I am trying to understand the motivation..

[Monster Hunter]

I dislike both equally. But flogging retail atm is like beating a dead horse that had a shitty life befor it died, the horses wife left and took the kids, its spiraled into gambling debt and then tossed its self of a mororway bridge befor getting pissed on by a bunch of drunk teenagers as a dare.

Classic is a new horse with toxic personality issues that will eventualy lead into a downward spiral towards a motorway bridge, so I'm getting my flogging in befor it's smells of white lightning laced urine...

But nah on a serious note I'm convinced wow and wow classic will end up killing each other.

[anon5123]

I'm convinced wow and wow classic will end up killing each other.

...but they're both the same game subscription. Someone leaving Classic for Retail, or vice versa, does not result in any loss or gain.

[oplawlz]

By that logic then there is nothing to be gained by praising Classic WoW either since it's not going to change. It's a moot point.
[ . . .snip]

I agree that the competition between the two is silly, but fundamentally the two simply aren't the same. One can change and one cannot. I never advocate silencing any opinion, but I'm not going to pretend that people who have nothing to say except shit on a game are worth listening to. That goes for retail as well as classic - the difference, as I mentioned, is that negative feedback about retail can still be constructive. Negative feedback about classic is pure pettiness.

[Grogo]

By that logic then there is nothing to be gained by praising Classic WoW either since it's not going to change. It's a moot point.

My personal thoughts about this (which are somewhat different than what my responsibilities entail):

This forum has been what forums are for some time: a mixture of people who mistakenly believe that to praise something they have to criticize something else. A mixture of people who think that the two versions of the game are at war with each other (they are not) so they should be at war with everyone who disagrees with them (which is pointless). Forums are what they are: People with different opinions read and post to them to express how they feel, what they think, what they predict, or in some cases just to get attention.

The thread premise is that this is all one-way. It is not, never has been and it's a bit dishonest to imply that it is. There's plenty of blame to go around if one is inclined to be assigning blame. I'm fairly certain that if some rule were made that accounts that repeatedly express negative opinions about the game need to be silenced and if that rule were applied equally to both versions of the game that would be a problem. This isn't some safe space where only positive views are allowed.

Therefore I'm not certain what the actual point of this thread truly is.

Criticise Classic where it's warranted is fair. Making it a purpose to be in so many threads and shitting on it constantly and at every chance is just overkill and there seems to be some sort of motivation behind someone who is doing that over and over. Some posters are going out of their way to deliberately ensure they post negative shit in many threads, they hate it yet are here more than any other forum I suspect. I am pointing that out, they have an agenda of some sort. This was never geared towards someone posting a negative thing about Classic. Who gives a shit about that? I am talking about those who have to be in every thread or create a thread specifically to make sure we know it all sucks. Over and over again. Those types. Shit maybe I am delusional and am the only one who is seeing that type here. I do not think so though.

But enough about that, what many people want to talk about is how this is done on the Retail forum becasue that makes it ok then. But it's not happening over there I bet..not nearly at the level here.

[Thraendil]

Alright, since you didnt answer back with the usual expected response i will give you a proper one.

The game has changed to the standards of 2015+ gaming, this means the game resets every patch cycle so people that stopped/quit/came back after years, can catch up and be relevant to the game in less than a monthly sub (If they have the skill to do so), i said relevant, not competitive, there is a massive difference.

This is why gear resets so often and so much, asking people that havent played in 5 years, to take 6 months to catch up, and by the time they catch up, the next gear cycle begins, its absurd for 2019 standards, thats all.

Is it good for the game? Not for the old blood RPG players, but for 2019? Yes, its good, its also great for my alts, yo!

Gear is no longer as relevant as before, you ARE supposed to DEVOUR the content you want to DEVOUR, and then unsub/resub or whatever you want to do, Blizzard doesnt care to keep you in the long term, it cares to make the over 150m accounts created over the last 15 years, to randomly resub and throw money at them.

Now thats the answer to why the gear is so linear/easy to get, because its no longer a thing required to enjoy aspects of the game.

Gear does have value, it just doesnt have Vanilla value, someone thats wearing raid gear, wont get to 1 shot someone that doesnt, this has been true for expansions now, no idea why people still havent realized why these changes exist.

