was in 1.1. Mitigation is also more effective than it was in 1.1.

There are literally 100s of changes from 1.1 to 1.12. That make the game easy. IDK why this is so hard to understand.

[kyo wolfsfang]

1.12 has itemization, talents as well as other forms of nerfs to the content. Thats why people wanted gradual itemization and for dungeons that were released later to be released later. so far the only one that was held off was DM, but mara is still around. not to mention gear that didnt drop before hand from various bosses in earlier patches now do.

There are many reasons why this Frankenstein patch that is 1.12 phase 1 classic has made MC easier then it was in retail vanilla that does not include knowledge and skill of the game.

[phattsao]

An awful lot of smug retail players in this thread seem to be missing that this isn't an accurate representation of vanilla. It was never just "Mages 4TW" and killing raid bosses in 30 seconds in blue gear. Something is very wrong somewhere. This idea that "no one knew how to play" and "now we know our rotations" is laughable. Did these guys never hear of Elitist Jerks? And what rotation anyway? Frostbolt-frostbolt-frostbolt? I'll buy the idea that latency is way better now on average, but that seems to be something they could easily accommodate for with a little extra HP or something.

Whether it's 1.12 talents or incorrect damage scaling or something, they really need to get out in front of it. MC is dead on arrival, that's clear. I don't expect them to buff it after thousands of people have already waltzed in and gotten free loot. But BWL better be a lot harder, or I'm done.

Blizzard has done everything they can to screw up what should have been a really simple concept: re-release a 15 year old game so it runs well on a modern computer. We didn't ask for anything else. Yet they penny-pinched on servers, gave us layering, OP mages, nerfed raids, exp bugs, a whole new class of exploits...it's on them to fix it.

[kenn9530]

Starting in 1.12 patch for the release of a server is a change. It comes with class/talent/ and gear buffs that pretty drastically increase dps.

It's no secret that MC is a joke right now. First time Rag kills with no submerge, and 30 second kills on most other bosses. Mana never matters in this environment, and that is super counter to the original design of raiding MC. That has other ramifications, like mana potions and fire prot potions being worth alot less.

Blizzard was lazy. They didn't want to do a progressive patch release plan, instead giving us this. That ship has sailed, I won't dwell on that point.

So, it seems the right thing to do would be to add HP to bosses.

I'm not saying it has to be perfect, but at the very least, mana should be a concern on the first few clears, or else this all feels meaningless, like retail.

Everquest had to do the *exact* same thing, for basically the exact same reasons. Those of us who played those servers saw this, and some other issues, coming a mile away.

ragnaros was never hard patches help with class tuning but having 40 players that know what they are doing compared to half the raid being half useless is what makes the difference compared to vanilla.

[phattsao]

ragnaros was never hard patches help with class tuning but having 40 players that know what they are doing compared to half the raid being half useless is what makes the difference compared to vanilla.

We've all heard this strawman argument a million times now. If you really believe that...ok, good for you. But if you honestly think that the top guilds like Nihilum had "half the raid being useless" in vanilla, I have a bridge in New York that you may be interested in purchasing.

[potis]

An awful lot of smug retail players in this thread seem to be missing that this isn't an accurate representation of vanilla. It was never just "Mages 4TW" and killing raid bosses in 30 seconds in blue gear. Something is very wrong somewhere. This idea that "no one knew how to play" and "now we know our rotations" is laughable. Did these guys never hear of Elitist Jerks? And what rotation anyway? Frostbolt-frostbolt-frostbolt? I'll buy the idea that latency is way better now on average, but that seems to be something they could easily accommodate for with a little extra HP or something.

It is exactly it, if you dont want to accept it, its your problem.

99/100 Warriors were chasing Valor gear in Vanilla because they didnt know better, same with every other class, chasing their insanely mega shit dungeon set.

Even after the item upgrades in the last 2 patches, the majority was still chasing, the second version of the dungeon set, people were just utterly bad.

It wasnt until something like ~9 months into Vanilla, aka ~12 months for US release, averagely right after 1.5 released that people started going "Yo, hit rating you noob fucks" in ElitistJerks, and it wasnt until Summer 2006, that people discovered, again in Elitistjerks, "Glancing blows rage regeneration and hit is reduced with Weapon Skill, go wear Edgemaster's FFS!".

People were shit back then, period, not at skill levels, at game knowledge levels, even the theorycrafters in their majority were, for todays standards, utterly shit.

Combine that with itemization fixes, and now in 2019 you have Warriors wearing 1 plate item, compared to going for Valor shit or any other worthless plate with spirit.

PS. Was part of the 0.1%, and can definitely tell you we probably have more than 20 completely shit players even for then standards clearing most of Naxx.

[kenn9530]

We've all heard this strawman argument a million times now. If you really believe that...ok, good for you. But if you honestly think that the top guilds like Nihilum had "half the raid being useless" in vanilla, I have a bridge in New York that you may be interested in purchasing.

if you even looked at any videos the first kills of ragnaros take around the same time regardless if its classic or vanilla so while it may be a little easier with the patches there is not much difference between the two.