Yeah, i also had fun in 2006, going 2-3 Rank14s/Naxx geared characters vs 50 undergeared 60s or leveling scrubs averagely 52 level in WPL flight path, doesnt mean it mattered.

When my newly dinged alt, struggles with Narjatar mobs, (for a hour or two, then off to M+ land!) compared to the main or alt thats properly gear, the difficulty is there, it just disappears with gear scaling, as it always did, the difference is, the gear scaling takes a month(For people that dont have people to simply run M+ with), not 10 as it did before catch up mechanics were introduced.

Also as i said above, you are mistaking "content" with "Graphical Model".

If you believe the LFR graphical model, that deals 15% of the damage of the Mythic model, with some of the latest bosses the last 2 expansions with 50% of their abilities removed because LFR players cant deal with those mechanics or in different rotation, is the same then i cant help you.

Its quite simple though, the higher you go in difficulty, the more random and forced overlap of abilities happen, thats when actually difficulty/skill comes into play.

Its you cant understand how (In numbers of BFA) an ability that deals 30k AOE in LFR, hitting players that have 250K-280K, is the same as, the same ability hitting for 230K on 350K HP players, with the very high chance of overlap from another ability in many cases, or forced overlaps that will always happen, and if you dont deal with them you wipe....Well then, your math is a bit off.


Been saying it since ICC dungeons, only reasons these many complains exist from the 99% is because they chose to put catch up mechanics into the game instead of letting people rot in irrelevant content as they seemed to love doing.

I certainly agree that making it easier to get back into the fray might be better from a financial point of view (easier to lure in players). However, that doesn't change the fact that having gear being relevant for a longer period makes for better progression. My personal feeling is that patch cycles are far too short to make previous content outdated, but this specific point might be a tad more subjective of course. However, it seems like a lot of people share this sentiment. If evey raid matter throughout the expansion, the progression curve will be far longer than just one tier being relevant. Of course, somewhere in between might be the "optimal" progression curve, but I am certain that one tier is far too short.

And yes, there is some difference between a mythic level player and fresh 120 player doing Nazjatar for example. However, it is far from the difference you had in Vanilla, and you quickly gain epics to catch up in retail, which you can't in classic as good gear is hard to get.

Of course, it is true that if you view doing the same raid again on a more difficult level as progression, one could argue that retail has a lot more progression than classic. My view is still that new graphical model, as you put it, is an important factor as it is an RPG we're talking about. So yes, if we view mythic as new content, you are absolutely right.

[Noxina]

Well, it is actually really simple;

People are morons.


For some reason people have this believe that what they like more, is the superior game, and have an urge to enlighten the crowd to see it in their view. "Don't waste time on Classic, it's boring, and you will burn out!" or "Don't play retail, because all you do is farm azerite power!" etc.
You see it on forums all over the internet "don't play fortnite, it's a shit game!" "don't play minecraft, there isn't anything to do in it!" or "Justin Bieber is a moron, and I don't like his music so you wont either!"(as I wrote this, I realized I haven't heard anything about him in ages. Most likely because people stopped writing hate about him, which felt was 90% of the publizity he got).
In other words - it's easy to be negative about things. And people have a strong believe that their opinion is superior, or even that it matters.

[BananaHandsB]

There are people who spew the same "negative shit" about retail (and have been for the past 15 years). Some people are just toxic assholes. I think they all have their own reasons, but mainly it comes from deep seeded insecurity. The idea that if someone doesn't share their opinion it somehow threatens its validity, so they vehemently bash anyone or any other opinion that doesn't align with their own.

[Echocho]

Probably the same reason why classic players shit on retail

[Monster Hunter]

...but they're both the same game subscription. Someone leaving Classic for Retail does not result in any loss or gain.

i made a post in a diff thread explaining my rationality. but as a short round up.

guilds have caved and gone on hiatus for classic, i quit wow because my guild stopped raiding and im not planing to return, couple of friends did to, we have no interest in classic so were playing other stuff. this happened months ago but the story is the same, every time a guild stops raiding, people either go on break or find a new guild, many don't return from breaks till the next expansion, many never again. thats how wow has bled most of its subs according to ghost crawler over the years.

what classic has created is a situation where the loss of players in retail during content droughts will be accelerated, where some members will not invest time time needed to progress retail raids and thus create the situations in retail where guilds end up going on hiatus and collapsing.

in the inverse, when 8.3 or 9.0 is released and most retail patches like that, classic will lose players to retail, this will destabilize community there, causes progress loss on bosses, back fill, e.t.c all things that lead to people saying fuck it and quitting.

this flip flopping will leave both community's constantly unstable and for the flip floppers them selves they will find after a while there losing there raid spots in both games and im 90% sure in a few months we will see raid guilds requiring 100% dedication to classic or retail to be in the core raid team. floppers that cant find spots in either tbh will eventually quit.

all of this will eventually lead to an acceleration in the downward trend of wow subs until wow as an ip is no longer financially viable and the plug is pulled on the lot.

[Grogo]

Probably the same reason why classic players shit on retail

But but what about them? Whataboutisms..the worst

[Hubbl3]

People were shitting on retail way before classic was announced

People were shitting on every iteration of WoW, including Vanilla, TBC and WotLK. :P

[McNeil]

What baffles me the most is that there are often the same people visiting every Classic thread while they obviously hate the game with a passion. Thats just a very unhealthy obsession to have. I hate Call of Duty games and I don't go over their forums and spam in every thread that I hate CoD. Though a difference here is that Classic might be outshining BFA, so it only triggers them to make these posts.

[Akka]

it's probably not about an agenda, and a lot more about them being disappointed in classic in one way or another and needing a place to vent about it.

Except that's not it.
There is a number of posters that were disappointed in Classic. Usually, they post once or twice, explain that they didn't like this, or that they were hyped but found out it was just nostalgia, or that they missed QoL, or whatever. These posts mostly go without fanfare nor trolling, the poster having said his piece leave, and nothing happens.

But the people the OP speak about are all BUT that. They massively (only ?) tend to be people who hated Classic to begin with, so there is no "disappointment" part (except maybe the fact that Classic has been a huge success and THAT is their disappointment ?).
These guys mostly post to shit on Classic, and in fact mostly post in the Classic forum itself as a whole (many accounts have a 90-95 % ratio of Classic forum-related posts, nearly every single of them being to say something negative or mock/contradict a Classic player).

If you doubt what I say, just look at the post history of the most frequent haters. It's not really possible to caricature it, reality goes beyond already.

- - - Updated - - -

What baffles me the most is that there are often the same people visiting every Classic thread while they obviously hate the game with a passion. Thats just a very unhealthy obsession to have. I hate Call of Duty games and I don't go over their forums and spam in every thread that I hate CoD. Though a difference here is that Classic might be outshining BFA, so it only triggers them to make these posts.

Pretty much this.

[Trend]

I am trying to understand the motivation of people posting negative shit about Classic over and over. What is the agenda here. This thread is not about Retail versus Classic but rather what is the motivation and agenda of the same people repeatedly going out of their way to ensure that Classic sucks and why it sucks and why we should all think it sucks and that we all suck for loving it.

These same posters will vehemently state over and over, in various threads why Classic is just so shitty. That Classic players should not like it and here are 1000 reasons why they shouldn't like it. Where is all this angst coming from? What is the reasoning that some people need NEED to make sure we know Classic sucks. In the Classic WoW discussion forum no less.

Is this coming from a place of fear? Jealousy? Spite? What is the motivation here (to the people who are habitual haters of Classic)? Talk to us. Why do you feel that burning desire to make sure we all know it (Classic) is so bad. I am trying to understand.

You have over 2,700 posts on MMO-C alone and yet you still don't understand how public forums on the internet work? Or are you some kind of alien or robot and you have no comprehension of basic aspects of humanity?

Personally, I am a human and I do use the internet without blinders so I'm confused about what you don't understand.

[potis]

I certainly agree that making it easier to get back into the fray might be better from a financial point of view (easier to lure in players). However, that doesn't change the fact that having gear being relevant for a longer period makes for better progression. My personal feeling is that patch cycles are far too short to make previous content outdated, but this specific point might be a tad more subjective of course. However, it seems like a lot of people share this sentiment. If evey raid matter throughout the expansion, the progression curve will be far longer than just one tier being relevant. Of course, somewhere in between might be the "optimal" progression curve, but I am certain that one tier is far too short.

And yes, there is some difference between a mythic level player and fresh 120 player doing Nazjatar for example. However, it is far from the difference you had in Vanilla, and you quickly gain epics to catch up in retail, which you can't in classic as good gear is hard to get.