So its no strawman argument its actual fact, and you really think even in the better vanilla guilds that every player was good, means your very naive as vanilla was mostly a time investment, and many raid slots were filled with players they can get, even today guilds struggle to hold a 20 man team and you think any guild could maintain 40 more skilled players in vanilla.

[Jastall]

We've all heard this strawman argument a million times now. If you really believe that...ok, good for you. But if you honestly think that the top guilds like Nihilum had "half the raid being useless" in vanilla, I have a bridge in New York that you may be interested in purchasing.

Man, I saw a world second or third C'thun kill where the Mage chatted during the fight, had to reapply oils mid-pull, and had to do little but press 1 at the boss all fight long yet somehow fucked that up a few times.

Yes, players were shit back then compared to now, so was game knowledge and theorycrafting. That accounts for the fast and easy kills more than anything else.

[apelsinjuice]

An awful lot of smug retail players in this thread seem to be missing that this isn't an accurate representation of vanilla. It was never just "Mages 4TW" and killing raid bosses in 30 seconds in blue gear. Something is very wrong somewhere. This idea that "no one knew how to play" and "now we know our rotations" is laughable. Did these guys never hear of Elitist Jerks? And what rotation anyway? Frostbolt-frostbolt-frostbolt? I'll buy the idea that latency is way better now on average, but that seems to be something they could easily accommodate for with a little extra HP or something.

Whether it's 1.12 talents or incorrect damage scaling or something, they really need to get out in front of it. MC is dead on arrival, that's clear. I don't expect them to buff it after thousands of people have already waltzed in and gotten free loot. But BWL better be a lot harder, or I'm done.

Blizzard has done everything they can to screw up what should have been a really simple concept: re-release a 15 year old game so it runs well on a modern computer. We didn't ask for anything else. Yet they penny-pinched on servers, gave us layering, OP mages, nerfed raids, exp bugs, a whole new class of exploits...it's on them to fix it.

Classic is exactly as vanilla, take off your nostalgia classes, most played WoW vanilla as their first MMO, internet had almost no guides, people played on laggy old pcs with bad internet and often at least 10 people in a raid was semi afk during the boss, and people didnt know about best classes/specs min max back then so you had a lot of shit classes compared to now with stacking 30 mages per raid

vanilla was never hard.

[Zentail]

https://www.warcraftlogs.com/zone/ra...8#metric=speed
At least inform yourself.

At least read the whole thread and inform yourself.

4 patches had come out since HFC released by the point those logs are posted. Between those 4 patches and hotfixes, nerfs had been issued to HFC, as a whole, several times. These patches also released at a rate of which content patches released in Classic. Classic would have been roughly on 1.6 if the same amount of time had passed for comparison. During 1.6, players were clearing MC with 30 seconds-1 minute boss fights (TOPS, there were plenty faster when people were actually geared). You're also on the train of comparing WoD, the expansion considered terrible, to Vanilla, the game people are over-nostalgic about and don't remember crap accurately but is supposedly God's gift to Earth. WoD had a legendary ring that, when upgraded all the way (which it was for each person of these speed kill raids) had more stats on it than just about every other piece of gear equipped combined. The clicky effect, also, amplified per person that had it equipped, which there was nothing compared to that in Vanilla.

TL;DR When HFC was still current content and relevant, it was not blown up in anywhere near as fast as people in this thread are claiming. You guys don't realize you're LITERALLY PROVING my point as to why MC wasn't relevant so quickly.

[Uoyredrum]

So just to be clear, your argument was "yeah, vanilla is extremely easy, on an entirely unrelated note, here is a obscenely overgeared group killing dated content that has been on farm for months, but don't you DARE say I am comparing them, I am NOT".

I'm not going to keep arguing with you because it's clear that you don't even read posts, you just take away things that weren't said and argue against strawmen the entire time. I'm just not going to spend all of my time correcting you because you can't bother to read.

[Nefastus]

I am sorry but Classic is not Vanilla. We know more now. We know what to do, bring, avoid and more. The content in classic has gone from a general challenge to a replay, a rerun. Our battles will never reach what they used to back then.

This... Plus the fact the patch classic started with is easy mode compared to the first patches in vanilla (tons of talent fixes, more debuff slots on bosses, etc).

[arkanon]

Lol, nope.

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Dude, you got crushed. Don't move the goalposts now.

Go back to the start. I asked for proof of drastic and dramatic DPS increases. Ppl linked me tanking changes, some priest changes, and minor class changes for 1-2 classes, none of which have any major impact. The goalposts remain exactly where they were to begin with - asking for proof of the EXTREME dps increases people talk about like they are just an accepted fact, without any proof at all.

[Caperfin]

This... Plus the fact the patch classic started with is easy mode compared to the first patches in vanilla (tons of talent fixes, more debuff slots on bosses, etc).

Totally agree

[barackohmama]

It's almost like Vanilla was never hard and much of the modern perception of it is tinted by nostalgia

Cause everything that matters are entry level raids? You still couldn't go in and roflstomp full BRD in 10 min at lvl 55, like you can with all retail dungeons.