Of course, it is true that if you view doing the same raid again on a more difficult level as progression, one could argue that retail has a lot more progression than classic. My view is still that new graphical model, as you put it, is an important factor as it is an RPG we're talking about. So yes, if we view mythic as new content, you are absolutely right.

Yeah, and with the old model, pre-catch up gear and pre-LFR out of those <insert 120-150+million accounts here> only the 1% gets to see them, which was the reasoning of the changes.

Same logic as how Karazhan in TBC "was the best raid ever" cause instead of people entering it the first 3 months as intended, the majority entered throughout the expansion, and the other content were never seen.

The progression argument is a weird thing, cause WoW is a different game now, its made to cater to everyone, its like 80% aRPG now, and 5% leftover RPG elements.

They could block a lot of things by simply saying "You either do one, or none" but thats against 2019 standards.

[Tarba]

First of all, I haven't raided in classic, or even completed all zones before TBC hit, so it's definately not old content for me.

Secondly, as you progress your gear, you can do more and more raids. That is meaningful progression. You get stronger, can defeat more opponents both in PvE (outside as well as inside raid and dungeons) and in PvP. Gold and professions can both help you get an advantage. They are impactful. Sure, some patches gave catch up mechanics, but they didn't completely invalidate all previous content, like patches in retail.

I absolutely agree that retail requires more use of strategy, and that it is much more difficult to clear mythic. However, you're still doing the same boss fights as before, just a more difficult flavor. This might make sense if it was a shooter or action game we talk about, but does it really make sense for an RPG? Gear and progression should matter.

In other words, the importance of strategy is absolutely not bad, but if it is only relevant if you want to do the same content all over again, it is really pointless. Superior use of strategy should help you progress further, to new content, just like gear, profession and gold. It should get you somewhere.

The difference between us, as I understand it, is that I don't view doing the same fight all over again as progression. Would superior use of strategy push you forward to new content, that would be just fine.

Nothing you say make sense.
In classic you HAVE to do the same content over and over again to get the stuff to go to the next content. In retail you have to do the same content over and over again to get the stuff to see the next content. That's the same, except in retail you can chose the difficulty you actually enjoy. You are not stuck in normal like in classic.

If you want to raid normal, have a little difficulty but not much no need to go further, Stay in retail normal or classic. If you want to do heroic because you think strat should matter a bit more you basically go in normal once or twice max, if you want to do mythic you do heroic then you go mythic. You should have allready farmed the stuff to do.
If you are fresh 120, you have multiple ways to stuff yourself so you could do the difficulty you want.

It seems that you are in a weird world where people have to do lfr, normal heroic and mythic. No. You just go in the difficulty that suits you. And if you think that you are good enought to have a bit more challenge that you can enjoy you can go have fun in a difficulty higher and not getting stuck in the exact same thing to farm.

[TwoMana]

If you do not get the context and time frame and other obvious shit then you do not have the bandwidth to get it. You took the time to try and find something on me, yeah right you aren't pissy about the post and thought one from 3 years ago in a different context is something that might "get me". That's the reason, we both know it.

I see, so the motivation to question shit-vomit-bombs-drops on the game is only valid if it's someone questioning Classic. Right.

[Grogo]

I see, so the motivation to question shit-vomit-bombs-drops on the game is only valid if it's someone questioning Classic. Right.

Just go re-read the original post, you don't get it at all.

[TwoMana]

What baffles me the most is that there are often the same people visiting every Classic thread while they obviously hate the game with a passion. Thats just a very unhealthy obsession to have. I hate Call of Duty games and I don't go over their forums and spam in every thread that I hate CoD. Though a difference here is that Classic might be outshining BFA, so it only triggers them to make these posts.

That's the same thing in the other parts of this forum as well (especially in the OT threads). But that thing is - there's only a handful of "active" WoW posters here. Couple of hundred at most. That's why you see same old names engaging in same old threads with their same old opinions. This place is not quite as "vibrant" as it maybe once was.

[mvaliz]

How does it debunk what I said? I removed it because it's wrong.

You removed it because I was right, and you were afraid to debate/discuss the idea as you know you're wrong and just wanted to insult post me instead.

Reported for you for Trolling... Since that's basically what you admitted you just did.